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Baldur's Gate I was better than Baldur's Gate II

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by TemplarGR, May 20, 2018.

  1. TemplarGR Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Bethestard

    TemplarGR
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    Back in the 90s i was a teenager who owned a PSX and a PC. Having experienced stuff like Suikoden, Final Fantasy VII, and Vandal Hearts, back in 1997, i wanted to play RPGs on my PC as well, so i was starved for any RPG. I played most RPGs at the day of their release since then. I played and enjoyed all infinity engine games except Planescape torment (which i plan to play soon) for some odd reason, mainly because i couldn't find it anywhere to buy it in my country and i lost interest after a while.

    Recently i began an Enhanced Edition BG1 to Throne of Bhaal playthrough, including Siege of Dragonspear, in order to experience the story again. Now that i have completed it, i have to say that the original BG was miles ahead of the sequel in most things that matter. WARNING: This is going to be long.

    1) Graphics/Art/Music. BG1 had a good semi-realistic aesthetic. Most areas whether indoors or outdoors seemed believable. Characters and the bestiary looked decent. You could identify what an item was by its icon because it was mostly accurate. Fast forward BG2, and the design was trash. Item icons are retarded and often you keep smashing your head. Many new npc models like the arm soldiers are retarded. Try comparing wood areas in BGEE with BGIIEE. BgII artists tried to convey a desert-like aesthetic to BGII for some odd reason, despite the fact that in AMN there was no desert area... BGII graphics were better because of the newer engine and higher resolution, but playing BG1 with BG2's engine proves that BG1 had better art assets and direction. And this includes music, since music was better in BG1 as well. Again, in BG2, they tried to create kind-of-arabic music, that does not fit the theme in my opinion. BG1 music was more memorable and better.

    2) Story/Writting. BG1 had a simple but well-written story. SPOILERS! Sarevok, a bhaalspawn, has made an elaborate plan in order to take over the Iron Throne and create a bloody chaos in Sword Coast. He taints the iron produced in the only known mine in the region, he uses mercenaries to stop iron/weapon caravans, and uses an ancient dwarven mine in order to mine his own uncorrupted ore. He plans on blaming the iron crisis on AMN in order to provoke a war and then sell weapons to baldur's gate and become a saviour, all the while reveling in destruction. This destruction will fuel his advancement to Godhood. This Sarevok knows you are bhaalspawn, so he comes to kill you. Your foster father tries to protect you but fails. You end up on your own and manage to uncover stuff about your past and about Sarevok as you battle the region's troubles. In the end you kill Sarevok and destroy his plans. GREAT story, believable.

    Fast Forward to BG2 and the writters went on meth. A superman, nay, someone who would be superman to residents of Crypton according to his powers, manages to capture your whole party without a fight. Then does some experiments on you and Imoen, your "sister" bhaalspawn that inexplicably Sarevok didn't look to kill and you never knew she was Bhaalspawn till then, but Irenicus knew, because he is not only superman but all-knowing as well. Apparently this Irenicus was deprived of his soul and his connection to the elves, but somehow didn't lose his magical powers. The elves knew Irenicus was dangerous and wanted to become God himself even at the cost of the whole elven race, and instead of sentencing him to death or at least restraining him, they removed his soul without removing his godlike powers and unleashed him to wreak havok to the rest of the world... Believable story-writting right there. A fight erupts while Irenicus is torturing you because apparently the thieves guild has too many idle thieves and wants them to die at the hands of this superman. Irenicus goes to single handendly destroy whole legions of assassins while you wonder in his dungeon and find your way out. As you find your way out, you find Irenicus and Imoen after having witnessed his immense power decides to cast puny magic missiles on him. A bunch of lvl 1 wizards appear and want to arrest both and lock them in a lunatics assylum that no one escapes from, ever. Irenicus instead of just killing the whole mage population of Atkathla decides to go with them. Believable story writting again, right there. Oh and by the way, on your way out you meet Yoshimo, a bounty hunter that Irenicus hired to spy on your group, despite the fact that the attack on his place was surprising and he didn't know beforehand that you would escape, in order to arrange for someone to follow you... Or did he know? Well, Irenicus is for all intends and purposes a God, so he already knew, which begs the question why did he do all these if he knew you were going to slain him anyway, but i digress...

