Planescape: Torment - Profound changes

[hiver]

But it makes sense if you train as a fighter to have those abilities. Why would becoming a mage affect my strength or how good i am with a weapon?

you see, in those Black Isle games even bugs actually caused something good to happen.


Thats what i thought happens if you switch your class later on so i didnt do it. I though i would loose most of each class advancement.


The whole game actually allows you to learn multiple experiences and abilities which is consistent with one of the themes of the main story.

But hey, its your fixpack. It certainly needs to be playtested to see is it good. And i suppose there will be enough people who will like any change as an excuse to play it again.

 

[Qwinn]

But it makes sense if you train as a fighter to have those abilities. Why would becoming a mage affect my strength or how good i am with a weapon?

Chris Avellone expressed a similar concern when I brought it up with him. Here's what he said:

I'd agree with you on #1 (the HP bug), and #2 (the THACO bug) makes sense from a balance standpoint, although aesthetically it feels odd to me - I could go either way, however, so I don't have a firm judgment on it, so I'd leave it up to you (it's odd that suddenly when you switch a class, you suddenly forget how to fight).

My reply:

I know what you're saying about #2, but if we let that aesthetic consideration rule the day, then why should TNO fighter or mage forget how to stealth or backstab? Seems even weirder to forget how to -hide- or stick someone in the back than forgetting how to fight someone face to face, ya know? Either way, you've got him inexplicably forgetting his other class benefits in at least some cases. My way, at least it's consistent between the 3 classes.

His reply to that:

Fair enough!

I'll also add that a very plausible explanation is that when he's in a given class he's more "in tune" with the subconscious memories of a past incarnation that focused on that class, crowding out the others.

Qwinn

 

[Qwinn]

By the way, due to various time constraints and promises to keep, I'm going to be releasing version 3.0 of my mods very soon - possibly tonight, if not, Wednesday night. It will NOT include the two fixes under discussion in this thread. So if you really hate them, you'd best download that version and keep it safe, cause in two weeks or so I'll be releasing 3.1 with those two fixes. I do not plan on keeping version 3.0 available after that time.

Qwinn

 

[mondblut]

This whole silly shit with being forbidden to use old class abilities after dualclassing is all wrong in computer RPGs. AD&D proper doesn't "forbid" an ex-fighter to fight with his old sword, it just doesn't give him experience to his new class when he falls back to old tricks. I guess that's something too hard for a machine capable of 10 million instructions per second to calculate.

Even that doesn't make much sense, though. A mage *would* get experience for fighting an enemy with a staff or a dagger. If he has a prior experience in that weapon as a fighter, is he supposed to restrain his blows or something to "get experience"? Ok... thinking logically, he wouldn't learn that much indeed, but restraining hands hardly helps to remedy that.

...anyway, so anything that makes some of those stupid restrictions on old class abilities go is welcome. Keeping best THAC0 = good, demanding of character to restrain his blows = bad.

 

[hiver]

You see ? Me and Chris Avellone think the same. :wiggles eyebrows:

That automatically gives me +25 skill check boost so im always twice as right as you are. Even when im wrong.

What you should have done is allow some skills of the thief to remain to even everything out.

It would have gone better with TNOs... specialty.

 

[Jaesun]

By the way, due to various time constraints and promises to keep, I'm going to be releasing version 3.0 of my mods very soon - possibly tonight, if not, Wednesday night. It will NOT include the two fixes under discussion in this thread. So if you really hate them, you'd best download that version and keep it safe, cause in two weeks or so I'll be releasing 3.1 with those two fixes. I do not plan on keeping version 3.0 available after that time.

OK That I REALLY do not like. These changes should be an option. Such as an option [Change HP to 1-10 per level?] and the [THAC0 change?].

Options are good.

 

[scient]

There seems to be an argument "this is pointless" fix and why bother. Well, so far I've fixed every reported engine bug (and a number of unreported) since 2003. The only major issue I haven't fixed are NVIDIA driver DX 8 glitches which are too complex to deal with on assembly level. I've kind of hit the bottom of the barrel so to speak. All the important engine issues such as dialog checks not including bonuses, lack of morale system (Dak's sword/quest line), limit of journal entries, horror on PC's, etc have all been resolved.

