"Roleplaying" bla bla bla

Warden · Feb 6, 2008

I made a few ventures over the net enquiring about the PWs for NWN2 - I am not a multi-player in the rpg genre actually but nontheless I was curious to see what's this all about even though I am not planning to join any PW for now.. (Online strategy games ftw)

The point is I almost always came across the "rules" of the pw and regularly there was a part about how you must roleplay in character as much as possible.. You'll say - that's why it's called "rpg" , duh.

Well, you see, I (you) can't roleplay someone really.. I can "roleplay" what I feel to do at a certain time. That's mostly powergaming but that's besides the point. I mean to say that this notion to "roleplay" means nothing. Can you explain it? What they want to roleplay actually? To stay as close to your alignment/class/race as possible?
Ok, lets say I'm playing a character which is lawful good - does this mean he can't do bad thingz? Is this realistic?
To make it more simple - the whole notion of "roleplaying" is idiotic - you don't play a role, you play a situation after situation. I could be a maniacal killer in this area and a goody two shoes in another - is this roleplaying or a whim of my brain?

Oh, fuck "roleplaying", I'd like a challenging rpg.

Ok, thanks.

MF · Feb 7, 2008

If you play Super Mario Brothers, you go around hopping over gumbahs collecting mushrooms (no wonder the SMB world is so funky). Not exactly run-of-the-mill fare for a guido plumber.

Now picture the Doom space marine in the Super Mario world. He wouldn't hop on those gumbas or use a racoon's tail to flip them over. He'd blast their ass with a big gun.

If you can see that difference, you should know that there are also much more subtle differences between the acts of various fictional characters. It is up to you to recognize those and place yourself in their feet. Shift your paradigm to match theirs and do what you imagine they would do.

Of course, I only used this ridiculous example because you're a troll.

Warden · Feb 7, 2008

Or maybe because you're ridiculous.
Why would I want to place myself "in their feet"? Is this cool to do or something? The point is you don't ropleplay anything - you roleplay your brain.

I know that idiots like you can't think deep enough to figure out why is this term so flawed.. but hey, I give everyone a chance.

Jasede · Feb 7, 2008

But isn't that exactly what the Codex wants to do in most games? Honestly? Most of you guys -want- a LARPing simulator. A game where you can play any character you want and have the world react to it; of course with the outcome and your character being firmly defined in numbers and statistics, and your actions depending on them.

That's exactly what people do on an NWN PW roleplay server, or a roleplay MUCK. It should be heaven for most Codex drones, but playing with other people is icky, I guess. But then, you could always pretend they're just very clever NPCs. :shrug:

Roleplaying on those servers is -exactly- like playing the Codex' perfect CRPG: you pick a character, give him skills in the limit of the system, and then, well, roleplay: you, like an actor, think about what your character would say and how he would react and then use the skills you have to resolve conflicts, have adventurers or just hang out with PCs - depending on the character. You could be, for example, a snooty mugger who grew up in the slums, living by his wits, grubbing money wherever he can, though repulsive and uncharismatic, with some street combat skills.

It's the perfect CRPG.

Warden · Feb 7, 2008

Yeah, I guess... people have different reasons to roleplay something. For me, there's not much charm in it because I act as I think it's the best in a given situation independent from the class/alignement/race of my character - the best as in how would I benefit my character mostly (good weapons/exp). I don't have any mental backround for my character as well, because it's irrelevant to me and I see little reason to roleplay (something) in a computer game. Probably I'm just "roleplaying" myself with any given character, mostly to be the best character possible. But there's one thing which I don't like to do (which could be described as roleplaying); I don't like to kill innocent creatures.

The point is people expect you to comply your behaviour with your race/gender/alignement - but why would any of these affect how you act, even slightly? For example, is there something as good/neutral/evil? Can't people be all 3.. depending on the siruation?

Norfleet · Feb 7, 2008

Mostly, people arguing about "mandatory roleplay" are frequently just using it to impose their views on how YOU should behave. Granted, there are certain obvious things, like "Don't talk about your pathetic excuse for a real life here.", but ultimately, the rest of it is just an attempt by others to force their image of how you should act on you.