    After Irenicus and Imoen get captured, you try to find a way to free Imoen. For no reason at all, because who gives a fuck about her, but apparently you do because reasons. You can enlist the help of Shadow Thieves or the vampire sister of Irenicus, Bodhi. After you do a few miniquests to get some money, like helping a young lass liberate her castle from trolls and then lose it for no reason to someone she has not married, or get lured by a red dragon who hates you because your foster father battled him once, but when he has the opportunity to eat you alive he decides to let you live despite you having butchered his whole army of servants. Again, quality writting 101.

    You finally arrive at Spellhold, Irenicus steals the souls of you and imoen, but you don't die because apparently who needs a soul in order to live, amirite? Bodhi gets the order to kill you but decides to let you escape because it is more fun that way, and you end up destroying their plans and forcing them to leave. You discover you have the power to become Slayer, Bhaal's form, but you only acquired it because Irenicus stole Bhaal's essence from you. Yeah i know, makes sense. And the fact that you lose 2 reputation everytime you transform even if no one left alive sees you, makes sense too. You follow them to the underdark, you return to Athkatla, you kill Bodhi and get Imoen's soul back. Then you go to face Irenicus, who has drained the super-power of the elven life tree, and has your soul inside him as well, in addition to his immense spell power that never needs memorization and has unlimited spellcasts. You have to destroy 3 insect thingies which drain the tree's power and transfer it to Irenicus, before you can kill him. You can walk past Irenicus and he doesn't lift a finger to stop you. You can even move just behind his back for a quickie and he won't say a thing. After you kill the 3rd instect thingie you teleport to Irenicus and you dispatch him EZPZ, then for some reason you die with him, despite this not happening for imoen, and your whole party comes with you in bhaal's realm. then you have to face 5 tests in order to escape death. If you fail even 1, the game changes your alignment but doesn't notify you about it. I only knew i became lawful evil after i couldn't hold carsomyr anymore. Apparently i lost 1 out of 5 and the the game devs decided to troll me by forcing me to reload a save 30 minutes ago. Punks. You re-defeat Irenicus in hell, you win. the end. Superior writting, give the guys a trophy!

    3) Apparently BGII was the beginning of turning Bioware games into bad romance simulators. In an effort to make party members more believable, they allowed some romances to occur. I had experienced 2 in my playthroughs, and they both sucked huge black cock. My original playthrough i had Jaheira, a recently-made widow who took the death of Khalid very badly initially, to want to jump my bones after 2 hours. I realize my cock is sweet and all, but bitch, please, show some restraint. On my recent playthrough i prefered a virgin over the hot MILF i desired in my younger years, so i went with Aerie. After a whole history of tiresome dialogue by a mentally 3 year old, she offered herself to me for some hot sex. She really wanted it. And the next morning, she decided to abandon me. Did the writers want to imply that the Bhaalspawn has a small cock? Wasn't Aerie satisfied? But Jaheira was, and she supposedly had years of experience, so her hole must have been bigger. Perhaps Bhaalspawn had a big cock and Aerie was hurt? Don't know. All i know is that since in real life i had experiences with BPD girlfriends, i let her have her time and leave the party, thinking she would return after a while. Little did i know that this option would remove her from the game entirely. With the whole spellbook i taught her. Devs, fuck you! And please don't let virgins write romances, thanks.

    4) Enough with the crappy writting, lets talk gameplay, the worst part of BGII. In BGI, loot felt special. Magical weapons were rare and really helped you against enemies. And since you were low-leveled, every level you got counted. You could really feel the advancement in power. But while you became better, you were never overpowered. With BGII, and seeing the success of Diablo and the competition from Diablo II, Bioware devs decided that they needed to have tons of loot in their game. So they filled the whole area of AMN with +1 and +2 weapons like they were candies, and you could easily acquire +3 +4 and +5 weapons. And i won't mention the travesty of Throne of Bhaal where even the trashmobs were equiped to the teeth... And i have to ask, who created all those weapons since magic is apparently banned in Amn? And now that i think of it, this whole situation retkons Baldur's gate 1 plot. How come the southern neighbour of AMN has so many magic weapons and Baldur's gate not? Couldn't they buy some? And if AMN had that much military tech superiority, why didn't they conquer Baldur's gate already? Who cared about the iron shortage in BG1 when you could get tons and tons of +3 weapons from Amn? Why Nashkel had such a poor selection to buy? Why the tavern owner in a sieged city at the beginning of ToB has every +3 weapon and ammunition in the game to sell? If that tavern owner had moved to Baldur's Gate during the iron crisis he could have been rich. LOL.

