What's with KOTOR and all the love for it?

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

As I understand, when you develop for a licensed IP, the IP owner aka Lucasarts(tm) must approve of all things you're doing. Just so that you don't accidentally screw something up that supposed to be 'canon' in the star wars universe. Or perhaps more so that you, (aka bioware) suddenly don't get the idea that you should be able to kill children in the game or have too much nudity and profanity in it.

They broke most of this right open with Baldur's Gate. You could kill Drizzt, then him and all his friends and a bunch of other stuff.

And he'd complain about it in the sequel. Isn't that hilarious?

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

As I understand, when you develop for a licensed IP, the IP owner aka Lucasarts(tm) must approve of all things you're doing. Just so that you don't accidentally screw something up that supposed to be 'canon' in the star wars universe. Or perhaps more so that you, (aka bioware) suddenly don't get the idea that you should be able to kill children in the game or have too much nudity and profanity in it.

They broke most of this right open with Baldur's Gate. You could kill Drizzt, then him and all his friends and a bunch of other stuff.

And he'd complain about it in the sequel. Isn't that hilarious?

Yeah....I always loved that.

 

[AlanC9]

So out of 10 characters, 1 of them is actually decent while the rest are clones of Baldur's Gate people. Not getting it yet.

Even your own presentation doesn't support that. Of the 10 (nine, since Trask shouldn't count), you've only identified three real BG parallels: Carth, Mission, and Bastila. And two of those are highly debatable. (I'll give you Mission = BG1 Imoen)

I'm not saying the characters are good -- that's subjective. But they aren't BG clones.

-Basically everything in this game is Neo-Bioware morality at full scale. Your choices are be a saint, be a saint and give people money afterwards, or do the exact same thing the saintly person would do.....but ask for money......how evil.

-You can't even initiate fights. Past Bioware games let me go on a murderous rampage if I wanted to. Heck, even Oblivion does this. But not KOTOR.

Of course, by proper choices in dialogs, you can still murder a heck of a lot of people. If they let you murder people at random, the game would stop responding correctly to your actions. Since you did this in previous Bio games, you know what I'm talking about.

-Korriban was quite possibly the dumbest place in the universe. If you really are a Sith Lord, wouldn't you just go whack the people in charge and seize control? Does it make sense for Mr. Evil Lord of Darkness to do a bunch of trivial tasks when he could easily just mop the floor with everyone?

Before finding the Star Forge map? I bought the setup because I don't think my character would rely on dead enemies always dropping the Diary of Plot-Critical Information.

Combat was praised as well for some strange reason.

It's not strange. We both know that lots of people like easy combat with flashy animations. That sucks, but it isn't strange.

but at least throw in some good optional fights a la Kangaxx, the dragons, and Demogorgon. Blew this one big time with the Krayt Dragon.

Not an optional fight, of course.

-The big fight with Malak was exactly like the one with Aec'Letec in Baldur's Gate....except not a challenge.

You didn't try an LS scoundrel/consular build. Malak isn't vulnerable to LS force powers, and defense builds don't work against his AB. You can still power your way through with unlimited consumable use, but it's not easy. As usual, Bio can't balance combat for all possible characters. (HotU had the same problem).

What was so great about KOTOR? It did nothing better than Shadows of Amn, had a heck of a lot less role-playing in it, and less general content. Was it just the "3d graphix" and the "immurshun"?

I can understand someone ranking KotOR over, say, PS:T or Fallout, since it's trying to do different things. But no, there really is no excuse for ranking it over SoA, unless you're just a graphics whore. And if that's the case, why are you playing RPGs?

 

[sportforredneck]

It was Star Wars with an actual attempt at story rather than just being tie fighters or some other nonsense. Whether it was cliche or not, so is Star Wars in general. Though it's not anywhere near top 10 game for me. It's like a popcorn movie, shallow but can provide at least a little something.

 

[Lurkar]

It's Star Wars. It isn't meant to be deep or moving. Or have anything CLOSE to moral greys. Star Wars is about evil people (with evil red lightsabers) fighting good people (with non-red lightsabers). Also, things explode. Let's face it - Star Wars is made of shiny special effects and horrendously cheesy acting.

 

[kingcomrade]

It was Star Wars with an actual attempt at story rather than just being tie fighters or some other nonsense.

What an ironic thing to say. Tie Fighter had one of the more interesting SW storylines.

 

[sportforredneck]

What an ironic thing to say. Tie Fighter had one of the more interesting SW storylines.

You can take solace in the fact that I never played it anyway, I just know it involves shooting either with or at Tie Fighters.