This next release has been a culmination of work by Qwinn and myself since this past summer so I do hope that it makes PST experience even better than it already is (if that's possible).

 

[Qwinn]

What you should have done is allow some skills of the thief to remain to even everything out.

Then he would be positively freaking Godlike. With everybody in total agreement that the combat is already way too freaking easy. Um. NO. If you just want an IWIN button, go buy the Sword of Whynn from Vrischika.

Incidentally, I guess the point that every trainer -tells- you "You have to give up your current class" when you switch classes is immaterial to the intent of the designers? Cause your point is, they shouldn't have to give up anything. What's the point? If you want to just be a multi-class fighter-mage-thief, go play Baldur's Gate and make one. TNO is supposed to be unique, and your suggestion would make him just another multiclass F/M/T.

And you apparently waltzed right over the point that Chris Avellone accepted my rebuttal to your point. And agreed that what I'm doing makes sense from a balance standpoint. I don't think he'd agree that yours would help with balance.

It would have gone better with TNOs... specialty.

You're kind of arguing a tautology here. The only evidence that multiclassing is TNO's specialty is this bug that lets you keep fighter abilities with your other classes. There's twice as much evidence that that -wasn't- supposed to be his "specialty" because you lose all thief and mage abilities when you switch out of those classes.

His gift is that he can focus and remember skills from long ago incarnations that make him effective in 3 different classes. There is nothing whatsoever about that that requires that he can remember skills from EVERY incarnation simultaneously.

Options are good.

Sorry. You're asking me to deliberately keep the option to maintain a known, confirmed bug. You want a Fixpack, but you don't want it to fix the bugs you like? Oh well. Sorry. Some bugs make you more powerful, some bugs make you less powerful. I fix both. If I only fix the bugs that make you less powerful, the game becomes even more trivially easy and boring. Feel free to make your own Fixpack where the only thing you do is continue to empower already overpowered characters, and enjoy.

Qwinn

 

[hiver]

Hey, all mad props to you for doing all that hard work for everybody, for free.

Ill certainly get the version without those changes.
It would be nice if it was an option, though.

 

[Qwinn]

*shrug* The consensus around here seems to be that you all only like certain kinds of bugs to be fixed, but don't get rid of the exploits. Basically, if they make you more powerful, don't fix it. That's fine. I hope someday someone who agrees with you will come along and make that sort of game for you. It would bore the living crap out of me.

The HP bug is obviously a bug. The THACO bug makes it literally impossible to be a pure class mage or rogue. I can't believe there's this much resistance to the idea that that's obviously not how the game was intended to be.

Qwinn

 

[hiver]

Dont be such a poofter. Most people clearly stated they like it because it fits with some logic if not with those D&D rules.

Your closing argument shouldn't be a cheap shot at undermining our motives by pretending we were saying something else.

 

[Qwinn]

What did I say that was wrong? They like certain bugs. They want a Fixpack that lets them selectively choose which bugs to fix and which ones not to.

Frankly, I -do- think it's because they like having an overpowered uber kensai-mage. Every argument so far has amounted to as much.

You've had 8 years to play with one. *shrug* I simply don't get the appeal, and am not going to go out of my way to make old bugs that should never have existed still available to everyone.

Qwinn

 

[Pastel]

The HP bug is obviously a bug. The THACO bug makes it literally impossible to be a pure class mage or rogue. I can't believe there's this much resistance to the idea that that's obviously not how the game was intended to be.

Qwinn

Should you be a pure-class Mage or Rogue anyway, considering your past?

 

[Qwinn]

I think I already answered that one.

1) It totally screws up game balance. Everyone here has agreed that it is imbalanced as is.

2) It is entirely plausible, and supported by the dialogue of every trainer in the game, and the fact that you lose all mage and thief abilities when you leave those classes, that TNO cannot focus on remembering every skill of every incarnation at once. If these bugs had never existed in the first place, there's no other in game justification for it. The only in-game justification for what you're arguing for is the bugs themselves.

