"Roleplaying" bla bla bla

[SkeleTony]

@ The OP:

If you break down terms/words into their separate components(prefix, suffix etc.) to try and understand what they mean, you come away with poor understanding of the terms. "Politics" comes from the Greek "Poly" meaning "many" and "ticks" which are small blood-sucking insects. So "politics" must therefore mean "many small, blood-sucking insects". Pretty funny but not accurate as far as real understanding of the word goes.

Similarly "roleplaying game" does NOT = "a game where you play a role(like an actor in a play". RPGs are, were and always have been, at their core tactical, stat-based simulation games. Players use 'characters' which are composites of numerically quantified attributes & skills to try and overcome challenges.

@ Jasede: Quit with the "LARPing simulator" straw man. I have yet to see anyone holdi8ng that position in any of these codex threads. It is not just a straw man but a STUPID straw man at that! You might as well be characterizing civil rights advocates as "guys who want to rape animals". Try not to be ridiculous.

 

[Jasede]

Quit being oblivious. Everyone on the Codex - at least during the "Age of Oblivion" called people who do the (silly) roleplaying thing during Oblivion LARPing faggots.

Besides, don't argue with me - what I mean with LARPing simulator - a game where you can play any role and take the, omg, choices and consequences of it, would be the perfect RPG for you new-school crowd; that's what you've been clamoring for ever since Fallout. Maybe I am misusing the word but it should be obvious what I mean.

 

[SkeleTony]

Quit being oblivious. Everyone on the Codex - at least during the "Age of Oblivion" called people who do the (silly) roleplaying thing during Oblivion LARPing faggots.

Including me. What's your point?

Besides, don't argue with me - what I mean with LARPing simulator - a game where you can play any role and take the, omg, choices and consequences of it, would be the perfect RPG for you new-school crowd;

As a "new school" RPGer who started with pen & paper games back in around 1980 or so, I must say that you have some confusion about what "LARPing" is. "LARP"(and yes, the LARPers are as faggish as the furries) is an acronym for "Live Action Role Playing" and it has not much to do with actual RP GAMING. You keep making ASSUMPTIONS about those who disagree with you and those assumptions are as far off the mark as you could possibly get!

that's what you've been clamoring for ever since Fallout. Maybe I am misusing the word but it should be obvious what I mean.

How can your meaning be "obvious" when you keep misusing the terms?! WHICH fan of Fallout is clamoring for a "LARP simulator"?! WTF are you talking about?!

 

[Jasede]

I know exactly what LARPing is, but it is used in a different meaning on the Codex.

The Codex has called it LARPing when you try to play in-character in Oblivion, hasn't it? So I am using this Codex-bound definition of LARPing - IE pretending to be in character and playing accordingly - to describe new-school RPGs like Fallout, since you do exactly the same there.

Would my character take this quest? Would he resolve it with combat, with stealth? Would he side with the gangsters or the Sheriff? That's all. I am well aware -as I stated before - that that's not what LARPing means, but it's used to mean this on the Codex, as far as I gathered from the Oblivion threads.

 

[SkeleTony]

I know exactly what LARPing is, but it is used in a different meaning on the Codex.

The Codex has called it LARPing when you try to play in-character in Oblivion, hasn't it?

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "playing in character" but that sounds rather stupid to be trying to "play in character" in a fucking computer game don't you think? I mean what is the point of sitting i8n front of your monitor and dramatically saying "NAY fair maiden! I cannot accept thine reward for it doth go against mine vow of honor as a paladin.". Hell even a dialog choice/option such as "Refuse reward?" would still come with mechanistic game consequences or would be pointless.

So I am using this Codex-bound definition of LARPing - IE pretending to be in character and playing accordingly - to describe new-school RPGs like Fallout, since you do exactly the same there.

That definition is about as faggish as the actual definition but I fail to understand how you arrive at the conclusion that I or anyone else holds to such a straw man as you have constructed here.

Would my character take this quest? Would he resolve it with combat, with stealth? Would he side with the gangsters or the Sheriff? That's all. I am well aware -as I stated before - that that's not what LARPing means, but it's used to mean this on the Codex, as far as I gathered from the Oblivion threads.[/quote]

 

[burrie]

The only time I ever roleplayed and had fun in a CRPG were during DMed games in Neverwinter Nights. All the other times, I'm simply playing a game and having fun.

 

[mondblut]

How can your meaning be "obvious" when you keep misusing the terms?! WHICH fan of Fallout is clamoring for a "LARP simulator"?! WTF are you talking about?!

Well, you have to admit that it was Fallout for the most part which introduced a new breed of CRPG players - those for whom "pretending to be someone else" is more important than number-crunching and exploring the world in search of harder challenges and better loot.

And those who put some "in character" emo drama over adventure simulation, deserve to be slagged as LARP rejects. Particularly in a computer game.

 

[SkeleTony]

How can your meaning be "obvious" when you keep misusing the terms?! WHICH fan of Fallout is clamoring for a "LARP simulator"?! WTF are you talking about?!

