Hullo all. Ghostdog pointed me here so I thought I'd drop by and answer your concerns. Note that I did answer a few of them in the original thread ghostdog linked to in detail, so if you want more, feel free to hop on over and add to the discussion there.
Everyone seems to agree to the Consistent Hit Point change, so I won't dwell on that, other than to say that if that is implemented by itself, then it makes the issues that the THACO fix attempts to resolve even worse.
Err, right. Because Torment is all about ThAC0 and Hit Points?
Of course it isn't it's primary focus, but it's not like a Fixpack can just ignore those issues. Have you noticed how many people here are saying the combat is too easy/frivolous? This actually goes to resolving that. And if you seriously don't care about THACO and hit points, then I'd think a change to how they are handled wouldn't bother you
I've had no problems switching to mage ASAP,
You can do so, but even if you go to a mage right away, the THACO issue is still relevant. As I pointed out in the thread, if you play the whole game as a mage, and then have -just- the single conversation with Vhailor that requires you to be a fighter, that will suddenly give you a +3 THACO boost, +3 strength and half an attack per round. From a single conversation that has nothing to do with combat, that you could not have had as a mage (so you're not sacrificing any experience), you are suddenly a kensai-mage with an impressive THACO and bonus attacks per round. Stay in fighter another few minutes, and you have a boost to your THACO of -5-. I submit it is incredibly unbalanced that you can turn your pure mage into a whirling dervish of combat in a matter of minutes.
I'm all in favor of changes that make things less irritating for obsessive-compulsive min/max-ers. I... I still have bouts sometimes.
Heh... not sure where the sarcasm is going on that one... but if anything, this makes the game less amenable to min-maxers. The answer to the min-maxer in PS:T up until these changes is incredibly obvious - 13 fighter, X thief, 22 mage. No other build is nearly as powerful.
The classes are nicely balanced if they don't overlap. With the THACO issue, they overlap such that you can get the simultaneous very high THACO of a fighter and the very high AC of a mage (mages can easily get 5 better AC than a fighter). That combination makes the build so powerful that, in fact, it makes the combat in the game trivially easy for that one build. I dunno about you guys, but any time I've played a mage in that way, I've never had to cast a spell to win a combat. Ever. Every single fight is a simple "Select All, Attack" meleefest, though maybe you might have to kite the Fiend FMB around... joy.
Sounds pretty pointless, just set the combat difficulty to easy instead
This confuses me. The effect of this will be the exact opposite. If you think a mage with better hit points but a THACO of 18 is going to make combat easier, well, I don't agree. Now if I were doing the Consistent HP change (which is definitely a bug, confirmed by Chris Avellone) -without- the THACO change, then yes, kensai-mages in this game become absurdly powerful and easily exploitable.
As if anyone ever had difficulty with combat in PsT. Who fucking cares, rly.
Exactly. Thus the nerf. Cause overall, frankly, that's what this is.
then whats the point of dual leveling?
Options. You can approach a situation, decide what class would handle it better, and switch to it. You just don't get to enjoy the full benefits of multiple classes at the same time. If that were the intent, then TNO -would- just be a Fighter-Mage like Dak'kon.
Especially considering the 9-13 comment.
Not sure which one you're referring to.
But thats my point. I have atleast something from those levels (time i spent learning) of fighter class. I think this includes thaco with particular weapon too, like knife - which you can use as a mage.
As I pointed out, you can spend exactly 5 minutes "learning" to be a fighter in a single conversation and wind up with the THACO of a 10th level fighter. The experience at the endgame is so high that getting a very high THACO for your thief or mage is completely trivial. And it makes TNO overpowered and imbalanced compared to any of the combat challenges in the game.
Not sure what the knife objection is about. You do get to keep the bonuses from weapon proficiencies in any class you're in.
With this new system i would be left with nothing after i change into a mage.
You would actually get to keep any increase to your number of attacks from your fighter levels (boosts at levels 7 and 13) as both thief and mage. Which is a lot more than you get to keep from either other class switching to a fighter.
Instead he could have added a possibility to play as a fighter/mage, like Dakkon.
The game already lets you be a fighter mage for all intents and purposes. It actually virtually forces you to be. If you have that single fighter-only conversation with Vhailor, you're automatically at a 13 THACO. Spend 3 minutes more and you're at an 11 THACO, which a mage isn't entitled to till level 28.
And note, the answer is not to fix the experience reward in that conversation with Vhailor. His xp reward is not particularly large at that point in the game. The point is that at that point in the game, you can spend 5 minutes as a fighter doing damn near -anything-, not even fighting, and you have for all intents and purposes become a full fledged fighter-mage. The rest of the game is not balanced towards this. It makes the combat part of the game trivially easy, as virtually everyone here has confirmed that it is.
So I toss the prior comment back atcha... if you -don't- want the combat balanced in the game, then just put the difficulty slider to easy
Qwinn
