Lesifoere said:
No. It's the fundamental self-contradiction that makes this whole system not work: faith does not exist in FR, even though faith is supposed to be what gives gods power.
Is it faith or devotion? I don't understand the way the ruleset works here, so I'm not going to argue that particular point. To the extent you're trumping my arguments with recourse to AD&D arcana, I'll have to just concede. If FR gods require "belief in the absence of proof" in order to exist then, yes, I agree the Wall is a pretty silly way to go about getting it.
I'm beginning to wonder if you're some sort of religious fundamentalist IRL, because you're sounding more and more defensive/vehement in your dismissal of... fictional atheists.
Err, I'm an atheist--or an agnostic or whatever the nonmilitant nonbeliever calls himself these days--in real life because
in real life there is no evidence of gods existing. In FR, there is ample evidence of it.
As I said, the flaw in your position is that your logic seems to run: "Atheism in real life is rational, so it would be unjust if such rational people were punished in the afterlife. Atheism is punished in the afterlife in FR, therefore that system must be unjust." But, of course, atheism
isn't rational in FR, any more than not believing in science is rational IRL.
What material benefits are these, exactly?
Healing, blessing, resurrection, curing diseases, smiting undead, etc., etc.
Are you even that familiar with the setting's canon? I mean, not that being familiar with FR is something to take pride in--I don't--but if we're going to discuss FR, it might help to know what you're talking about. You seem to assume every single person in FR has access to sourcebooks and novels, which is a stupid assumption.
Err, no. I've played a handful of AD&D computer RPGs. But here I thought we were debating the merits of the Wall of the Faithless
as depicted in MOTB. If it turns out that in the various manuals you keep piled up in your room the Wall is made of Munster cheese and is populated with demignomes playing bagpipes, then, well, I guess that's pretty silly.
[The Wall] limits player choices and forces them to choose patron deities? Some people do roleplay with those D&D things, you know, and they resent this sort of stupidity.
Huh? How does the Wall limit player choices? Because when your fictitious character dies in the distant future, which you'll never actually play, he gets stuck in some wall? And that makes you squeamish? Roleplay the setting. If you're too scared of the Wall to be an atheist, then worship Ao or something. If you're too petulant to worship a god even if it means going to the Wall, then live with the consequences. You don't need to have your fantasy cake and eat it too.
Zero Credibility said:
And let me ask you: what about those that never had a chance to worship a god but are punished for it all the same (and according to Kaelyn there are whole planes like this)? How is the wall fair for them?
Because if there's one thing that's clear from Kaelyn, it's that she should be trusted to provide accurate an unbiased information about the Wall.