Interview Feargus strikes again: NWN, KotNR, and IWD2

[littleboy]

Apperently my decision to avoid lionheart dispite being $6 (canadian) in the discount bin was wise beyond my years.

Now if I can just find a damn copy of Planescape: Tourment (that's under $70 on ebay and not shipping from england) i'll finally be happy cuz I'm thinking that's there ain't no chance in hell anything by Interplay is ever going to be realised again, oh except for the "fallout mmorpg:pos, good old comical ali hearve keeps talking about. That and Grim Fandago that is (Damn lucas arts for not shipping to canada, what are we on the frikin moon).

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Did you not get a good enough idea of Feargus' opinion of his ability to accomplish what needed to be accomplished by the fact that he left Black Isle?

I just figured he finally got smart.

PS. You never did answer my question about whether or not you've played Romero a round of Doom 2 deathmatch.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's unreasonable to expect a manager to manage a large number of projects with dwindling resources under duress.

Isn't that what they are being paid big bucks for? Also, should we expect the quality to drop if Obsidian ever starts working on more then 2 projects at a time?

Did you not get a good enough idea of Feargus' opinion of his ability to accomplish what needed to be accomplished by the fact that he left Black Isle?

Huh? Anybody can quit, that proves nothing, especially considering the direction BIS and Interplay were going at. Now, the fact that he's managed to establish a company, got people, and games to work on does speak highly of him. However, whether his company can create quality games *consistently* remains to be seen.

 

[Nomad]

whitemithrandir,

1. Multiplayer is not the same as PW support. NWN's multiplayer model was focused on a small group of players and a live DM.

2. NWN was intended as a 3rd Ed. D&D game, not a generic RPG system. The ability to make certain modificaions that would take the game away from D&D were explicitly and deliberately left out (or at least not directly supported) due to WotC and Hasbro direction.

3. Can you be more specific? I never noticed any significant "incompatibilities" between the game and the toolset. (What does that have to do with multiplayer support, by the way?)

4. I might be wrong about this, but I don't think the Archmage Prestige classes was in the original 3rd Ed. D&D Core Rulebooks. Many things like Psionics, the Manual of the Planes and even the Forgotten Realms source books weren't included because they came out years after the design of NWN had been more or less nailed down. (Again, how is this a lack of multiplayer support issue?)

5. True. (Again, how is this a lack of multiplayer support issue?)

6. See point 2. above.

7. See point 5. above.

8. See point 7. above.

9. True.

While there may be problems in their implementation of 3rd Ed. D&D, I think NWN did a fine job of replicating the pnp tabletop rpg experience (given the maturity of the medium at the time).


N.

 

[Spazmo]

4. The Archmage wasn't in until (IIRC) the FRCS, but take a look at your 3.0 DMG on page 35. See that Loremaster prestige class? The one with "+1 level of existing class" spells per day? The one that doesn't work in NWN without massive fudging? Yeah.

And dismissing point 5-9 is pretty lame. They affect modding if not MP and--surprise surprise--modding is a core part of MP.

 

[Nomad]

Okay, I wasn't sure if there was a similar PrC in the core rulebooks. Thanks for the clarification.

I wasn't dismissing points 5 through 9:

5. I agreed is a concern, but it is not a multiplayer-only issue.

6. Is a restriction based on the fact that they wanted it to remain a D&D game as much as possible (similar to my response to point 2).

7. I agreed is a concern, but it is not a multiplayer-only issue.

8. I agreed is a concern, but it is not a multiplayer-only issue.

9. I totally agreed with because, as you said, it goes to module creation which is part of the NWN multiplayer model.

Does that make more sense?

At a fundamental level, NWN was not intended to support the traditional mod concept. That is, supporting the modification of rules and game systems were off-limits due to WotC and Hasbro constraints. The NWN model is centered around the module concept - making a 3rd Ed. D&D adventure. Many of whitemithrandir's points seem to indicate he was expecting the former and not the latter.


N.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Personally, I feel Baldur's Gate 2 has been the best game to capture the ambience and heroic theme of D&D; that Torment was the best game to capture the roleplaying and immersion of D&D; and ToEE was the best game to capture the gameplay elements and rules of D&D; but I think that NWN is, quite possibly, the only package out there which provides the tools to create game sessions that in a way replicate the spirit of D&D.

However, I think the basic problem there is that while it does provide several necessary tools, its still undermined by several factors. A DM in a PnP session may want to modify rules, something that the hardcoding doesn't seem to have allowed for.

Multiplayer is, by and far, still very different from an actual PnP session, because of gameplay needing players' grasp of the interface. You are also basically roleplaying - or trying to - with faceless strangers who can play as they want, even out of character, thus diminishing (if not entirely ruining) the game. That kind of situation is much easier to control in actual PnP. It may have been one of the reasons why it felt too limiting in certain regards, and only dedicted builders managed to circumvent some of those restrictions.