Well, you have to admit that it was Fallout for the most part which introduced a new breed of CRPG players - those for whom "pretending to be someone else" is more important than number-crunching and exploring the world in search of harder challenges and better loot.

I will admit no such thing. It may be true for all I know...I have seen no polls done on the matter. But I am a gamer who does not give a flying fuck about 'roleplaying' and I loved Fallout just for having better game mechanics and more interesting character development.

And those who put some "in character" emo drama over adventure simulation, deserve to be slagged as LARP rejects. Particularly in a computer game.

Agreed.

 

[Warden]

@ The OP:

If you break down terms/words into their separate components(prefix, suffix etc.) to try and understand what they mean, you come away with poor understanding of the terms. "Politics" comes from the Greek "Poly" meaning "many" and "ticks" which are small blood-sucking insects. So "politics" must therefore mean "many small, blood-sucking insects". Pretty funny but not accurate as far as real understanding of the word goes.

Similarly "roleplaying game" does NOT = "a game where you play a role(like an actor in a play". RPGs are, were and always have been, at their core tactical, stat-based simulation games. Players use 'characters' which are composites of numerically quantified attributes & skills to try and overcome challenges.

If you read carefully before accusing someone of something he didn't say you'd notice that I, in fact, think that rpgs are as you described them in your last sentence.
But I guess it's more easy to philosophate out "cool" stuff (like most codexers do) than trying to be simple, read with comprehension, and get to the point without all the fluff.

 

[burrie]

 

[Warden]

burrie, what's up? Please, just don't explode from laughing.. I wouldn't want my brand new threads to cause casualties.. so soon.

 

[Section8]

Besides, don't argue with me - what I mean with LARPing simulator - a game where you can play any role and take the, omg, choices and consequences of it, would be the perfect RPG for you new-school crowd; that's what you've been clamoring for ever since Fallout. Maybe I am misusing the word but it should be obvious what I mean.

You do realise that warrior who lets his sword do the talking is inevitably one of those roles, so this concept doesn't necessarily conflict with your own tastes?

As for this whole "LARP" thing, the context of its use against Oblivion players focuses very specifically on actions that have no effect on the game. Kind of flies in the face of the way you want to use it. Let me break it down for you:

• LARPing is essentially make-believe with absent or minimum rules.
• RPGing is make-believe with rules and restrictions so there is a component of challenge.
• Oblivion "LARPers" are ridiculed because they're equating their own make believe as a quality of the game.
• The Codex doesn't want an unlimited LARP sim, The Codex wants something they can project their make-believery onto and be challenged in return.
• Choices and Consequences is somewhat of a red herring - a reactive world is step one. Step two is for those reactive elements to challenge the player.
• LARPing is pure escapism - for the "baaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwww, life is hard!" crowd.
• RPGing is the opposite. "Life is too easy, give me something hard to play with." Pun intended.

Obviously that's filled with hyperbole, as always, but you get the idea.

 

[galsiah]

Would my character take this quest? Would he resolve it with combat, with stealth? Would he side with the gangsters or the Sheriff? That's all. I am well aware -as I stated before - that that's not what LARPing means, but it's used to mean this on the Codex, as far as I gathered from the Oblivion threads.

Not really. The codexified notion of LARPing only applies where the in-character actions have little or no connection to game mechanics. The point being that all the consequences of those actions need to be imagined, since the game itself doesn't support/respond to them.

Where the player expects choices to have significant game-mechanical consequences, making them in-character is not "LARPing". It's roleplaying - to the extent that the game supports roleplaying. The LARPing lies in going beyond the game's support.
In a design discussion, that's the significant point: any area where players appeal to LARPtastic arguments is an area the game's mechanics have failed to support. "LARPing" is possible with any game; in games/areas where it's necessary the game mechanics aren't doing a good job.

EDIT: oh well, too slow.

 

[TrustNo1]

i thought the LARPing thing was about choices WITHOUT consequences. Like for example patrolling the streets in Oblivion when it doesn`t have anything to do with any quests or anything actually operationalized in the rules (or the dialogs, quests etc) of the game. Like playing pretend.

Kudos to Jasede for turning the expression on games "the codex" actually likes though.

 

[DraQ]

This thread is full of fail and dumbfuckery, though I find this second quality rather unsurprising.

*yawn*

Anyway, if interaction with scripts is pointless the same can be said about any computer game that tries to create and maintain some sort of world or tell any sort of story. In other words anything more complex than Space Invaders.


Regarding virtua-LARPING - it's basically making shit up and playing pretend in a way unrelated to and unsupported by game's mechanics. It tends to make you look like a moron.

I think that some leeway should be given to character creation and staying in character - for example not stealing shit with a paladin, even when you can get away with it shouldn't be considered virtua-LARPing, though more extreme behaviour like stealing/looting/consoling yourself a suit of imperial armour and patroling roads in Oblivion, obviously should.

 

[elander_]

Err ... the LARPing thing was a joke. Even larpers can create rules and consequences for their games. The point is to have role-playing we need two things.

