Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[vortex]

'We won't announce that we will announce PK2.'

 

[Delterius]

Owlcat Games not announcing Pathfinder 2

I think this is what it looks like when a company shit posts. What a tease.

you know nothing

now, this

this is a shitpost

 

[Trashos]

OK, can someone help me out here? The description of Knowledge Arcana says that this skill is useful for handling scrolls, but I thought that was handled by Magic Device? Does Knowledge Arcana do anything useful with using scrolls, inscribing scrolls or even number of spell slots?

Also, I found the Codex's quest at Pitax!

 

[Pink Eye]

OK, can someone help me out here? The description of Knowledge Arcana says that this skill is useful for handling scrolls, but I thought that was handled by Magic Device? Does Knowledge Arcana do anything useful with using scrolls, inscribing scrolls or even number of spell slots?

Also, I found the Codex's quest at Pitax!

>but I thought that was handled by Magic Device
Yes, this is true. UMD is used to use scrolls.

>Does Knowledge Arcana do anything useful with using scrolls, inscribing scrolls or even number of spell slots?
Not that I know of. It's mainly used to identify items, and also for skill checks.

 

[Seari]

OK, can someone help me out here? The description of Knowledge Arcana says that this skill is useful for handling scrolls, but I thought that was handled by Magic Device? Does Knowledge Arcana do anything useful with using scrolls, inscribing scrolls or even number of spell slots?

Also, I found the Codex's quest at Pitax!

 

[Desiderius]

OK, can someone help me out here? The description of Knowledge Arcana says that this skill is useful for handling scrolls, but I thought that was handled by Magic Device? Does Knowledge Arcana do anything useful with using scrolls, inscribing scrolls or even number of spell slots?

Also, I found the Codex's quest at Pitax!

>but I thought that was handled by Magic Device
Yes, this is true. UMD is used to use scrolls.

>Does Knowledge Arcana do anything useful with using scrolls, inscribing scrolls or even number of spell slots?
Not that I know of. It's mainly used to identify items, and also for skill checks.

You get a check for determining stats on certain monsters with it. You can get it into the 50s and need to in some cases.

 

[Erebus]

I really like the combat in Kingmaker. The only significant flaw, in my opinion, is that it's sometimes hard to select things with precision when you're in the middle of a fight.

It's especially the case when you're trying to move one of your PCs to a precise spot. You select the PC, and then click on the destination... oops, you've accidentally selected another PC ! ...let's try again... oops, nope, this time, you've clicked on the body of an enemy you've just killed.

It's not exactly a big deal, but it can be kind of annoying. When several of your PCs are close together, it's really easy to select a PC you don't want to select (especially when said PC is Enlarged). And why is it even possible to click on the bodies of slain enemies during a fight ? That's unnecessary, and it makes things more confusing when there are a lot of bodies all around your PCs.

 

[Tiger]

I really like the combat in Kingmaker. The only significant flaw, in my opinion, is that it's sometimes hard to select things with precision when you're in the middle of a fight.

It's especially the case when you're trying to move one of your PCs to a precise spot. You select the PC, and then click on the destination... oops, you've accidentally selected another PC ! ...let's try again... oops, nope, this time, you've clicked on the body of an enemy you've just killed.

It's not exactly a big deal, but it can be kind of annoying. When several of your PCs are close together, it's really easy to select a PC you don't want to select (especially when said PC is Enlarged). And why is it even possible to click on the bodies of slain enemies during a fight ? That's unnecessary, and it makes things more confusing when there are a lot of bodies all around your PCs.

Yeah it can be a bit tricky. Camera rotation mod helps.

 

[ArchAngel]

I really like the combat in Kingmaker. The only significant flaw, in my opinion, is that it's sometimes hard to select things with precision when you're in the middle of a fight.

It's especially the case when you're trying to move one of your PCs to a precise spot. You select the PC, and then click on the destination... oops, you've accidentally selected another PC ! ...let's try again... oops, nope, this time, you've clicked on the body of an enemy you've just killed.

It's not exactly a big deal, but it can be kind of annoying. When several of your PCs are close together, it's really easy to select a PC you don't want to select (especially when said PC is Enlarged). And why is it even possible to click on the bodies of slain enemies during a fight ? That's unnecessary, and it makes things more confusing when there are a lot of bodies all around your PCs.

Hold CTRL + left click and you will never accidentally select stuff.

As for bodies, in options you can turn off looting during combat.

 

[Tiger]

As for bodies, in options you can turn off looting during combat.

You legend. Thanks.