 

[DemonKing]

KOTOR is probably my second favourite Bio game after the original BG.

Sure it had some annoying console design decisions (the inventory system is pure ass), a stereotypical cackling badguy in a superhero outfit, and some annoying characters (Carth anyone), but it also had a lot of good stuff:

* HK47
* Ability to be really evil (eg making your Wookie compaion kill his best friend because he owes you a "life debt")
* The whole Sith Academy section was great with memorable voice acting.
* A lot of cool force powers (although the combat was pretty bad)

"The Twist", while predictable, was carried off reasonably well.

Overall it's much better than KOTOR2, IMO (although I am due to replay that one again sometime).

 

[callehe]

KOTOR is a good game. It's not a perfect RPG but it captures the Star Wars essence very well: action, adventure, lightsabre fighting, romance... all very nicely paced (admittedly forced on, still...). Also the obligatory Bioware dungeons could be cut short, thanks to the side effects of your overpowered force powers. Compare this to BG2 where you are literally crawling through every dungeon at a paralyzing pace.

As an rpg I say:
There are clear choices and consequences: sure short lasting and shallow but there are a lot of them.

 

[AlanC9]

What an ironic thing to say. Tie Fighter had one of the more interesting SW storylines.

You can take solace in the fact that I never played it anyway, I just know it involves shooting either with or at Tie Fighters.

Actually, you do both. The rebellious Imperial admirals are a much greater threat than the Rebellion. Apparently the designers thought that Palpatine was telling the truth when he called the Rebellion insignificant.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

TIE Fighter is the finest non-RPG I have ever played. A brilliant game. It's a real shame it doesn't work on modern systems (the TIE95 version is a rape of the original game). TIECD was the definitive version, it included all expansions and boosted resolution. I still have it on my shelf, and I gaze at it longingly, wishing I could play it once more.

 

[kris]

KOTOR is a good game. It's not a perfect RPG but it captures the Star Wars essence very well: action, adventure, lightsabre fighting, romance... all very nicely paced (admittedly forced on, still...). Also the obligatory Bioware dungeons could be cut short, thanks to the side effects of your overpowered force powers. Compare this to BG2 where you are literally crawling through every dungeon at a paralyzing pace.

As an rpg I say:
There are clear choices and consequences: sure short lasting and shallow but there are a lot of them.

I'd agree on these things, but if I had to mention one good thing about KOTOR it would be the atmosphere/ choice of settings. With the different locales you could venture too it felt diverse and I really liked most of them, apart from the fact that they where small.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

KOTOR delivered an absorbing Star Wars romp. For what it did I just really enjoyed it. I couldn't argue its a particularly deep RPG, nor is the combat very good. But the atmosphere and story had me completely hooked and transported me into the Star Wars universe I loved since I was a teenager. Sometimes it's good to switch off the analyzers gaze and just enjoy a game for what it's worth.

 

[Calis]

But no, there really is no excuse for ranking it over SoA

I'll take "suspension of disbelief" as my reason for ranking KOTOR over SoA. Though, admittedly, that is partially due to me having an easier time suspending my disbelief when the setting is Star Wars. Also, I never got past chapter 3 in SoA (even though I own the soopah-doopah collector's edition - which I got for free) so maybe I should give that another go.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Even your own presentation doesn't support that. Of the 10 (nine, since Trask shouldn't count), you've only identified three real BG parallels: Carth, Mission, and Bastila. And two of those are highly debatable. (I'll give you Mission = BG1 Imoen)

I'm not saying the characters are good -- that's subjective. But they aren't BG clones.

All right....here's the way I see things.

Lieutenant Trask Expendable---Gorion.

They both die in five minutes by some mysterious armored figure you face later and you're supposed to give a damn.

Carth "Whiny Bitch" Onasi---Anomen

Whiny, arrogant, and just a pain in the ass. Both of them think they are all that and seek to give you a hard time for not doing things the "right" way. And they both like a hell of a lot alike, and both look a lot like someone else....

Random R2D2 clone---A good deal of the BG1 NPCs

Basically, just like a lot of the BG1 NPCs (especially the later ones), this guy was just a soulless automaton that only served as a means to an end. Poor sod.

Mission Vao---Imoen

We've been over this one.

Chewie-Clone---Package deal, honor-debt, plus maybe a little Kivan/Valygar

Basically he was like the package deal characters in BG1, he came with Mission, Mission came with him. And he had a "life-debt". Seeing as plenty of characters in both Baldur's Gate games did something akin, that's not too unique. And he also had the Kivan/Valygar thing going on about being the strong, silent type who doesn't like to talk about his past. Not exactly a clone, more of a Frankenstein's monster.