    And the situation with the abundance of high level equipment created a big problem since if you were to gain high levels and tons of magical equipment, the game would become a cakewalk. But no worries, Bioware devs to the rescue: They filled the world with tons of high level spellcasters that spam lvl9 magicks as soon as they see you! It is so much fun having a spellcaster time stop and destroy your party. It is so much fun in every battle having half your party held and the other half charmed or confused. Not to mention level drain. And mind flayers are awesome. It is so much fun having a paladin with -20 saving throws and -10 armor class and still die in 2 hits because intelligence drain, and having to reload again. And that is how BGII battles go, at least if you are not using easy mode like most fags. You quicksave every 30 seconds, you get a battle, if the RNG is bad you lose, savescum until you win! Even if you win, most likely you are going to have 1-2 members killed, so raise dead and slog through the process of re-equiping them again, only to have them die a minute later and repeat. I have lost count how many times Minsk died and has been risen. Minsk, even Boo can take more than you, moron.

    In BG1, i only had to savescum vs Sarevok because he is the final boss and he is retarded, and when a basilisk petrified me. In BG2 i had to savescum every 10 meters of gamemap. I even encountered fucking kobold mages with high level magicks! I once went through a beholder dungeon and in the southeast corner 15 beholders expected me in the same room. FUCK! I mean, even the sprites of the fat bastards don't fit in there. Balanced gameplay Bioware, balanced gameplay...

    I have seen many idiots claiming that BGII had the best combat of infinity engine games. All i have to say is that the braindamage is strong with those people.

    In conclusion: All in all, BGII was still a good game, but in my opinion BG1 was the more focused and well-designed game. In my opinion BGII was rushed to cash on the success of the original, they tried to go bigger-larger-better in every way but didn't stop to think if all things they added were good. BGII has more of everything, higher levels, higher items, higher spells, higher resolution, more party banter, and people are condition to think that more is better. But while BG1 had a touch of genius, BGII was an overbloated mass-market successor. Playing both with their enhanced editions, without the poorer resolution and UI obstructing you, you realize BG1 was a better game. Plus it was openworld and non-linear, instead of the trashy railroad of the sequel. BG1 was the better game out of the BG saga, and Icewind Dale was better than both, but that would be best analyzed in another post.

    TL DR: If you think BGII is better than the original, your opinion is bad, you are bad, and you should feel bad.
     
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  2. Feyd Rautha Cipher Patron

    Feyd Rautha
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    Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    And what did you think of Dragonspear? :M
     
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  3. Tim the Bore Educated

    Tim the Bore
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    Yep.
     
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  4. Sykar Arcane

    Sykar
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    Nope.
     
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  5. ScrotumBroth Disco balls Patron

    ScrotumBroth
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    BG is special because it's the first, and because the struggle is real when you are lvl 1.
    Poisoned hobgoblin arrows and kobolds can end you. As a mage you are giving party wide handjobs to earn your keep until lvl 3. Every steal attempt as a thief is scrotum sweating, they can notice you easily.
    Every good item you find is like Jesus came back to life to give you a reach around.

    It's got that special atmosphere that was lost in BG2.

    They are both fantastic games, no point saying one is better than the other. You could make an argument that together they make the best cFRP series ever made. I reserve cRPG for Fallout 1 and 2.
     
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  6. J_C One Bit Studio Patron Developer

    J_C
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    This is my take as well. I like BG1 better because it just feels better to literally start from 0, and explore this hostile world as a weak character. BG2 is more fleshed out and bigger, but BG1 has that special place in my heart.
     
