Thoughts on Bethesda

I was reading Five Changes from Oblivion to Skyrim, and I wanted to see if anyone else shared some of my views. I know there's a lot of hate for Bethesda on the Codex, but does anyone actually think they're stupid in a durrr kind of way?

The first thing that got me from that article was:

Now when you level up you can just raise your Magicka. In Oblivion you have to raise your Intelligence knowing that you're Intelligence raises your Magicka.

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My first thought was, "If figuring out that certain attributes raise certain stats, e.g. intelligence raises magicka, is too hard for you... why the fuck are you trying to play an RPG (or at least something that poses as an RPG)? Fuck off back to Farmville."

If you think about it a bit more though, I don't think we can blame mainstream gamers. After all, they didn't ask for RPGs, and they never played them before. It's the fault of those trying to target/adapt the genre to them. You can see right through Bethesda and realise that they aren't even trying to make RPGs anymore, not since Morrowind anyway. It's not that they can't, or wouldn't know how to, or that they're dumb, or that they forgot. No, they're actually very smart, and they could probably develop a great RPG even by Codex standards. They just don't want to. What they want is to maximise sales of their games (a more accessible game = a larger suitable audience = more copies sold). Classical RPGs are never going to sell as much as Popadragon 2, because they're just not as accessible to as wide an audience.

I may sound like I'm praising Bethesda, but fear not... I'm not excusing their actions. They do all this at the expense of raping great franchises, and, for that, they can suck my dick.

I also suspect that Todd and co are epic trolls who know that they're just bullshitting people (have you seen Pete's smile? Epic troll face if I've ever seen one), and they realise people such as Codexers know that they're full of shit, but they just don't care (after they go home to sleep on a mattress stuffed with hundred dollar bills). I'm sure they even get a kick out of it every time they think of some new PR materiel to spin. Hell, if you want to go really far, you could even suggest they're reading the Codex right now.

In the end, their games are massively successful, but come out as titles which have little to do with what was known as an "RPG" ten years ago. They masquerade as RPGs thanks largely to names they share with older games, names which were once synonymous with real RPGs (Elder Scrolls, Fallout, etc). The mainstream gaming media are bribed with incentives and never point this out though, instead just giving out awards like "10/10", "GOTY", etc, and so the general public never knows better in the end.

Yet, their games still come out... playable, in a sense of "good for what it is." We've all got a bit of lowest common denominator in us, no matter how prestigious we usually like to present our taste in games. Most Codexers will never admit playing these games, or go about doing so carefully, as it is still a subject of taboo.


I wonder, though, if Bethesda has got the balls to drop the SPECIAL system for Fallout 4 though? Or maybe that'll be for Fallout 5? They can test the waters in F4 by dropping it down to a "SPC" system first. Speed (agility + luck), Power (strength + endurance), Comprehension (intelligence + charisma + perception). So easy even I can do it.

Now when you level up you can just raise your Magicka. In Oblivion you have to raise your Intelligence knowing that you're Intelligence raises your Magicka.

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Here, Crispy, some irony.

IMO real-time first person games are simply a very bad system for a pure "old-school" rpg as you inevitably create a conflict between player skill and character skill that's hard to resolve.

I can even somewhat understand Bethesdas reasoning behind ditching attributes, as they anyway didn't have any meaningful influence (beyond "intelligence raises mana") in their recent games. From their point of view it's quite a logical step to make.
Now who knows, in the end it might even work out for Skyrim and a combination of perks and skills will be enough to create a discernible distinction between different "classes" that makes them feel unique and different (but I'll believe that if I see it).

Anyway there are other things that are contributing and are equally important for that:
A good rpg, IMO, should give the player something like class-specific choices or quests. A mage should be able to react differently to a challenge than a fighter or a thief (and I don't mean the choice between hitting the goblin with a fireball, a sword or an arrow). But this again is something I do not remember from Bethesdas games, so I doubt we will get it in Skyrim.
Come to think of it, sadly very few games do this in a good way.

So let's see, I want the possibility and enough freedom to build my character in a way that different choices in skilling will create discernible different characters and I want those choices to be reflected in the game outside of combat. I think it may be possible to do the character creation/skilling part even without attributes, but I'm somewhat skeptical.
What I'm quite sure I won't see in Skyrim is those choices being reflected in the story.

the perfect RPG would be an rpg that would be so dynamic that all numbers would be gone

all hidden, never needed to be viewed

everything would be achieved through visual indicators and improved player skills

example-

at lv1. a spell would take 20 secs to charge

at lv.20 a spell would take 5 seconds and you flail your hands around like the typical larper wanna be mage

another example-

at lv1. you swing your sword around, if blocked you have a 30 frame of non movement

at lv.20 you swing your sword to a pressure point for greater damage. a block causes 10 frame of movement with a (tekken style- just frame) window of rolling and dodging

example

at lv1. a block causes a knock back and frame window of inaction

at lv.20 you get positive frames, you can even (FF5 style job system) customise parry into blocking and countering

this next level of combat should feel kinetic and natural. at the highest levels of development, numbers shouldn't be needed

it should be natural

ViolentOpposition said:

Now when you level up you can just raise your Magicka. In Oblivion you have to raise your Intelligence knowing that you're Intelligence raises your Magicka.