Spectacle · Feb 7, 2008

If you don't like roleplaying, why do you want to play on a roleplaying server? Stick to hack&slash servers and let those of us who enjoy roleplaying play on our RP servers.

Warden · Feb 7, 2008

Spectacle said:
If you don't like roleplaying, why do you want to play on a roleplaying server? Stick to hack&slash servers and let those of us who enjoy roleplaying play on our RP servers.

Why do you think I like hack&slash? I like a good story also.
And the premise is I don't intend to join any PW anytime soon, i prefer single player when it comes to rpgs.
Nobody said you should not play wherever you want.

Xi · Feb 7, 2008

Warden said:
Well, you see, I (you) can't roleplay someone really.. I can "roleplay" what I feel to do at a certain time. That's mostly powergaming but that's besides the point.

So you consider min/maxing role-playing? Obviously a lot of us do this, but I hardly consider it to be a factor of role-playing as much as it is a factor of a specific game-play mechanic that isn't inherently role-play.

Warden said:
I mean to say that this notion to "roleplay" means nothing. Can you explain it?

Without meaning or definition, you're right, it would mean nothing. This is why those servers impose rules in the same way many people on the Codex attempt to provide the most accurate definition. You're taking the concept of "role-play" for granted and not appreciating it because, well, you simply do not know what it is. I can understand that in a Multi-player setting, the concept of role-play and "acting" become blurred, so your concern is probably legitimate. It's a difficult thing to do via multi-player, you'll be going out of character like cRPGs have gone out of style.

Warden said:
To make it more simple - the whole notion of "roleplaying" is idiotic - you don't play a role, you play a situation after situation.

Maybe you play a role within a situation? You have this thing called a "brain" too.

/feed

Warden · Feb 7, 2008

Xi said:
So you consider min/maxing role-playing? Obviously a lot of us do this, but I hardly consider it to be a factor of role-playing as much as it is a factor of a specific game-play mechanic that isn't inherently role-play.

You are asking me if I consider powergaming roleplaying? I don't.

Without meaning or definition, you're right, it would mean nothing. This is why those servers impose rules in the same way many people on the Codex attempt to provide the most accurate definition. You're taking the concept of "role-play" for granted and not appreciating it because, well, you simply do not know what it is. I can understand that in a Multi-player setting, the concept of role-play and "acting" become blurred, so your concern is probably legitimate. It's a difficult thing to do via multi-player, you'll be going out of character like cRPGs have gone out of style.

No, I do know what roleplaying is, but I question its relevancy.
Contrary to you.. I think that roleplaying is more imortant (even if it's still unimportant to me) in multiplayer because you're actually interacting with real people.
What's the flavour of roleplaying when you're interacting with scripts?
And this shitty distinction between "in-character" and "out-of-character" - you're always out of character because the imput doesn't come from the pixels in game but from your brain. Well, this is mostly a philosphical concept.
So.. you roleplay how you think a certain character would act - based on what? It's totally arbitrary.

Maybe you play a role within a situation? You have this thing called a "brain" too.

/feed

Of course I play "a role" in a situation.. or, I would rephrase it - I act according to the situation and pick the choice I deem the best. We all do.. that's a real life thing. Roleplaying, on the other hand is something that's very nebulous.

Was this "/feed" your attempt to insult me? As in "I ended feeding the troll". Ah, ok, too many idiots for free here.. I'm tired of inventing a new insult for each one of you. Too time consuming.

Hory · Feb 7, 2008

Jasede said:
But isn't that exactly what the Codex wants to do in most games? Honestly? Most of you guys -want- a LARPing simulator. A game where you can play any character you want and have the world react to it; of course with the outcome and your character being firmly defined in numbers and statistics, and your actions depending on them.

LARPing is focused on dressing up and acting, not on realistic consequences. LARP groups usually don't have the budget to enable such consequences.

I play RPGs as rule-based virtual reality simulators. That's what games are about. Take me somewhere where I haven't been, doing something I haven't done, etc. I usually roleplay "myself" and choose what seems natural for me. I have tried other roles but didn't feel attached to them. Also, I want to be in an interesting virtual situation, with a captivating story. "Just hanging out with PCs" isn't it.

sheek · Feb 7, 2008

Hory said:
LARPing is focused on dressing up and acting, not on realistic consequences. LARP groups usually don't have the budget to enable such consequences.