Canderous Ordo---Korgan What's-his-Name

Basically they both loved to fight stuff and yap on about it. They didn't like people who didn't like to fight and just loved it when your character was an EXTREME badass. And did I mention how much they loved fighting?

Bastilla---Jaheira

Let's see....both are Tootsie Pops (try to keep a cold exterior while being soft and chewy on the inside which can be exposed by), both have serious family problems, both ask freaky questions and make you do a ton of weird stuff, and both are turned against you by the evil dude or dudette.

HK-47---Sarevok Anchev

They both were "born to kill", they both tell everybody to "embrace the joys of killing", they both are bound to you for some reason or another, both love to use the line "Let's go kill something", and they both make comedy out of mass killing. Thing is Sarevok actually has some more depth to him, whereas HK-47 just likes to kill the squishy meatbags. Not a total clone, but very similar. Seems like he is a clone of half of Sarevok's personality. HK was pretty funny at least. Too bad blasters sucked by the time you got him.

The furry---Haer'Dalis the Drama Queen

They're both freaks/outcasts, they both are really annoying, you can get a chance to kill both of them yourself, and damn.....is it great when you do.

Jolee the token black guy---Uhhhhh.....nobody

He's pretty damn unique. He's the only human companion character to ever be older than his 40s in a Bioware game, save Keldorn, and he actually conveyed that old guru feel. Plus he was funny as all hell.

Of course, by proper choices in dialogs, you can still murder a heck of a lot of people.

True. That always did feel more "evil" than just hacking someone to pieces with a hasted superbeast going akimbo with Celestial Fury and the Zerth Blade.

If they let you murder people at random, the game would stop responding correctly to your actions. Since you did this in previous Bio games, you know what I'm talking about.

Yep....a hell of a lot of people yelling "I AM THE LAW!" and a ton of battlemages.

Before finding the Star Forge map? I bought the setup because I don't think my character would rely on dead enemies always dropping the Diary of Plot-Critical Information.

I always figured you could just have people search for it after taking the place over and start lopping off heads for any delay. That sounds so much more Evil Lord of Darkness to me, but who knows....

You didn't try an LS scoundrel/consular build. Malak isn't vulnerable to LS force powers, and defense builds don't work against his AB. You can still power your way through with unlimited consumable use, but it's not easy. As usual, Bio can't balance combat for all possible characters. (HotU had the same problem).

Yeah, he kicked the bucket after he found out haste + lightsaber throwing can't be beaten by any resistance mumbo-jumbo and he didn't have an unblockable Death Gaze uberpower so ranged attacks totally devastated him. Of course I did go Soldier/Sentinel with a strong Light Side bent, but using mostly neutral powers, so I guess I wouldn't have had a hard time.

Also the obligatory Bioware dungeons could be cut short, thanks to the side effects of your overpowered force powers. Compare this to BG2 where you are literally crawling through every dungeon at a paralyzing pace.

Huh....I found the "dungeons" in KOTOR to take even more time because of all the keypad hacking and switch flipping you had to do. Not to mention there was no challenge whatsoever so it felt really pointless. At least the Shadows of Amn dungeons were usually pretty fun or at least had some challenging fights. But I can understand if you hate dungeons in your RPGs completely why you would prefer KOTOR's to Shadows of Amn dungeons.

I'll take "suspension of disbelief" as my reason for ranking KOTOR over SoA. Though, admittedly, that is partially due to me having an easier time suspending my disbelief when the setting is Star Wars. Also, I never got past chapter 3 in SoA (even though I own the soopah-doopah collector's edition - which I got for free) so maybe I should give that another go.

Really? Huh...opposite for me. It was mostly the super-swords that were somehow better than laser guns and able to compete with freaking lightsabers that sort of wrecked that for me. But I guess the whole godlike humans thing isn't exactly an easy pill to swallow either.

 

[made]

TIE Fighter is the finest non-RPG I have ever played. A brilliant game. It's a real shame it doesn't work on modern systems (the TIE95 version is a rape of the original game). TIECD was the definitive version, it included all expansions and boosted resolution. I still have it on my shelf, and I gaze at it longingly, wishing I could play it once more.

Tried with the latest DosBox release?

 

[Deleted member 7219]

TIE Fighter is the finest non-RPG I have ever played. A brilliant game. It's a real shame it doesn't work on modern systems (the TIE95 version is a rape of the original game). TIECD was the definitive version, it included all expansions and boosted resolution. I still have it on my shelf, and I gaze at it longingly, wishing I could play it once more.