1) Character generation.

2) Have quests that allow your character to play according to his characteristics of choice.

Playing accordingly to ones traits and personal characteristics is role-playing. It's not the player that should use his brains to imagine unexistent consequences for having a low skill or playing a quest without killing someone.

The problem with Oblivion is that the bulk of the game is killing things. There are around 10 quests that can be finished using other skills besides combat.

I don't criticise (well i used to but not anymore) games like Zelda, Dungeon Master or Wizardry because the devs choose to focus all the available skills in combat. If you pick up one of these games and create a character you should realize that you are not going to play a diplomat or a stealth character from the chargen choices given to you.

When you create a char in Oblivion you may not realize at first but if don't pickup at least one combat skill like blades your character will become broken pretty quickly after you raise a few levels and it will be impossible for you to continue playing thanks to level scaling and because quests don't offer role-playing opourtunities for those all those skills you see in chargen. That's bullshit and you know it.

 

[DraQ]

When you create a char in Oblivion you may not realize at first but if don't pickup at least one combat skill like blades your character will become broken pretty quickly after you raise a few levels and it will be impossible for you to continue playing thanks to level scaling and because quests don't offer role-playing opourtunities for those all those skills you see in chargen. That's bullshit and you know it.

Better yet, don't pick any skill you're going to use with any regularity to fool the level scaling. 1st level barbarian Orc can have all his magic skills at 100, 1st level Altmer mage can't.

Actually, this is a fault inherited from Morrowind, but low skills were almost unusable, guild requirements were present and level scaling was almost non-existant in MW, so there was no real advantages to this kind of system abuse.

 

[elander_]

They could have fixed level scaling and removed that unnecessary and nerdish restriction that we can only level up if we use the tagged skills. They could instead have used a different method where we are allowed to allocate a few extra initial skill points for our favorite skills and the better a skill is initially the easier it is to raise it in the game. Oblivion system seams a bit arbitrary and unnecessarily restrictive.

But this would still not be enough if quests don't offer role-playing opourtunities. In this aspect Fallout is a great example of good chargen where we can actually play the characters we create.

 

[Xi]

No, I do know what roleplaying is, but I question its relevancy.
Contrary to you.. I think that roleplaying is more imortant (even if it's still unimportant to me) in multiplayer because you're actually interacting with real people.
What's the flavour of roleplaying when you're interacting with scripts?
And this shitty distinction between "in-character" and "out-of-character" - you're always out of character because the imput doesn't come from the pixels in game but from your brain. Well, this is mostly a philosphical concept.
So.. you roleplay how you think a certain character would act - based on what? It's totally arbitrary.

I think you're just more proof of <"insert random idiot here"> not understanding the meaning of their own words. The only point you've made is that you don't consider role-playing important for role-playing games. I've not seen such dumbfuckery in a long time. Thanks for the laugh.

Sense you play yourself, do you also roll low int and charisma stats and focus on button mashing vs tactics? Based on what you've said, I'm pretty sure that role-playing for you consists of fruitlessly attacking things while you master bait to the death of virtual creatures.

 

[TheLostOne]

RPG Codex: Fuck Roleplaying.

 

[DraQ]

In Before Retardo.

</thread>

 

[MF]

Was this "/feed" your attempt to insult me? As in "I ended feeding the troll". Ah, ok, too many idiots for free here.. I'm tired of inventing a new insult for each one of you. Too time consuming.
[...]
Thanks for your mental masturbation Plato, but no, it's not important to me to put myself in the feet of a character in a computer game.
[...]
Damn.. I hate people who make an elephant out of a fly, yet can't see a finger in front of their nose.
[...]
But I guess it's more easy to philosophate out "cool" stuff (like most codexers do) than trying to be simple, read with comprehension, and get to the point without all the fluff.

How old are you?

 

[Warden]

I think you're just more proof of <"insert random idiot here"> not understanding the meaning of their own words. The only point you've made is that you don't consider role-playing important for role-playing games. I've not seen such dumbfuckery in a long time. Thanks for the laugh.

Sense you play yourself, do you also roll low int and charisma stats and focus on button mashing vs tactics? Based on what you've said, I'm pretty sure that role-playing for you consists of fruitlessly attacking things while you master bait to the death of virtual creatures.

Yes, lesser being, to me "role-playing" (in the sense most people use that term) is not important in a role-playing game. I know your brain is not big enough to process this information correctly, but whateva.
I don't play role-playing games to "immerse" myself in a made-up role of a pixelled image - I do it for the challenge, combat, story, environment.
And I agree the original term for role-playing was meant to address the function of fighter, mage, cleric etc.
Anything else's blurry to you, moron?

 

[Warden]

How old are you?

God, try to be more original. This question is used by every single retarded fetus on Battle.net as a synonym for "you suck!!11". How low can you go..

 

[adron]

I don't play role-playing games to "immerse" myself in a made-up role of a pixelled image - I do it for the challenge, combat, story, environment.

isn't getting involved in an environment or story a form of roleplay?