 

[Trashos]

I really like the combat in Kingmaker. The only significant flaw, in my opinion, is that it's sometimes hard to select things with precision when you're in the middle of a fight.

I like the combat too, and there are a lot of things I like about the Pathfinder system as well.

Since it is clear (to me) that the top tier of RTwP games are BG2 and Kingmaker, I want to make some comparisons and point out where Kingmaker loses to BG2 imo or where it could have been better independently.

Some combat/system-related things that could have been better in Kingmaker are the following:

- QoL: no button to switch weapons, no access to action bars in the capital, I had one more but I am forgetting (EDIT: Even when manual handling of action bars is selected, spells that used to be memorized but not any more are automatically taken off the action bar. What part of "manual" didn't the designer understand?).
- The Pathfinder system is very rich and interesting, however it does not support debuffing wars like in BG2.
- One consequence of the above is that it is much harder to make interesting fights against single opponents in Kingmaker. There are some, but in this category it seems to lose to BG2 (I am not finished with Kingmaker yet, though).
- Another stupid consequence of this is that strong opponents often have several minions around them, which I find kinda insulting (PoE had the same problem to an even greater degree). As I said, the system does not support single opponents very well.
- Another semi-consequence of the above is that a lot of fights are against sizeable armies. That's interesting sometimes, but it also supports the people who claim that RTwP is a clustefuck. I wanted more single opponents and less huge battles.
- As in BG2, plenty of buffs are "always great". This probably needs work.
- The best fights are often amassed one after the other in certain dungeons on the main path. I consider this to be a mistake. BG2 had most of the best fights outside the main path, and I think it worked better, because I could confront them when I felt like it and not because I had to. Also, if you put your best fights on the main path, most of your customers are going to be asking you to nerf them, and you will end up with nothing.

On the bright side, the Pathfinder system is very rich, the classes are generally much better than in BG2, the "find the opponent's weakness and focus on it" style is interesting, and several dungeons and fights are very interesting to go through. Kingdom management, camping management, the skills and skill checks, and the equal-ish support of various alignments are other advantages that Kingmaker has over BG2. (EDIT: Teamwork abilities are very cool too)

 

[Pink Eye]

I really like the combat in Kingmaker. The only significant flaw, in my opinion, is that it's sometimes hard to select things with precision when you're in the middle of a fight.

It's especially the case when you're trying to move one of your PCs to a precise spot. You select the PC, and then click on the destination... oops, you've accidentally selected another PC ! ...let's try again... oops, nope, this time, you've clicked on the body of an enemy you've just killed.

It's not exactly a big deal, but it can be kind of annoying. When several of your PCs are close together, it's really easy to select a PC you don't want to select (especially when said PC is Enlarged). And why is it even possible to click on the bodies of slain enemies during a fight ? That's unnecessary, and it makes things more confusing when there are a lot of bodies all around your PCs.

Hold CTRL + left click and you will never accidentally select stuff.

As for bodies, in options you can turn off looting during combat.

>As for bodies, in options you can turn off looting during combat
Wtf. How did I miss that....

 

[ArchAngel]

I really like the combat in Kingmaker. The only significant flaw, in my opinion, is that it's sometimes hard to select things with precision when you're in the middle of a fight.

I like the combat too, and there are a lot of things I like about the Pathfinder system as well.

Since it is clear (to me) that the top tier of RTwP games are BG2 and Kingmaker, I want to make some comparisons and point out where Kingmaker loses to BG2 imo or where it could have been better independently.

Some combat/system-related things that could have been better in Kingmaker are the following:

- QoL: no button to switch weapons, no access to action bars in the capital, I had one more but I am forgetting (EDIT: Even when manual handling of action bars is selected, spells that used to be memorized but not any more are automatically taken off the action bar. What part of "manual" didn't the designer understand?).
- The Pathfinder system is very rich and interesting, however it does not support debuffing wars like in BG2.
- One consequence of the above is that it is much harder to make interesting fights against single opponents in Kingmaker. There are some, but in this category it seems to lose to BG2 (I am not finished with Kingmaker yet, though).
- Another stupid consequence of this is that strong opponents often have several minions around them, which I find kinda insulting (PoE had the same problem to an even greater degree). As I said, the system does not support single opponents very well.
- Another semi-consequence of the above is that a lot of fights are against sizeable armies. That's interesting sometimes, but it also supports the people who claim that RTwP is a clustefuck. I wanted more single opponents and less huge battles.
- As in BG2, plenty of buffs are "always great". This probably needs work.
- The best fights are often amassed one after the other in certain dungeons on the main path. I consider this to be a mistake. BG2 had most of the best fights outside the main path, and I think it worked better, because I could confront them when I felt like it and not because I had to. Also, if you put your best fights on the main path, most of your customers are going to be asking you to nerf them, and you will end up with nothing.