I play RPGs as rule-based virtual reality simulators. That's what <s>games</s> [RPGs] are about.

Exactly. If you don't understand that you've missed the point...

I realize there are some people out there who do play RPGs, mostly D&D fanatics and CRPG-only (as opposed to PnP as well) fans. But really all you're doing is playing a table top war game with expanded rules. Warhammer Skirmish with more stats, levelling up and a few additional skills, and your objective is to 'win', ie to get the most loot, the best weapons, and the most 'power' (the most maximized/optimal combination of stats/abilties/features). The story, characters, background setting or events are mainly irrelevant, or are just there to give 'flavor' to that masturbatory desire to roll dice, add up numbers and review statistics.

You can call yourself RPG fans and that's OK, I don't mind that, but the fact is that you're not really.

Warden · Feb 7, 2008

Hory said:
I play RPGs as rule-based virtual reality simulators. That's what games are about. Take me somewhere where I haven't been, doing something I haven't done, etc. I usually roleplay "myself" and choose what seems natural for me. I have tried other roles but didn't feel attached to them. Also, I want to be in an interesting virtual situation, with a captivating story. "Just hanging out with PCs" isn't it.

Yes, that's pretty much the same as I feel about it.

I think we can just roleplay ourselves because we don't know what others would do/feel.

Jasede · Feb 7, 2008

I am using the Codex definition of LARP, not the real one. As in, they call it LARPing here when you roleplay your character in Oblivionmans so I might as well call it that in an RP server since that's what you'd do all the time there.

Warden, even when you don't have much empathy - heh, according to some stupid writ I should have zero, but I am trusting that less and less - you can still rationally find out what someone else would do; it just takes more work when you don't have much intuition to guide you.

Besides, don't say it's "impossible" not to play yourself - every actor can! Sure, his role will still carry a little part of him, but it's not at all impossible.

Warden · Feb 7, 2008

Jasede said:
I am using the Codex definition of LARP, not the real one. As in, they call it LARPing here when you roleplay your character in Oblivionmans so I might as well call it that in an RP server since that's what you'd do all the time there.

Warden, even when you don't have much empathy - heh, according to some stupid writ I should have zero, but I am trusting that less and less - you can still rationally find out what someone else would do; it just takes more work when you don't have much intuition to guide you.

Besides, don't say it's "impossible" not to play yourself - every actor can! Sure, his role will still carry a little part of him, but it's not at all impossible.

Empathy is something else, it's compassion.. I can feel empathy for someone but still don't know what would that person do in a given situation. Moreso when we're talking about a character that's completely made up - like all the ones in video games.

I didn't say it's not possible to play someone other than yourself.. but what's the point.. you can try but in the end it's just you.
As for actors.. I don't know.. to me they always seem the same person no matter how hard they try to be "in-character".

The voice, the moves, the mimic, the gesticulation, the way they speak.. it's just too hard to pretend to be someone else. You're yourself no matter what.

Jasede · Feb 7, 2008

Well, you should see more stage actors then, not movie actors! But yeah, it's possible. And the point? Well... assume you do play on some RP server and "yourself" dies. Most of these servers forbid playing the same type of character twice in succession, so you'd "act" someone else to obey the rules, I guess. But the point is, to be someone else. Maybe it's a form of escapism? I liked playing a polite Spectator-beholderkin, a brooding, gentle, but hiddenly insidious Necromancer, or my kobold who learned magic all in character, starting at level five, and who helped recover treasures from Netheril, all thanks to working with Team Evil. Man, that was -awesome-, I tell you! I had a lot of fun doing that. It's so challenging to not get a monster-PC killed on sight by other characters (though I did get creamed eventually, low HP Fighter/Mage caught without buffs? Ugh.).

However, that was a very good server, so all the players were really interesting; they were better "written" than most NPCs in CRPGs.