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  7. oldmanpaco Master of Siestas

    oldmanpaco
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    I like BG1 more now than 20 years ago. Not sure what's changed beyond SCS and some QoL mods. Maybe I just appreciate that style of roaming around more now.

    That said BG2 Chapter 2 is still the most fun I have had with an RPG.
     
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  8. Micormic Unwanted

    Unwanted
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    I think you made this to be edgy but I also liked Bg1 more then Bg2 for various reasons.



    Your post was too long so I didn't read it to see if I agree with your reasons so I'll refrain from commenting on it.
     
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  9. IncendiaryDevice Self-Ejected Village Idiot

    Self-Ejected
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    You mean you're both Swiss Toni?

     
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  10. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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    BG 1 is very boring and generic, nothing really interesting about it, and the wilderness areas are very filler-like.

    BG 2 has some more interesting things in it, goes more all-out with its fantasy setting, and the level range of around level 10 is more fun than low level D&D.

    BG 2 is objectively better than BG 1 in every single aspect.
     
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  11. Humanity has risen! Arcane Patron Repressed Homosexual

    Humanity has risen!
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    I completely disagree, like JarlFrank said it was filled with tons of boring filler plains and forests, most of the NPCs and dialogue were completely ridiculous, disjointed and amateurish, it lacked any sense of cohesion, and the story is literally about an evil villain that does a bunch of evil shit just because.
     
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  12. Micormic Unwanted

    Unwanted
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    The wilderness filler areas was what I liked more about BG 1 then 2. Sparse enough to be realistic and usually enough to make exploration worthwhile.


    BG2 once you got out of athkatla in chapter 2 was a shitty 30-40 hour grind fest in crammed corridors of boring enemies. Going from that shitty pirate island, to spellhold, to that shitty underwater city, to the shitty underdark to come back to athkatla and kill some shitty vampires, then go to some shithole elf city and kill some shitty golems, then to go to hell and grind through some more tedious enemies all while being taunted by a bald moron who's literally tormenting you for the lulz.

    The game should of ended at Spellhold, you rescue or don't rescue Imoen, you kill irenicus and maybe his sister, boom games over 30 hours no filler super good. Instead they made it another 40 hours of shit designed for people with autism, TOB was more of the same and even more grindy.



    BG1 > BG2 if you actually value gameplay, story and exploration. BG2 > BG1 if you enjoy larping.





    I didn't even get into the companions who in BG1 shut their mouths and did what they were told. In BG2 I had to deal with a collection of retards who somehow became more retarded(Minsc) More annoying(Imoen) More cringeworthy (Jaheira who wasn't cringeworthy at all and all of a sudden was trying to fuck me a week after her husband of how many decades died) to other annoying idiots trying to fuck me (Aerie.....). The only companions in BG2 I actually liked were Edwin and that paladin you find in the sewers.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
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  13. taviow Magister

    taviow
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    Not to mention the music was great. It fit perfectly with the exploration aspects of the game, and I have fonder memories of the BG1 soundtrack than BG2's, although both are great.

    Nothing in BG2 gives me quite that same feeling as exploring the wilderness in BG1. I love a low key adventure and BG1 did this perfectly. You don't have to worry about (and haven't even become aware of) Bhaalspawn issues yet, you're just some kid who had something really weird happen to them for all you know.

    It's such a humble beginning and it's just so cool to be out there in the world for the first time in your character's life, dealing with dangers you don't understand completely yet. You're just an adventurer making their way through the world. BG2 and beyond would never give off that feeling again.



     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
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  14. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

    PorkyThePaladin
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    Completely agree. BG1 is better than BG 2 in a lot of ways.

    Aside from a better story and loot progression, it also had a much better world structure, with adjacent zones put together to simulate a continous world, a sort of pseudo-open world game. BG2 ditched that to create the first Bioware hub structure, some areas where you get a bunch of quests, and then visit related several areas to do them. It feels significantly more linear.

    And don't even remind me of the grind of having to face one high level mage party after another.