On the bright side, the Pathfinder system is very rich, the classes are generally much better than in BG2, the "find the opponent's weakness and focus on it" style is interesting, and several dungeons and fights are very interesting to go through. Kingdom management, camping management, the skills and skill checks, and the equal-ish support of various alignments are other advantages that Kingmaker has over BG2. (EDIT: Teamwork abilities are very cool too)

BG2 was find enemy mage weakness and focus on it. In PKM many more enemies are tough and you need to find their weakness.
But Mages do need an AI boost. While they should not be as scary as in PnP, they should be scarier than this. I wish there was at least one mage that escapes when dropped to half life but not killed before his turn and then it chooses randomly when you rest to teleport in and attack you party so at least we get one PnP like Mage encounter

 

[Desiderius]

I really like the combat in Kingmaker. The only significant flaw, in my opinion, is that it's sometimes hard to select things with precision when you're in the middle of a fight.

I like the combat too, and there are a lot of things I like about the Pathfinder system as well.

Since it is clear (to me) that the top tier of RTwP games are BG2 and Kingmaker, I want to make some comparisons and point out where Kingmaker loses to BG2 imo or where it could have been better independently.

Some combat/system-related things that could have been better in Kingmaker are the following:

- QoL: no button to switch weapons, no access to action bars in the capital, I had one more but I am forgetting (EDIT: Even when manual handling of action bars is selected, spells that used to be memorized but not any more are automatically taken off the action bar. What part of "manual" didn't the designer understand?).
- The Pathfinder system is very rich and interesting, however it does not support debuffing wars like in BG2.
- One consequence of the above is that it is much harder to make interesting fights against single opponents in Kingmaker. There are some, but in this category it seems to lose to BG2 (I am not finished with Kingmaker yet, though).
- Another stupid consequence of this is that strong opponents often have several minions around them, which I find kinda insulting (PoE had the same problem to an even greater degree). As I said, the system does not support single opponents very well.
- Another semi-consequence of the above is that a lot of fights are against sizeable armies. That's interesting sometimes, but it also supports the people who claim that RTwP is a clustefuck. I wanted more single opponents and less huge battles.
- As in BG2, plenty of buffs are "always great". This probably needs work.
- The best fights are often amassed one after the other in certain dungeons on the main path. I consider this to be a mistake. BG2 had most of the best fights outside the main path, and I think it worked better, because I could confront them when I felt like it and not because I had to. Also, if you put your best fights on the main path, most of your customers are going to be asking you to nerf them, and you will end up with nothing.

On the bright side, the Pathfinder system is very rich, the classes are generally much better than in BG2, the "find the opponent's weakness and focus on it" style is interesting, and several dungeons and fights are very interesting to go through. Kingdom management, camping management, the skills and skill checks, and the equal-ish support of various alignments are other advantages that Kingmaker has over BG2. (EDIT: Teamwork abilities are very cool too)

The hardest fights are outside the main path.

 

[Trashos]

BG2 was find enemy mage weakness and focus on it. In PKM many more enemies are tough and you need to find their weakness.
But Mages do need an AI boost. While they should not be as scary as in PnP, they should be scarier than this. I wish there was at least one mage that escapes when dropped to half life but not killed before his turn and then it chooses randomly when you rest to teleport in and attack you party so at least we get one PnP like Mage encounter

In BG2 we had to take down the defenses of the enemy mage, withstand his assault for a few rounds until we had taken his defenses down, and only then cut him down.

Gazillions of debuffing spells: Dispel Magic, Remove Magic, Secret Word, Pierce Magic, Spell Thrust, Pierce Shield, Khelben's Warding Whip, Lower Resistance.

Gazillions of defensive spells: (minor) Spell Shield, Globe of Invulnerability, (improved) Mantle, (minor) Spell Deflection, (minor) Spell Turning, Mirror Image, Mislead, Project Image, Protection from Normal/Magic Weapons, Protection from Elements, Spell Trap, Stoneskin.

Some of the best fun I have ever had while gaming was figuring out what debuffs I should prepare against every mage in BG2, and managing my defense until his defenses were down. This complex debuffing mingame is largely absent in Pathfinder.

 

[Lambach]

In PKM many more enemies are tough and you need to find their weakness.