Qwinn

 

[elander_]

I think this would greatly improve gameplay (and make the manual actually be correct). What do you all think?

Do it man. This dual multi fagotry is irrelevant.

 

[Helton]

Why do these threads always go the exact same way?

 

[David Xachaturian]

The less changes made to the original, the better.

 

[hiver]

when you leave those classes, that TNO cannot focus on remembering every skill of every incarnation at once

Thats a complete invention. Leveling up or skills in the game arent tied to remembering past reincarnations in that way. You simply invented that because it fits your arguments as a justification.

TNO learns the skills directly, by training or paying for them. Not because he remembers more.
When he remembers something that doesnt give him new levels or new classes or their complete abilities. Just some smaller boons, spells or exp. etc.
His memory is fractured until he absorbs his past reincarnations in the Fortress.


And i did say that your idea is worthy of trying out. Maybe it will play just fine and be enjoyable. But i see no sense in forcing every player to play by those rules. Forced to be single class only.

 

[Ravn7]

I have a question. What happens when you gain levels but don't level your character up until you switch to another class?

 

[Qwinn]

TNO learns the skills directly, by training or paying for them. Not because he remembers more.
When he remembers something that doesnt give him new levels or new classes or their complete abilities. Just some smaller boons, spells or exp. etc.

False. A very very significant portion of your quest xp comes from regained memories. Far far far more than you get from combat, for example. And it is that xp that determines your level and skill in the class you're in when you get that xp.

Go get mage training from Mebbeth, and read the dialogue where she shows you a scroll and you remember how to read it. (The same dialogue occurs when -any- mage trains you.) Every one of those dialogues makes my point explicitly. If it weren't for your memories, you'd have needed to spend months of training just to read the scroll she shows you.

Think about the statement you made. "When he remembers something, that doesn't give him new levels... just... exp.". Right. As opposed to the other way you gain levels.

And i did say that your idea is worthy of trying out. Maybe it will play just fine and be enjoyable.

I appreciate the benefit of the doubt. Many others here have apparently already decided that they know how it'll play before trying it.

But i see no sense in forcing every player to play by those rules. Forced to be single class only.

I see the sense in fixing bugs so that the game is balanced the way it was meant to be. I do not see the sense in parsing out bug fixes piecemeal so that the net effect is still an imbalanced game. It defeats the purpose of a fixpack. And I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Anyone who wants to can still play the game as it shipped. What they're trying to do is force me to release a package that lets them continue to exploit bugs, thus completely perverting the purpose for which I've sunk countless hours into this. No.

Can you seriously argue that someone who has been a mage ever since he left Mebbeth's hut 15 minutes into the game should be able to acquire the skills of a powerful fighter inside of 5 minutes, and use them as a mage? Really?

Qwinn

 

[Qwinn]

I have a question. What happens when you gain levels but don't level your character up until you switch to another class?

Nothing, really. When you switch back to that class, the Level Up button will still be lit and you can hit it and get your new levels whenever you want. You don't lose any xp.

Qwinn

 

[Ravn7]

No, I meant something else. For exemple, you reach level 2, but do nothing about it until you switch class - then you hit the button and... what happens? You get all the levels in which class?

 

[Oeolycus]

Qwinn & scient, thanks for the work you to do.

Hiver: don't download the patch or backup 3.0. Problem solved; 'nuff said.

 

[Qwinn]

No, I meant something else. For exemple, you reach level 2, but do nothing about it until you switch class - then you hit the button and... what happens? You get all the levels in which class?

The button won't be lit up in the class you switched to. It'll only be lit up and pressable when you're in the class that gained enough xp to level.

I think I see where you might be confused. It sounds like you think that all 3 classes share one common xp total. Nope. They each have their own distinct amount of xp, and you only gain xp in the class you're in at any given moment.

Qwinn

 

[Ravn7]

You're right, now I got it. Now I think that maybe it was the same in BG. It seems I forgot. Thanks.