    In fact, you can trace every thread of Biowarean decline to BG2. Just because it happens to be a good game, you can't see these threads stand out as obnoxiously as in their later games, but they are all there. Quest hubs, companion romances, emo stories that are supposed to be grandiose but are actually dull, and the endless stream of AWESOME (manifested in BG2 with endless EPIC things you run into, from downed spaceships to plane-shifting theaters to underwater cities, ffs you can't walk 2 steps in that game without walking into a dragon).
     
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  15. ScrotumBroth Disco balls Patron

    ScrotumBroth
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Twizman Educated

    Twizman
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    I grew up with BG2, it made me fall in love with the genre. With the advent of BGTutu, SCS, BG1NPC mod though, I find BG1 is the game I keep revisiting each year.

    I think the original game was a bit sparse in the wilderness areas. The modders did an amazing job fleshing it out with new encounters. BG2 feels comparitively bloated and a bit unrealistic in the sheer number of stuff going on in the vicinity of Athkatla. I still love BG2 of course.

    Coran feels like a great friend after all these years, I always pick him up when I start a new run. :)
     
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  17. Lyric Suite Converting to Islam

    Lyric Suite
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    I agree with most of that. My only problem with BG1 was that the combat was too damn easy. I actually liked the magic battles in BG2.

    The only exception was Durlags Tower, which pretty great.
     
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  18. aweigh Arcane

    aweigh
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    Oh man, I'm half-Japanese, and I can go on and on about how much weeaboos bother me... I'll try to keep this short.

    Having been born in Japan and going to youchien there (the equivalent of pre-school and kindergarten), I'm capable of holding conversations and reading hiragana and katakana. However, I've lived in America since 1st grade, and since English was the primary language spoken at home (Japanese mother, American father), my Japanese vocabulary isn't the same as if someone were to grow up in Japan, since I've spent 3/4's of my life in America. Because of that I'm working on expanding my Japanese vocabulary, but what really bothers me is that is seems like 95% of people in America that want to learn Japanese are fucking weirdos. It's really, really, REALLY annoying. And I know I'll get some hate for this, but I can't stand people who want to learn Japanese just to "watch anime without subtitles". Here in the US there's all these weirdos that fetishize Japanese people and are trying to learn a language just to watch fucking cartoons, while I'm trying to learn it so I can communicate with my mother and other family members better. Also annoying how these weeaboos can act so know-it-all about it, like they think it makes them "cool" just because they learned some Japanese words. Another annoying thing is when they claim that they have perfect pronunciation when in actuality their pronunciation is horrible - but oh no, they're convincedthat their pronunciation is 100% spot-on. I criiiiiinge so much whenever I hear people try to speak JapaEnglish with each other...

    What's even more annoying though is how these people claim that Japan is DA BEST PLACE EVERRRR and is one big anime wonderland. It's. Not. They don't know anything about (or more like, intentionally ignore) how Japan can be subconsciously xenophobic (even to hafu's like me), their birthrate is declining and their population is aging because women are choosing not to have children because while more women are choosing to work (which is good), society still has the mindset that "men work, women stay at home to raise the kids" (which is bad), and 12-hour work schedules aren't willing to accommodate raising children.

    Basically, I'm just annoyed that I feel like I can't express interest in learning more of my first fucking language because everyone else in America that wants to learn it is a fucking weeaboo that just wants to watch anime without subtitles or hit on Japanese girls. They've attached a negative stigma to Japanese language and culture in America to the point where some people think the words "Japanese" and "weeb speak" are interchangeable. Honestly the only non-Japanese person that is interested in Japanese language & culture for valid reasons I know is my dad, who is just interested in languages in general and just happened to marry a Japanese lady, does not watch any anime, and doesn't talk in the "JapaEnglish" that weeaboos often do.

    You know how I said I'm trying to expand my Japanese vocabulary? So yeah, I browse /r/LearnJapanese. But a lot of the people that post there I can tell are weeaboos and have the same "know-it-all" attitude and they all get in arguments with each other, and whenever someone makes a "why do you want to learn Japanese" topic there's always responses of "so I can watch dem animes" or "so I can hit on girls" and random bouts of "desu nee" and "waifu" thrown in. It's really cringeworthy and fucking annoying. It kind of makes me sad that it seems no one else wants to learn Japanese for the same reasons I do, or at least for a reason that's not "anime without subtitles" or "hitting on girls". So yeah weeaboos, thanks for stigmatizing my first language and my mother's culture in the country I currently live in (United States).

