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Bard's Tale The Bard's Tale IV: Barrows Deep - Director's Cut

Themadcow

Augur
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
309
Just a quick Yes or No question: Is the step-movement there yet?

I don't think it'll ever work properly, if it's ever added at all. There are environmental hazards in the dungeons (timed spikes, swinging axes etc) which are clearly designed with free form movement in mind. There are plenty of puzzles that rely on free look, which you'd have to turn off and on.

They're better off leaving it completely. I'd rather they gave the money to Krome to build a Bards Tale 3.5 with the remaster assets.
 

newtmonkey

Arcane
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
1,726
Location
Goblin Lair
From what I understand, only the dungeons were designed based on tiles/squares, so even if they added step-movement, you'd be free moving through the outdoor areas and then moving step by step in the dungeons. I don't think step-movement would improve the game in any way; it's not like was designed like a traditional blobber. It would be like adding a step-movement mode to Might & Magic VI or Wiz 8. Though step-movement would work better in BTIV even in the outdoor areas, since they are basically corridors/paths.
 
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theSavant

Self-Ejected
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Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
I also see no point in grid movement anymore. Either you design the whole game with grid movement in mind (like Grimrock 2) or you leave it at free movement. It's clear that they didn't design the game for grid movement. Now all they can add is a weird mixture of half-grid-half-free-movement. But is that what people wanted? I doubt it.
facepalm.png

A total waste of effort. They better spend this effort in removing half the puzzles.
 
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BlackGoat

Arbiter
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
505
I remember there being some update awhile back when they were working on the step movement, and it just seemed so utterly absurd that they were even bothering

Edit.

Found it

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/the-bards-tale-iv/posts/1914099
Tuning up the Legacy: Grid Movement
What are the duties of a Senior Programmer on Bard's Tale IV? Well, it varies a lot from day to day. A lot of the code I’m working on is plumbing-level stuff – handling loading and in-memory storage of game data, building the components we’ll use to make the puzzles and traps in game (kind of like Lego-bricks for code), save and load of game data, etc. I also range up to do some UI implementation or bolt in the occasional player ability. Another aspect of my job is to act as a voice for the fans on the team – my experience as a player and fan of the original games is part of why they hired me. And so far, they’ve been great about listening to my suggestions and working to incorporate them. A few of those are in the works and today I'd like to introduce you to the first returning mechanic: grid movement.

RPGs back in the day were built on a grid, both because it was familiar (via table-top games like D&D) and because computers and software wouldn’t be able to handle proper 1st person free movement for another 10 years or so. Early RPGs like The Bard’s Tale not only used a grid, but the fact that it was a grid was often part of the puzzle of the game. You knew there were hidden areas on the map because it was a grid and your careful mapping (on graph paper, no less! No automappers yet) shows there’s a spot you can’t see how to get to. That’s an aspect we wanted to bring forward into this new Bard’s Tale game, so supporting a grid-based movement mode has always been a high priority.

864660e4e001d4425575b606c892874c_original.jpg

The (original) Bard's Tale


40a6519a5e9adb3872bdf415de55f3f4_original.jpg


Pictures courtesy of The Bard's Tale Online



However, time has moved on and we want to take advantage of the many benefits of free movement, too. For instance, it allows for more natural, organic, outdoor areas. It also helps areas you wouldn’t think of as being overly organic or natural, like castle or dungeon interiors. A nicely laid out building interior has a lot more soft corners and curves to it than you’d at first think based solely on the floorplan. More importantly, while parts of the building align on a grid seldom do level designers align the entire floorplan to a grid. Finding a system that works with both a free-flowing world and grid based movement presents some interesting challenges. Take for example this screenshot of the interior of one of the castles:


Note: This shot is set up with debug lighting to make it easier to see what's going on - final art will look much less plastic!