Warden · Feb 7, 2008

Jasede said:
Well, you should see more stage actors then, not movie actors! But yeah, it's possible. And the point? Well... assume you do play on some RP server and "yourself" dies. Most of these servers forbid playing the same type of character twice in succession, so you'd "act" someone else to obey the rules, I guess. But the point is, to be someone else. Maybe it's a form of escapism? I liked playing a polite Spectator-beholderkin, a brooding, gentle, but hiddenly insidious Necromancer, or my kobold who learned magic all in character, starting at level five, and who helped recover treasures from Netheril, all thanks to working with Team Evil. Man, that was -awesome-, I tell you! I had a lot of fun doing that. It's so challenging to not get a monster-PC killed on sight by other characters (though I did get creamed eventually, low HP Fighter/Mage caught without buffs? Ugh.).

However, that was a very good server, so all the players were really interesting; they were better "written" than most NPCs in CRPGs.

That's nice.. we all have different motivations for playing a game. I love to have a strong melee fighter for example and love solving difficult quests to get a good item, much better if that's all packed in an intriguing story with a good ruleset (d&d is very good). And yes, I love looking at my character sheet. But.. even so I dislike being "cheesy". For example, I'm thorn between resting as much as possible (there are only benefits in it) and limiting resting myself (but I find that stupid since they didn't limit it with game mechanics..). All in all, I would never use cheesy tactics like distracting a montser running in circles with one character and hitting it with ranged weapons with another - in that sense I don't powergame.
For example, I play DotA, it's a very popular Warcraft 3 map meant for strategic 5v5 online clashes. And I love having lifesteal early on (by buying items which give it), even though it's far from a good investment when your damage is low. Preferences.. :D But I digress..

mondblut · Feb 7, 2008

sheek said:
But really all you're doing is playing a table top war game with expanded rules. Warhammer Skirmish with more stats, levelling up and a few additional skills, and your objective is to 'win', ie to get the most loot, the best weapons, and the most 'power' (the most maximized/optimal combination of stats/abilties/features).

That's what PNP RPGs were from the day 1, weren't they?

The story, characters, background setting or events are mainly irrelevant, or are just there to give 'flavor' to that masturbatory desire to roll dice, add up numbers and review statistics.

Gygax and Arneson invented it that way long before LARPers jumped the bandwagon.

Originally, "playing a role" meant just one thing: if you play a role of a fighter, you smack an enemy with a sword, not set up elaborate traps on his path, and if you play a role of a wizard, you roast him with a fireball instead of bashing him over his head with a staff. That's the sum of genuine RPG "roleplaying", not dressing up and speaking in "thees" and "thous".

TrustNo1 · Feb 7, 2008

I once had a quick experience on a roleplaying wow server. My guild was having a meeting with initiations of new members in that undead town outside Undercity. The public chat was full of "you suck, lol, idiots" from spectators in the city, that probably didn`t even now they were playing on a roleplaying server. Eventually one guy came running inside our meeting circle, spamming "can I join ur guild plz" and jumping around. The guild leader ordered his lieutenants to take care of him, and they drawed their blades and walked towards him, telling him to fuck off. Of course, they could do nothing to him, since combat must be agreed upon by the other part.

It ended with the guild roleplaying he was crazy, and ignoring him. I remember me beeing pretty psyched about the whole roleplaying thing, looking forward to reliving glorious kindergarten memories.

Jasede · Feb 7, 2008

There's... a difference between RP servers in WoW and a "real" RP server in NWN with dedicated DMs, or a hardcore RP MUCK.

It has nothing to do with dressing up and speaking in "thees" and "thous"; an ignorant perception.

mondblut · Feb 7, 2008

That doesn't matter. Fact is, roleplaying games ARE tabletop wargames with expanded rules, that's the way they were brought into existence by their inventors. All the "roleplaying" beyond the "role of cleric" and "role of dwarf" was brought in much later and by different kind of people.

...the same kind of people we now have to thank for "removing immersion-breaking mechanics like statistics and turn-based gameplay". Fuck it, give me a wargame with +3 swords over an "immersive" arcade action any day, 10 megabytes of dialogue trees or not.

MF · Feb 7, 2008

The whole idea is to increase the suspense of disbelief by making your character act in a fashion you deem appropriate. If you think actually projecting yourself in the game world is appropriate for the world in question, by all means go for it. Somehow, though, I doubt you have fantastic attributes like 18 STR or 20 INT when mapped to measurable real life skills and traits. Which makes -if you are powergaming- you unfit for portrayal in the gameworld, at least in my book. If you try to match a character's attributes with yours, then how are you playing the game? Do you imagine Ultima style avatar-from-the-real-world bullshit to go along with the story?