    /end rant, sorry if I offended anyone here as I understand this subreddit has a lot of former weeaboo's/current weeaboo's lurking. This is simply the opinion of a half-Japanese guy who was born in Japan, went to pre-school/kindergarten there, and has lived in America since 1st grade.

    tldr; weeaboos disgust me

    EDIT: minor clarification
     
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  19. taviow Magister

    taviow
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    I love Durlag's Tower. We haven't had a dungeon of that caliber in any of the modern oldschool RPGs yet.

    Also, Watcher's Keep was a bit disappointing in comparison.

    That was very meaningful but are you sure this is the thread you were aiming at?
     
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  20. Twizman Educated

    Twizman
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    62
    Love your work aweigh, is this post in the wrong thread though?

    Lyric Suite, you should check out BG1 with Sword Coast Stratagems. Amazing achievement from the Gibberlings III modders.
     
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  21. laclongquan Arcane

    laclongquan
    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Location:
    Searching for my kidnapped sister
    Nah, Codex it's the place for people to rant~

    Annnnnyway, I plan to learn Japanese just so I can play Jap games and read some online novels. But never could bother.

    Mang, they got great games in PC... in Japanese. It's like they personally troll me and others.

    ROTK10 in PS2 is great. ROTK10 in PC with Jap/Chi/Kor languages is even greater.
     
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  22. Bladeract It's Neckbeard Shitlord. Again. Dumbfuck

    Unwanted
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    Messages:
    239
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    1. I didn't even notice this kind of crap and really who cares? It is good enough in BG II. Nothing special in either one.

    2. Story was fine in both games, but in the first game almost totally irrelevant. It is basically side quests and random exploration: the game. If BG has anything on BG II it was that it was not so linear and bogged down in story, but OTOH BG II had a well developed villain so it's kind of a wash.

    3. Torment was the start of all this crap, but it was fine in BG II because like torment it was not very intrusive or retarded, or even serious.

    4. That's just how it is with higher level DnD. The loot progression in II was fine though. In BG 1 your best bet is to just use a sling or bow and run around a lot. This negates the point of any loot anyway.

    5. BG II does have better combat. It as much better encounter design instead of 100 orcs then 100 kobolds then 100 wolves over and over. It's also not totally broken and exploitable like BG 1. The melee is pure crap in IE games so thankfully they focused more on mages in BG II and special encounters.
     
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  23. Bladeract It's Neckbeard Shitlord. Again. Dumbfuck

    Unwanted
    Joined:
    May 19, 2018
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  24. DemonKing Arcane

    DemonKing
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,349
    Agreed - both good games but BG1 was better.

    Adding in spell protections and counters was just an extra unnecessary layer added to the combat in BG2 that added nothing. Much more save scrumming was required with a lot of the battles in BG2 and then you had stuff like the Beholder Cave which would be virtually impossible played normally but a cakewalk if you had the Shield of Balduran (an early piece of DLC for Collector's Edition holders that deflects beholder rays). Also it sowed the seeds of Bioware's destruction by turning NPC companions from fun sprouters of catchphrases to romance simulators. I also found Sarevok a better villain than Irenicus because he had a clear objective ("There can be only one!") that made sense and tied in well with the game's storyline/player character.

    BG2 was a loveletter to AD&D though. There's very little iconic stuff (spells, monsters, magic items) that they didn't manage to squeeze in.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
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  25. onemananadhisdroid Augur

    onemananadhisdroid
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2007
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    Location:
    Germoney
    Baldur's Gate is one of those projects were it was arguably of benefit that a healthy portion of its makers hadn't yet shipped a game before become indoctrinated with more traditional means of game design (e.g. make sure that the player has stuff to do, kill and discover around every second pixel). BG2 is a D&D theme park -- BG1 is a world to explore. Personal preference for one over the other may differ. What cannot be denied is the huge difference at the core of each game.

    Taken from The CRPG book, and quoted for truth.

     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
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