As you can see, the floor plan might be a straight hallway with 90 degree turns, but the art team has done their job in decorating the area and making it feel lived in. This landing with columns, candle stands, benches, and the stag statue create various obstacles to the movement grid system (visualized here as black squares with the yellow arrows connecting them). This layout is a first pass, partially automatically generated using a system I built to take some of the workload off our designers. This allows us to spend more time later on fine-tuning the level to our satisfaction.

You can see how the grid of nodes coming up the stairs wouldn't work well continued down the area between the columns. We will most likely adjust the grid to have a single path go down the center of the columns, and it may or may not line up cleanly to let you walk between the columns in grid movement mode (I've drawn the likely path in red below).




Another concern is how combat relates to movement nodes. A natural assumption is that combat can only happen on a movement node, but movement nodes and combat placement have somewhat conflicting requirements. Movement needs to feel regular and natural, following halls and turns. Combat needs to be placed such that all enemies can line up on their combat gird positions and not be placed inside of a wall. So we decided we needed to split out a separate combat placement grid from the movement grid. I then built tools to help identify if a given combat placement would have concerns with overlapping props or be too close to a wall. This lets the art and design teams go through a level and adjust the placement or collision settings on various objects and make sure there are viable combat start positions available.

Here is an example of the movement grid (changed to green lines here) and combat grid (red, with obstructions noted by the yellow lines). This particular area obviously still needs some attention from level design and art to clean up so combat can be sure to have enough space to start.







As you can see, even with a tool that generates nodes for you, there's still a fair bit of work to make it all fit and feel just right, something worthy of those players who remember the graph paper days. This is just some of what I've been working on for The Bard's Tale IV and I'm looking forward to talking about more in the weeks and months to come.
Like... bruh
 

newtmonkey

Arcane
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
1,726
Location
Goblin Lair
The funny thing is, for all that talk about node algorithms and whatnot, in the final game all the enemies are just standing there in fixed locations (or, rarely, walking to and fro between two points in a fixed area).

Which means, none of that even matters, since when you attack enemies you "warp" to their location in the final game anyway.
 
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theSavant

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
Which also reminds me, that they were having difficulties to put the combat field in the worldspace so it doesn't overlap with walls, corners, objects.
Now if they really implement grids or nodes, it makes one question their initial design decisions even more: why didn't they go for it in the first place? If they had made the game based on grid squares they would have gotten no problems placing a "combat field", because they could have put the whole combat field (which is not that huge actually) into 1 grid square. They would have had no problems with walls, overlapping objects, positioning. Easy to implement. Maybe a bit difficult to create organic looking levels, but the current "serpentine trenches" aren't much better anyways.

Either way, they should stick to the decision they made, and forget about the gridmode. There are much more pressing issues. Also I'm pretty sure implementing the gridmode with all these puzzles and required environmental interaction is a pain. If they really do implement it, it's a clear indicator they have lost their minds - wasting time with that instead of listening to what people really criticise, and doing something about that.

Arrgh... thinking about that drives me nuts :mad:
 
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Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
While I agree with everybody that grid movement should have been dumped (first thing, in fact as it absolutely screamed "split design"), I get why it wasn't. Look closely at claims made and final products and you'll see that inXile has a pattern of delivering on all their measurable ←important promises. They try hard to do what they said they'd do, even when what they said they'd do doesn't make the game better. It's the intangibles they get wrong.
 
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theSavant

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Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
They try hard to do what they said they'd do, even when what they said they'd do doesn't make the game better.

Totally. I also came to this conclusion meanwhile.

All they care about is delivering the promised points.
They don't care about how they're delivered, as long as they're delivered.
Even if the features don't make any sense, they will be delivered as planned.
Even if their design decisions messes up the game, they will be delivered as planned.
Even if they see it's shit, it will be delivered as planned.
It will be delivered!!! Goddammit! No matter what! No compromises!

Now, actually it's honorable if they keep their promises. Especially nowadays. But at the same time it's dumb, when they just ignore *everything else* and try hard to "deliver" with a block of concrete in their mind. And they did that. Meanwhile I even believe they never ever cared about suggestions, criticism or wishes from the community, experienced players, genre fans. Everything was ignored, including in their own forums. They just kept on "delivering" what they planned. Even though many many red flags were there from the beginning, nothing changed. Which is bad for backers, and crazy for a company. Especially when you consider that they added up to $10 million from their own funds. For a niche game. And yet kept ignoring.