True, these last two factors are, and will keep on being, present in every other similar project, including NWN2. They're not a NWN-related problem, although its inherent to the genre because of the transition.

Ultimately, it tried to provide for the experience, but was severely undermined.

 

[Voss]

Huh? Anybody can quit, that proves nothing, especially considering the direction BIS and Interplay were going at. Now, the fact that he's managed to establish a company, got people, and games to work on does speak highly of him. However, whether his company can create quality games *consistently* remains to be seen.

Or at all. We haven't seen an Obsidian produced title yet.
KotoR 2 looks like it might end up as a decent game, but nothing special (the 'yet another Star Wars game' factor) . But we'll see.

role-player. I agree, the format limits the game too much. Mostly because if you aren't killing things, sneaking, or having an in-character chat, there isn't anything you can do. Rather than go in any direction (literally and metaphorically speaking) as you can in a PnP session, you're stuck with the limits of technology and the engine.

 

[Volourn]

"A DM in a PnP session may want to modify rules, something that the hardcoding doesn't seem to have allowed for."

Eh? you can modify rules in NWN/ Of course, there's limits; but those limits are pretty braod. I mean, it's a D&D game; not a space game like some people have begged for. LOL

Just take a gander at the HCR set. The main PW I play one has basically changed rules of almost everything from spells to feats to skills to death and yes respawning (*puke*)

 

[whitemithrandir]

3. Can you be more specific? I never noticed any significant "incompatibilities" between the game and the toolset. (What does that have to do with multiplayer support, by the way?)

Various changes to tileset or simple misarrangements (ex. scripting special spell effects over light emitting tiles or modifying creature faces/bodies) would cause unexpected engine crashes and permanent graphics glitches that more often than not cannot be fixed without a restart (for example the infamous headless dwarf model that the engine threw at you if you specified a model that it didn't recognize, even though you specifically told the engine its location via a script). Granted, the majority of it was fixed in the expansions, but by that time, the mod community had already fixed it via their own means.

At a fundamental level, NWN was not intended to support the traditional mod concept. That is, supporting the modification of rules and game systems were off-limits due to WotC and Hasbro constraints. The NWN model is centered around the module concept - making a 3rd Ed. D&D adventure. Many of whitemithrandir's points seem to indicate he was expecting the former and not the latter.
N.

Well, a D&D adventure should stick to D&D rules, not Bioware house rules. My issue isn't with the rules being inflexible, it's with the entire toolset (which according to volourn is the focus of NWN) being inflexible, therefore resulting in carbon copy modules that differ little from each other and offer very little innovation to the multiplayer community. Don't get me wrong, there are massively enjoyable NWN modules out there. But if you look at the top modules, all of them come with custom hak packs and object files and 5000 line scripts that modders themselves created to bypass Bioware's hard coding.

Bottom line: whatever little success NWN multiplayer achieved has very little to do with Bioware's efforts in "focusing" the game towards multiplayer.

 

[whitemithrandir]

Just take a gander at the HCR set. The main PW I play one has basically changed rules of almost everything from spells to feats to skills to death and yes respawning (*puke*)

Volourn: YOU DO realize that HCR has over 12000 lines of scripting spread over 50 megs in custom ref files... right?

You can change the rules... Bioware just made it unneccessarily difficult.

And HoTU wasn't a single player game and I've absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The campaign modules can be played online and have been played online with multiple people. Check NWN vault and tell me otherwise. You can ignore my posts and dismiss them as trolls, but to me that's just a shorthanded way of saying I'm right.

Sit down, volo, you're done.

 

[Spazmo]

Hordes of the Underdark was indeed designed as a single player campaign. IIRC, you have to install some sort of hack to co-op it.

 

[suibhne]

That and Grim Fandago that is (Damn lucas arts for not shipping to canada, what are we on the frikin moon).

Order it from GoGamer - $9.90.

 

[whitemithrandir]

Hordes of the Underdark was indeed designed as a single player campaign. IIRC, you have to install some sort of hack to co-op it.

Ah, yes, I downloaded a community package from NWN Vault which included a modification for the HoTU campaign. Oh well, no problem, my points still stand.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

"A DM in a PnP session may want to modify rules, something that the hardcoding doesn't seem to have allowed for."

Eh? you can modify rules in NWN/ Of course, there's limits; but those limits are pretty braod. I mean, it's a D&D game; not a space game like some people have begged for. LOL

Just take a gander at the HCR set. The main PW I play one has basically changed rules of almost everything from spells to feats to skills to death and yes respawning (*puke*)

You can't change the rules on the fly to fit the scenario you're wanting to get across. Likewise, the players certainly can't do everything possible they can do in a D&D PnP session in NWN.

 

[Ausir]

Eh? you can modify rules in NWN/ Of course, there's limits; but those limits are pretty braod. I mean, it's a D&D game; not a space game like some people have begged for. LOL

One does not exclude the other - remember Spelljammer?