I know dick about medical science. Well, I know the basics, but I couldn't perform a surgery. If I wanted to roleplay a doctor, I would make the character what I perceive to be a believable doctor. The stats help with that, but if I just had the character do everything I would do, it would ruin my suspense of disbelief and with that, the experience. Why would I want to roleplay a doctor when I'm not? Well, why do people who are not doctors read Robin Cook?

Also, if you ever played chess, 80% of the game is knowing your opponent. Predicting what your opponent is going to do. It is a basic skill every human possesses in some degree, trained or untrained. If you can predict what your opponent is going to do, you're putting yourself in his place. Yes, in the end, it's still just you drawing conclusions from what you think your opponent's mind is, but those conclusions can be spawned from some pretty educated reasoning, or better, instinct. Saying you can't place yourself in someone else's feet is stupid. Unless you're really, really autistic, then you're right.

Warden · Feb 7, 2008

MF said:
The whole idea is to increase the suspense of disbelief by making your character act in a fashion you deem appropriate. If you think actually projecting yourself in the game world is appropriate for the world in question, by all means go for it. Somehow, though, I doubt you have fantastic attributes like 18 STR or 20 INT when mapped to measurable real life skills and traits. Which makes -if you are powergaming- you unfit for portrayal in the gameworld, at least in my book. If you try to match a character's attributes with yours, then how are you playing the game? Do you imagine Ultima style avatar-from-the-real-world bullshit to go along with the story?

I know dick about medical science. Well, I know the basics, but I couldn't perform a surgery. If I wanted to roleplay a doctor, I would make the character what I perceive to be a believable doctor. The stats help with that, but if I just had the character do everything I would do, it would ruin my suspense of disbelief and with that, the experience. Why would I want to roleplay a doctor when I'm not? Well, why do people who are not doctors read Robin Cook?

Also, if you ever played chess, 80% of the game is knowing your opponent. Predicting what your opponent is going to do. It is a basic skill every human possesses in some degree, trained or untrained. If you can predict what your opponent is going to do, you're putting yourself in his place. Yes, in the end, it's still just you drawing conclusions from what you think your opponent's mind is, but those conclusions can be spawned from some pretty educated reasoning, or better, instinct. Saying you can't place yourself in someone else's feet is stupid. Unless you're really, really autistic, then you're right.

Thanks for your mental masturbation Plato, but no, it's not important to me to put myself in the feet of a character in a computer game. It's just an avatar to achieve something - victory/enjoyment/progression.
You're talking about predicting the moves of your opponent in a strategy game like chess ( :roll:

) - which can be achieved with practice/knowledge, I'm (we're) talking about something completely different - the domain of feelings.
Damn.. I hate people who make an elephant out of a fly, yet can't see a finger in front of their nose.

MF · Feb 7, 2008

Warden said:
chess ( ) - which can be achieved with practice/knowledge, I'm (we're) talking about something completely different - the domain of feelings.
Damn.. I hate people who make an elephant out of a fly, yet can't see a finger in front of their nose.

No, we're not talking about feelings, we're talking about actions. You make judgment calls and hautain comments without bringing anything substantial to the discussion. You ignored my comparison to book readers, you ignored my point on suspension of disbelief and you put my chess analogy out of context.

I'll go on a limb here and quote you out of context as well.

Warden said:
Damn.. I hate people

Well fuck you too.

PS Learn the difference between empathy and compassion. It's kinda, you know, significant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy.

Warden · Feb 7, 2008

MF said:
No, we're not talking about feelings, we're talking about actions. You make judgment calls and hautain comments without bringing anything substantial to an argument. You ignored my comparison book readers, you ignored my point on suspension of disbelief and you put my chess analogy out of context.

And you made all up.

"Roleplaying" bla bla bla

Arbiter

The Boar Studio

Arbiter

Arcane

Arbiter

Moderator

Arcane

Arbiter

Arcane

Arbiter

Erudite

Arbiter

Arbiter

Arcane

Arbiter

Arcane

Arbiter

Arcane

Scholar

Arcane

Arcane

The Boar Studio

Arbiter

The Boar Studio

Arbiter