Tried with the latest DosBox release?

#

I can't get it to work properly with either TIE Fighter or Daggerfall. Woe is me.

 

[Jasede]

Next time your system breaks down, or you have a few dollars to spend, build yourself a Dos computer, or make a Dos partition. It's worth it just for Tie Fighter, I am serial.

And I won't hear Haer'Dalis hate! I wish he had been romancable.

 

[Volourn]

"All right....here's the way I see things.

Lieutenant Trask Expendable---Gorion.

They both die in five minutes by some mysterious armored figure you face later and you're supposed to give a damn.

Carth "Whiny Bitch" Onasi---Anomen

Whiny, arrogant, and just a pain in the ass. Both of them think they are all that and seek to give you a hard time for not doing things the "right" way. And they both like a hell of a lot alike, and both look a lot like someone else....

Random R2D2 clone---A good deal of the BG1 NPCs

Basically, just like a lot of the BG1 NPCs (especially the later ones), this guy was just a soulless automaton that only served as a means to an end. Poor sod.

Mission Vao---Imoen

We've been over this one.

Chewie-Clone---Package deal, honor-debt, plus maybe a little Kivan/Valygar

Basically he was like the package deal characters in BG1, he came with Mission, Mission came with him. And he had a "life-debt". Seeing as plenty of characters in both Baldur's Gate games did something akin, that's not too unique. And he also had the Kivan/Valygar thing going on about being the strong, silent type who doesn't like to talk about his past. Not exactly a clone, more of a Frankenstein's monster.

Canderous Ordo---Korgan What's-his-Name

Basically they both loved to fight stuff and yap on about it. They didn't like people who didn't like to fight and just loved it when your character was an EXTREME badass. And did I mention how much they loved fighting?

Bastilla---Jaheira

Let's see....both are Tootsie Pops (try to keep a cold exterior while being soft and chewy on the inside which can be exposed by), both have serious family problems, both ask freaky questions and make you do a ton of weird stuff, and both are turned against you by the evil dude or dudette.

HK-47---Sarevok Anchev

They both were "born to kill", they both tell everybody to "embrace the joys of killing", they both are bound to you for some reason or another, both love to use the line "Let's go kill something", and they both make comedy out of mass killing. Thing is Sarevok actually has some more depth to him, whereas HK-47 just likes to kill the squishy meatbags. Not a total clone, but very similar. Seems like he is a clone of half of Sarevok's personality. HK was pretty funny at least. Too bad blasters sucked by the time you got him.

The furry---Haer'Dalis the Drama Queen

They're both freaks/outcasts, they both are really annoying, you can get a chance to kill both of them yourself, and damn.....is it great when you do.

Jolee the token black guy---Uhhhhh.....nobody

He's pretty damn unique. He's the only human companion character to ever be older than his 40s in a Bioware game, save Keldorn, and he actually conveyed that old guru feel. Plus he was funny as all hell."


Talk about desperation comparison. Your 'similarities' are so broad to be almost completely meaningless.

You might as well say you and I are the same 'stereotype' because we're both humans posting on the Codex. L0LLERZ! (You are human right?)

R00fles!

 

[Deleted member 7219]

One thing I completely disagree with is the similarities between Imoen and Mission. They are both young girls and sound the same. That's it. Mission Vao is not your sister, she's not some kind of demigod, she's just a normal twi'lek teenager. So shut up.

 

[Texas Red]

One thing I completely disagree with is the similarities between Imoen and Mission. They are both young girls and sound the same. That's it. Mission Vao is not your sister, she's not some kind of demigod, she's just a normal twi'lek teenager. So shut up.

A normal teenager who can take down dozens of Sith troopers.

 

[Spazmo]

*blah*

Did you seriously just quote his entire post to post two lines that basically say "NO LOL YOU ARE WRONG!"? I don't care either way about the argument, but come on, that's just retarded.

 

[Texas Red]

*blah*

Did you seriously just quote his entire post to post two lines that basically say "NO LOL YOU ARE WRONG!"? I don't care either way about the argument, but come on, that's just retarded.

And he didnt even bother to

quote

it properly. I didnt understand what the hell was happening.

 

[Higher Game]

The second KOTOR had its moments.

 

[Annonchinil]

I remember in KOTOR the characters talked a lot but it always came out as blah, blah, blah, blah. How is it possible to write so much dialogue but offer no depth? Like Canderous, you get the impression he likes killing stuff, but he never becomes more than that. There is also some lame social Darwinism about Mandalorians thrown in.