 

[Feargus Urquhart]

So I guess what I need to learn is just not to every open my mouth unless it iis about our amazing crate technology.

Anyway, the idea of double pressing W is just an idea - we need to put it in to see if it works right. It might turn out that it's a really dumb idea (probably even odds right now), which means we won't ship with it. However, at least exploring things like this makes us think about the game's controls and maybe we'll come up with something better than what is currently in there because we are looking into it.

As for IWD3. I would like to make it, but I'm not sure what kind of product it would be now. We did the original IWD because we thought we had a good alternative to BG and I think it worked. At this point, I know we couldn't do the same thing if we did it as a counterpoint (not exactly the right word, but probably get my meaning) to the NWN/NWN2 products.

 

[Spazmo]

Fearg, be careful. If you try to make a D&D game that's even more hack n slashy and linear than NWN, you'll be in real trouble as the space time continuum will tear open.

 

[Feargus Urquhart]

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

So I guess what I need to learn is just not to every open my mouth unless it iis about our amazing crate technology.

But then you'd never have all these people tell you, Holy crap, Fearg! That's an awful idea! :D

Anyway, the idea of double pressing W is just an idea - we need to put it in to see if it works right. It might turn out that it's a really dumb idea (probably even odds right now), which means we won't ship with it. However, at least exploring things like this makes us think about the game's controls and maybe we'll come up with something better than what is currently in there because we are looking into it.

One big reason that won't work is the six second round deal. You do your double tap W, half moon left, S, S, A special super move stuff, and you could be waiting up to five and a half seconds to see if it's going to do it. Then again, it's D&D, and D&D has six second rounds, so.. A lot of rules rely on that six second bit for their timing, like distance moved, spell times, duration, and so forth. You could just do the math to make it feel more real time-ish, but I think you're going to run in to even more problems that route than you would otherwise just for the sake of having WASD fighting game style controls.

As for IWD3. I would like to make it, but I'm not sure what kind of product it would be now. We did the original IWD because we thought we had a good alternative to BG and I think it worked. At this point, I know we couldn't do the same thing if we did it as a counterpoint (not exactly the right word, but probably get my meaning) to the NWN/NWN2 products.

The problem with IWD3 would be you'd have to make a decent tactical engine. I'm not sure IWD really did work. It might have sold well, but IWD2 wasn't really anticipated by many of the people who bought IWD - obviously. If you're going to make a dungeon crawler, the tactical game has to basically be able to stand on it's own. Infinity Engine combat just doesn't cut it.

Besides, I thought you were sick of making D&D games?

 

[Talorc]

As for IWD3. I would like to make it, but I'm not sure what kind of product it would be now.

I'd love you to make it as well! I'd agree that IWD (and IWD II) worked well as the more "dungeon crawler" oriented product in the Infinity Engine series. Personally, I enjoyed IWD more than BG. I never really enjoyed the party NPC interaction BG had going on, I prefered to make my own Party. (The preference probably comes from playing the old Gold Box games - I find myself recreating a lot of my Curse of the Azure bonds characters a lot :D )

The problem with IWD3 would be you'd have to make a decent tactical engine.

I hear Troika has a VERY damn FINE D&D Tactical engine, that doesnt really seem to be doing much at the moment!

IWD 3 on the ToEE engine would defintely be the sweet sauce!!

Licencing shouldnt be too much of a hassle. I imagine getting the engine licence from the Troika guys would be pretty easy - hopefully they retain the engine rights, not Atari. In any event Atari, is one of your publishers now

The "Icewind Dale" name could be a hassle? Did Interplay keep that one? Or did the name revert back to Atari with the D&D licence? (I am thinking it did, seeing a Icewind Dale is also a "place" within the Forgotten Realms)

You also need the D&D licence too obviously. Atari already trusts you with their next huge "core" D&D rpg product, so I dont see why you couldnt get that.

So, should we hear an announcement soon then? I know that everyone wants Obsidian to develop their "own" IPs - but in a way "Icewind Dale" is their own IP - a lot of the guys that worked on creating the original IWD are at Obsidian now anyway. Maybe you could temp JE away from being Romero's bitch? :D

 

[Sammael]

Besides, I thought you were sick of making D&D games?

He thought so too, until Bioware told him otherwise.

:whistles innocently:

 

[Avin]

hey, feargus, just make an agreement with bio and atari and troika and do a remake of iwd and bg1+tosc using toee's engine :p

ah... the utopia...

 

[StraitLacedDeviant]

hey, feargus, just make an agreement with bio and atari and troika and do a remake of iwd and bg1+tosc using toee's engine :p

ah... the utopia...

:shock:

 

[Volourn]

"I prefered to make my own Party."

I hope you realzie that this can *easily* be done in BG series as well.