Click to expand...

My first thought was, "If figuring out that certain skills raise certain attributes, e.g. intelligence raises magicka, is too hard for you... why the fuck are you trying to play an RPG (or at least something that poses as an RPG)? Fuck off back to Farmville."

Click to expand...

In many games I played 'you're Intelligence' does nothing but raises magic points. Cutting out the middle-man is a good idea, unless you somehow think that hardcore is using three stats to do what one can.

tennishero said:

the perfect RPG would be an rpg that would be so dynamic that all numbers would be gone

all hidden, never needed to be viewed

everything would be achieved through visual indicators and improved player skills

example-

at lv1. a spell would take 20 secs to charge

at lv.20 a spell would take 5 seconds and you flail your hands around like the typical larper wanna be mage

another example-

at lv1. you swing your sword around, if blocked you have a 30 frame of non movement

at lv.20 you swing your sword to a pressure point for greater damage. a block causes 10 frame of movement with a (tekken style- just frame) window of rolling and dodging

example

at lv1. a block causes a knock back and frame window of inaction

at lv.20 you get positive frames, you can even (FF5 style job system) customise parry into blocking and countering

this next level of combat should feel kinetic and natural. at the highest levels of development, numbers shouldn't be needed

it should be natural

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So... the perfect RPG is Gothic, is it, tennishero?

Melissan said:

ViolentOpposition said:

Now when you level up you can just raise your Magicka. In Oblivion you have to raise your Intelligence knowing that you're Intelligence raises your Magicka.

Click to expand...

My first thought was, "If figuring out that certain skills raise certain attributes, e.g. intelligence raises magicka, is too hard for you... why the fuck are you trying to play an RPG (or at least something that poses as an RPG)? Fuck off back to Farmville."

Click to expand...

In many games I played 'you're Intelligence' does nothing but raises magic points. Cutting out the middle-man is a good idea, unless you somehow think that hardcore is using three stats to do what one can.

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Fallout?

EDIT: Oh, wait.

Thank god the Elder Scrolls games are moving away from being an RPG. The structure of the game and the manner in which skills level and such makes for a better action-rpg or action-adventure game. The FP view was never really suited for a classical style RPG as it depends too much on player skill at point. RPGs should stay turn-based or even pseudo turn-based as it removes the player element and makes it far easier to focus on the character element.

I hear some whine about the removal of wall climbing but guess what? Magic or high Acrobatics let me scale walls with ease, and jump-hopping up mountains lets me "climb" the mountains. Guess why? Player skill, not character skill, allows me to do this.

Dumbing down of skills? Skills were dumbed down by Morrowind: Having 100 skill in a weapon causes combat to play nearly exactly the same as in Oblivion. The only difference in the fact that in Oblivion you simply deal less damage, while in Morrowind you miss or hit. There was never a character skill element in any meaningful fashion.

I don't know if Bethesda's current staff even knows what an RPG is. From what I've experienced in their games and what I've heard of their development "style", it seems to me that their leadership doesn't know what the fuck they're doing. The people who have veto power are idiots, so good ideas get shut down and bad ideas get high priority.

The one good thing is that it seems like they're actually getting better; Fallout 3 was still shit but it was better than Oblivion. If they continue to improve they maybe Skyrim will be a decent action game. I won't touch it, though.

Not even the Codex can decide on what an rpg is...

Xor said:

I don't know if Bethesda's current staff even knows what an RPG is.

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-Horseshit. They know but they want to make money. To make that money, they cater to lowest common denominator.

From what I've experienced in their games and what I've heard of their development "style", it seems to me that their leadership doesn't know what the fuck they're doing. The people who have veto power are idiots, so good ideas get shut down and bad ideas get high priority.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtPluXq_hko

The one good thing is that it seems like they're actually getting better; Fallout 3 was still shit but it was better than Oblivion. If they continue to improve they maybe Skyrim will be a decent action game. I won't touch it, though.

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They are getting better at making Action-rpgs / action-adventure / w/e you want to call it. But RPGs like PS:T, or Fallout 1 or Temple of Elemental Evil they are not.

Melissan said:

trolling

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Roll dice to ignore: natural 20.