Hardly. Every single encounter in the game can be beaten by pre-buffing like hell and just stabbing the cunt, assuming a decently built party. Good luck doing that against enemies with Protection From Magical Weapons/Absolute Immunity or Timestop in BG2.

 

[Trashos]

The hardest fights are outside the main path.

I am at Pitax currently, fighting in the Palace. Most of he best fights seem to be in the dungeons of the main path. Iirc, the only very good ones I have seen outside the main path are a couple of dragons/mini dragons, the Pitax Palace Architect, the Lonely Burrow dungeon if not done too late, and maybe a large bird that I forget where I faced.

The main path seems to be much more dominant in Kingmaker than in BG2.

 

[Desiderius]

The hardest fights are outside the main path.

I am at Pitax currently, fighting in the Palace. Most of he best fights seem to be in the dungeons of the main path. Iirc, the only very good ones I have seen outside the main path are a couple of dragons/mini dragons, the Pitax Palace Architect, the Lonely Burrow dungeon if not done too late, and maybe a large bird that I forget where I faced.

The main path seems to be much more dominant in Kingmaker than in BG2.

Super Trollhound add, Vordokai demon room, two hidden Devourers, Siroket, Ithulliak, Reaford off the top of my head and of course everything that gets people worked up in ch 1.

Farrinas is no pushover on Unfair at any level.

 

[Pink Eye]

The hardest fights are outside the main path.

I am at Pitax currently, fighting in the Palace. Most of he best fights seem to be in the dungeons of the main path. Iirc, the only very good ones I have seen outside the main path are a couple of dragons/mini dragons, the Pitax Palace Architect, the Lonely Burrow dungeon if not done too late, and maybe a large bird that I forget where I faced.

The main path seems to be much more dominant in Kingmaker than in BG2.

Super Trollhound add,
Vordokai demon room, two hidden Devourers, Siroket, Reaford of the top of my head and of course everything that gets people worked up in ch 1.

reee Viscount Smoulderburn!

 

[Efe]

probably that wisp + wererat cave make up %50 of player deaths in game

 

[LannTheStupid]

probably that wisp + wererat cave make up %50 of player deaths in game

That's after nerfing the spider swarms.

 

[Daidre]

In BG2 we had to take down the defenses of the enemy mage, withstand his assault for a few rounds until we had taken his defenses down, and only then cut him down.

Gazillions of debuffing spells: Dispel Magic, Remove Magic, Secret Word, Pierce Magic, Spell Thrust, Pierce Shield, Khelben's Warding Whip, Lower Resistance.

Gazillions of defensive spells: (minor) Spell Shield, Globe of Invulnerability, (improved) Mantle, (minor) Spell Deflection, (minor) Spell Turning, Mirror Image, Mislead, Project Image, Protection from Normal/Magic Weapons, Protection from Elements, Spell Trap, Stoneskin.

Whole multitude of defense spells in BG 2 has a one huge glaring hole - they do not cover persistent AoE damage. Only thing required is to be one step ahead of Globes of Invulnerability and having Ice Storm > Cloudkill > Death Fog (Acid!) > Incendiary Cloud > Meteor Swarm + Fire Storm + Dragon Breath (ignores MR). These spells hit through all buffs and could kill any mage and even cool SCS scripting won't help.

In the end best way to deal with mage duels in BG 2, once you know game well enouph, is not to bother with counterspells and nuke/dispel them with Inquisitor/Thief Traps/Persistent AoE.

 

[Trashos]

Eh, where is the fun in that? BG2 has plenty of cheesy tactics, Kingmaker has cheesy tactics too, but the beauty of these games is revealed when the cheesy tactics are not used.

 

[Daidre]

I would call Thief Traps cheesy, but why hitting them with one from dozen of simple spells is cheesy?

And I was talking about original BG 2.
Most fixpacks and EE (assimilated big community fixes) removed unintended anti-AoE effect on many defense spells and something as simple as fireball could often do a work and makes holes in spell defenses big enough for cavalry to go through.
And I should ignore it because there is beauty in filling your spellbook with breaches, secret words and warding whips?

 

[Trashos]

I am talking about original BG2 too. I don't use mods for it, but I restrain myself as to what tactics I can use.

An I should ignore it because there is beauty in filling your spellbook with breaches, secret words and warding whips?

Yes! You may also discover that it brings about gameplay that fits perfectly with RTwP- it probably wouldn't be so great with TB for example. It is like RTwP was made for it. But whatever floats your boat.

The main problem is that most people cheese those fights, so that kind of prestigious combat design never had the influence it should, and did not propagate. Still, the doctors were geniuses, and it shows.