In some way I get this mindset. That's how businesses work. In a very abstract way. You must finish what you started. You must deliver what you promised. That's how you get reputation. You won't get good reputation if you stop halfway in between or can't fulfill the promises. So delivering is the most important thing. If the project fails you re-evaluate what you did wrong, and then make the next project differently. And so on.
I didn't expect them to work like this, but that's exactly how they tick. Thing is, the game could actually be worthwhile, if they hadn't exaggerated and extended things so much. But with a mindset like they have, we can't expect any corresponding changes anymore. They're just following their business abstract aka implementing what's left, and then it's "Delivered as promised. Over and out.". And no one is happy about it.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
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Messages
11,575
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Yeah. Don't ask me to look them up, but I've seen a few other kickstarters that have said in updates, OK, we promised x and y in the pitch, but we've decided they are stupid and will be bad for the game for this briefly explained reason, so those are gone and we're done talking about it. And every time I see this I go, I'm disappointed but you know what, they're right and I'm glad they changed it.

It's a shame to see inXile tie itself up with promises that aren't good for the games ... of course due to the nature of their sales angle, breaking promises would do them a lot of damage as well. Kinda no-win for them. For us the best case scenario would be if their designers had excellent instincts that they trusted (and we could trust) up to and including making alterations. That's not how they operate though, it's about sticking to Brian's pronouncements come hell or high water.

With Wasteland 3, they took a new tack, refusing to commit to any design decisions at all, it was worse than pulling teeth trying to find out what the damn game was actually going to be. This didn't work out real well for them either, turning some of their strongest supporters against them.
 
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Self-Ejected

theSavant

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
sounds like they need to convince their own employees from the game:


inXile CEO:
makeawish.png
"it has come to my attention, that not even employees of the company bought the game"
inxile employees: :Muhm... :oops: heh... :| well... +Mmmm... :roll: .....
iseewhatyoudid.png
grmpf?...
thinking.png
hmm...
sweatonmybrow.png
phew...

inXile CEO:
makeawish.png
"because of that we create a marketing branch, which markets the game within our own company"

inxile employees:
wtfamireading.png
wat...
iseewhatyoudid.png
srsly?... :? brng...
quality_shit.png
quality sh... :mad: fffu...
rating_retarded.png
ugh...
rating_negativeman.png
gnaaw...
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,825
Imagine being an inXile employee and actually having to pay to own the games the company makes.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
13,062
Graph paper? I can buy that shit at staples. I don’t need special BT4 lettered graph paper. That’s just excessive waste.
 
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theSavant

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
Just have to repeat this shit, because I noticed it again when creating new party members:

When you create a character, you see a 3d model of the character. And then you must select a 2d portrait for the character. These 2d portraits however look totally different than the 3d models. Why the fuck??? Either give me 3d models with corresponding 2d portraits, or just give me only 2d portraits without that 3d crap. But not some shitty inconsistent mixture. What's the point of being able to see "how armor looks on my 3d character" if I never see that 3d character in action? What's the point of it, if all I can see in the battle is a spare 2d portrait (which has nothing to do with the 3d model anyways), not even showing the various armor, swords or helmets? What a nonsense. A waste of implementation. Just shows again how this game was created. A patchwork of things that made half sense half nonsense. Difficult to enjoy when it's so obvious.
 
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Self-Ejected

theSavant

Self-Ejected
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Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
The "gridmode" comes in the next patch, said a developer in the steam forums. No ETA for the patch yet.

Can't say I'm thrilled about that gridmode though... with so many other things that should be changed...

Btw. after the disastrous release of Underworld Ascendant I kinda imagine Brian Fargo being relieved that others fucked up too :lol:
It really seems to be a year of fuck-ups...
 

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