Admiral jimbob said:

So... the perfect RPG is Gothic, is it, tennishero?

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Haven't you heard ? I was under the impression that everyone had heard !

gothic is shit

good ideas dont make a good game

bugs should be killed in game

not break a game

tennishero said:

very low level trolling 1/10

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Andre is immune.

Lord Andre said:

Melissan said:

trolling

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Roll dice to ignore: natural 20.

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I'm not trolling! Stop it.

Maybe I didn't play the games you did, but I did play many Bethesda games and many stats and skills are redundant. You put in points to strength to increase your damage. You put in points to Intelligence to increase magicka. Can't you see that one step is absolutely unnecessary? Intelligence and Magicka are the same ability, split into a stat and a skill. Why is it better to have both of them rather than one?

DragoFireheart said:

The one good thing is that it seems like they're actually getting better; Fallout 3 was still shit but it was better than Oblivion. If they continue to improve they maybe Skyrim will be a decent action game. I won't touch it, though.

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They are getting better at making Action-rpgs / action-adventure / w/e you want to call it. But RPGs like PS:T, or Fallout 1 or Temple of Elemental Evil they are not.

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"Getting better" but still firmly in the shit category. How many iterations will it take them to produce decent combat?

They're nowhere near DMoM&M (or S:BoD) at this point.

DragoFireheart said:

Thank god the Elder Scrolls games are moving away from being an RPG.

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Well, I agree that they might as well continue down this path since it sure as shit isn't anywhere near a classical RPG now. Still, just because a game relies on player skill, doesn't mean there can't be critical RPG elements such as choices & consequences, an altering gameworld which reflects the latter, character progession, etc.

Melissan said:

In many games I played 'you're Intelligence' does nothing but raises magic points. Cutting out the middle-man is a good idea, unless you somehow think that hardcore is using three stats to do what one can.

Click to expand...

Except it makes more sense if your mana rises through an increase in intelligence. You shouldn't be able to just choose to raise mana. Mana is a byproduct of experience. Something like intelligence, or meditation, is something which can (and I think should) be used as a platform to raise mana. Sure, a system where you raise mana directly works just as well, but it feels a lot less natural. Finally, no one said you need three attributes to do the same thing, either.

Edit:

Melissan said:

You put in points to strength to increase your damage. You put in points to Intelligence to increase magicka. Can't you see that one step is absolutely unnecessary? Intelligence and Magicka are the same ability, split into a stat and a skill. Why is it better to have both of them rather than one?

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Also, to add to the above, if you actually use attributes to increase stats, then they can control more than one thing. Intelligence can raise mana and a bunch of other stuff (e.g. conversation options, if they actually implemented a Fallout-like system, which they should), whereas if you can only choose to raise mana... then you can only choose to raise mana.

Reptilian Shapeshifter said:

"Getting better" but still firmly in the shit category. How many iterations will it take them to produce decent combat?

They're nowhere near DMoM&M (or S:BoD) at this point.

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Well, that's a different discussion. I can see them doing it at some point. Oblivion was shit. Fallout 3 had shit story and dialog but vastly improved in many other areas. Fallout: New Vegas was not their own work but may have given them some ideas to work with to improve Elder Scrolls (which they have, see perks in Skyrim).

Melissan said:

Lord Andre said:

Melissan said:

trolling

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Roll dice to ignore: natural 20.

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I'm not trolling! Stop it.

Maybe I didn't play the games you did, but I did play many Bethesda games and many stats and skills are redundant. You put in points to strength to increase your damage. You put in points to Intelligence to increase magicka. Can't you see that one step is absolutely unnecessary? Intelligence and Magicka are the same ability, split into a stat and a skill. Why is it better to have both of them rather than one?

Click to expand...

Sugar, if you ain't trolling then your attempt at grasping logic is as sweet as russian bubble gum.

How's this: Instead of dropping intelligence, make it influence more things in game than just mana. Same with the others. That way you actually have to think before spending those points. I know it sounds crazy but I've seen it work a long long time ago - like in the 90's when no one had figured out there's a lot of money in selling fps-pacman to retards.

ViolentOpposition said:

DragoFireheart said:

Thank god the Elder Scrolls games are moving away from being an RPG.

Click to expand...

Well, I agree that they might as well continue down this path since it sure as shit isn't anywhere near a classical RPG now. Still, just because a game relies on player skill, doesn't mean there can't be critical RPG elements such as choices & consequences, an altering gameworld which reflects the latter, character progession, etc.

Melissan said:

In many games I played 'you're Intelligence' does nothing but raises magic points. Cutting out the middle-man is a good idea, unless you somehow think that hardcore is using three stats to do what one can.

Click to expand...

Except it makes more sense if your mana rises through an increase in intelligence. You shouldn't be able to just choose to raise mana. Mana is a byproduct of experience. Something like intelligence, or meditation, is something which can (and I think should) be used as a platform to raise mana. Sure, a system where you raise mana directly works just as well, but it feels a lot less natural. Finally, no one said you need three attributes to do the same thing, either.

Click to expand...

If it works as well, why is it a bad thing? Do we need more stats to transfer your points to where you want them to be just so you can pretend that you're playing a real mage? How old are you?!

Lord Andre said:

How's this: Instead of dropping intelligence, make it influence more things in game than just mana. Same with the others. That way you actually have to think before spending those points. I know it sounds crazy but I've seen it work a long long time ago - like in the 90's when no one had figured out there's a lot of money in selling fps-pacman to retards.

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Except that was NEVER the style of the Elder Scrolls games. They focused solely on dungeon crawling and such, much like the first iterations of D&D did (gather heroes, explore dungeon, disarm traps, fight monsters, etc).

Lord Andre said:

Melissan said:

Lord Andre said:

Melissan said:

trolling

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Roll dice to ignore: natural 20.

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I'm not trolling! Stop it.

Maybe I didn't play the games you did, but I did play many Bethesda games and many stats and skills are redundant. You put in points to strength to increase your damage. You put in points to Intelligence to increase magicka. Can't you see that one step is absolutely unnecessary? Intelligence and Magicka are the same ability, split into a stat and a skill. Why is it better to have both of them rather than one?

Click to expand...

Sugar, if you ain't trolling then your attempt at grasping logic is as sweet as russian bubble gum.

How's this: Instead of dropping intelligence, make it influence more things in game than just mana. Same with the others. That way you actually have to think before spending those points. I know it sounds crazy but I've seen it work a long long time ago - like in the 90's when no one had figured out there's a lot of money in selling fps-pacman to retards.

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There is no need to be rude. I admit that it would be better if intelligence influenced more things and elephants flew, but since it's clearly not the case, why keep it there? We aren't building an RPG of your dreams here. We're discussing a specific issue. Is Bethesda cutting Intelligence a good idea or a bad idea? I say it's good.

DragoFireheart said:

Lord Andre said:

How's this: Instead of dropping intelligence, make it influence more things in game than just mana. Same with the others. That way you actually have to think before spending those points. I know it sounds crazy but I've seen it work a long long time ago - like in the 90's when no one had figured out there's a lot of money in selling fps-pacman to retards.

Click to expand...

Except that was NEVER the style of the Elder Scrolls games. They focused solely on dungeon crawling and such, much like the first iterations of D&D did (gather heroes, explore dungeon, disarm traps, fight monsters, etc).

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Exactly! And yet Lord Andre thinks that everyone else has a problem with logic. Oh the irony.

Melissan said:

ViolentOpposition said:

DragoFireheart said:

Thank god the Elder Scrolls games are moving away from being an RPG.

Click to expand...

Well, I agree that they might as well continue down this path since it sure as shit isn't anywhere near a classical RPG now. Still, just because a game relies on player skill, doesn't mean there can't be critical RPG elements such as choices & consequences, an altering gameworld which reflects the latter, character progession, etc.

Melissan said:

In many games I played 'you're Intelligence' does nothing but raises magic points. Cutting out the middle-man is a good idea, unless you somehow think that hardcore is using three stats to do what one can.

Click to expand...

Except it makes more sense if your mana rises through an increase in intelligence. You shouldn't be able to just choose to raise mana. Mana is a byproduct of experience. Something like intelligence, or meditation, is something which can (and I think should) be used as a platform to raise mana. Sure, a system where you raise mana directly works just as well, but it feels a lot less natural. Finally, no one said you need three attributes to do the same thing, either.

Click to expand...

If it works as well, why is it a bad thing? Do we need more stats to transfer your points to where you want them to be just so you can pretend that you're playing a real mage? How old are you?!

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I just told you why. Just because something technically works, that doesn't mean it fits into the world. Also, I just addressed that in an edit to my previous post. As for me, I'm old enough to not act like a teeny bopper.

Melissan said:

If it works as well, why is it a bad thing? Do we need more stats to transfer your points to where you want them to be just so you can pretend that you're playing a real mage? How old are you?!

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I agree that it makes some sense for Bethesda to "cut out the middle man".
To justify attributes they have to serve a purpose. Which they didn't really in Oblivion (and possibly Morrowind).

Still I'd prefer that they infuse them with some real purpose instead of simply taking them out.

Otherwise at some point the logical consequence could be:
"Yes, it's true, we removed player control, but it's not really necessary. The player would anyway just attack the monster, so instead we let the game handle that on its own."