Preview Choices in Oblivion

[Rendelius]

Civilised does not equal worthwhile.

Uncivilized NEVER equals wothwhile, though

 

[Proweler]

Oh, I know they did it for a reason. I don't think they are incompetent and clueless. Yet, that reason, which is appealing to the dumb console crowd, deserves much more criticism than incompetence.

Perhaps. Yet the only reason they can grow is by catering to people who lack time to go real deep, either on PC or console. There is only so much you can blame on lacking intelligence; most people just want good entertainment. That would be a more fundamental discussion though.

If there are no real lasting advantages to being faction leader then the penalties should be equal to that. After all the reason why you decide to take any action is; because the consequences you face come whit an equally proportioned reward.

 

[Twinfalls]

@Rendelius:

Can you at least respond to this example:
----
Two factions: Fighters and Assassins. 2 quests involving one NPCs. The Fighters are hired to protect him, the Assassins are hired to kill him. If you are a member of both guilds, you are asked to assist both in protection and assassination. Clearly you can't do both. One faction is happy, one faction is pissed. You go up in one faction, you go on a shit list in another. Simple as that. Now tell me it's difficult to implement and it would take a lot of precious resources.
---
Now. We know you can join and rise to the top of all guilds, at all times. So we know that there will never be a quest like the above. Can you not acknowledge that this does not bode well for the gameplay? Isn't it reasonable to expect that some fighter's guild's duties will be to protect someone from assassins? How could you possibly do that when you are one of the assassins, or even their chief?

And extend this to the many, many other types of situations we know can not be in the game (ie conflicts between guilds with actual consequences). Now do you understand the concern from Daggerfall fans that this kind of gameplay is being lost, just to cater to the Sol Invictus/Rulions of the world who get "annoyed cuz I had to make a decision"?

 

[Radiant Immershun]

VeeDee only knows how to argue by calling people retards. He is civilized in a manner of speaking -- like the kid who scores a passing grade in his exams in a class full of slow learners in high school. Yay Veedee is so SMART

 

[Anoik]

That's not what is being criticised, and most of all: to emphasize your point of view, you greatly try to put truth in the shades:

If you really believe that your actions will have no consequences in Oblivion because you can join all for guilds if you will, then I have to assume you know nothing about the game. Most of your actions will have consequences, and it is safe to say you know that - you just do not mention it because it would make your general critizism invalid.

Fact is: In oblivion you can join all four guilds. If you roleplay, you most probably won't do it. If you want to join all four guilds because you want to do all of the quests in one game, you can do it.

Not only can you join all guilds, they have said that you can be the leader of all the guilds. How can you be the leader of all the facions if there is consequences?. Because there is no conflict between guilds. If you have conflicts between guilds, if you have to take decissions, if your choices affect your standing with the guilds, then, you can't be the leader of all guilds.

The problems is not that you can join all guilds, i have no problem (to some extend) with that. My problem, what i don't like, is that my choices will not have effects in the game.

 

[Anoik]

Oh, I know they did it for a reason. I don't think they are incompetent and clueless. Yet, that reason, which is appealing to the dumb console crowd, deserves much more criticism than incompetence.

Perhaps. Yet the only reason they can grow is by catering to people who lack time to go real deep, either on PC or console. There is only so much you can blame on lacking intelligence; most people just want good entertainment. That would be a more fundamental discussion though.

If you have lack of time why will you do all the quests of all the guilds?. If they implement choices and consequences in the quests, consequences that affect your standing with the guilds, then, maybe, you will not have to do more quests, because you are not wellcome in one guild.

 

[crpgnut]

The choices and the consequences of your choices, plus a well designed classes, is what make me play a game again when i have finished it. If you can join all guilds, if you can do all quests with each character, every time, because you want, why will you play a game again?.

Hi Anoik, I want to throw my opinion in on this question. TES games are all huge. I don't join every guild or do every quest the first time through for this very reason. I can have a blast with Daggerfall/Morrowind/Oblivion? by just joining one guild. I can play a 50 hour game, easily, by just focusing on one of the quest lines and then doing some random exploration of dungeons and some of the miscellaneous quests.

I could also play the other way. Join all 4 guilds, complete the main quest, clear every single dungeon, etc and have just one 500 hour game. The choice is up to you. For me, picking one or two guilds per character allows me to enjoy the game several times, rather than just once. If you roleplay your character it makes a lot of sense.

I can play a Nord fighter, who just joins the fighter's guild and then picks skills, quests, weapons, etc that would interest a barbarian fighter type. This guy might do a few thief type quests if weapons and armor are the reward for completion. I'll get 50 hours out of this guy probably.

Next game I'm an alchemist/mage who explores most of the land but doesn't really want to involve himself in fighting monsters except as needed for potion ingredients. This guy would join the mages guild and might dabble in a little thievery depending on whether I want him to be moral or immoral. If immoral he might murder and innocent and end up doing a few Dark Brotherhood quests, if they're mage related. 100 hours out of this build because this guy will uncover the map.

3rd game I play an assassin who hates magic and all it stands for. He'll attempt to become guildmaster of the DB and perhaps the Thieves guild too. He'll do any quest that hurts the mages guild and will love dungeon exploration. This will be my character that might become a vampire.

This is what I think Rendelius was talking about. I'm mature enough to not play like little Timmy. I don't hate Bethesda because they catered to Timmy because they allowed me to play my way too.

 

[Rendelius]

@Rendelius:

Can you at least respond to this example:
----
Two factions: Fighters and Assassins. 2 quests involving one NPCs. The Fighters are hired to protect him, the Assassins are hired to kill him. If you are a member of both guilds, you are asked to assist both in protection and assassination. Clearly you can't do both. One faction is happy, one faction is pissed. You go up in one faction, you go on a shit list in another. Simple as that. Now tell me it's difficult to implement and it would take a lot of precious resources.
---
Now. We know you can join and rise to the top of all guilds, at all times. So we know that there will never be a quest like the above. Can you not acknowledge that this does not bode well for the gameplay? Isn't it reasonable to expect that some fighter's guild's duties will be to protect someone from assassins? How could you possibly do that when you are one of the assassins, or even their chief?

And extend this to the many, many other types of situations we know can not be in the game (ie conflicts between guilds with actual consequences). Now do you understand the concern from Daggerfall fans that this kind of gameplay is being lost, just to cater to the Sol Invictus/Rulions of the world who get "annoyed cuz I had to make a decision"?

certainly I can respond , in fact I have already. Look at my postings.

I said that you could have a variable that allows you to join one guild or two, and blocks you from joining others. They don't have that now. The reason why they don't have it is unknown to me. You can still have it for yourself, though.

What I don't get is why you can't have an argument here without suspecting that something has been done to satisfy some retarded folks that are not willing to make a decision. Vault dweller talked about "dumb console kids", you talk about indecisive people. Buying a console doesnt make you dumb, and you don't have to be dumb to buy one. This "we are better" attitude is really, excuse me, childish.

And about the concern of Daggerfall fans: I am one of them, a big one, I consider this to be a great game despite all those glitches. I do not share your concerns, really.

Let me put it this way: You fear that Oblivion will not be reacting to what you do in the way you expect it. I think that, when I count together all what I have heard about this game, it will be the most responsive and reactive game world I have been in.

Let's see how we both react when we play the game

 

[Fresh]

Not only can you join all guilds, they have said that you can be the leader of all the guilds.

Question: Has it been made clear if you can be the leader of all guilds simultaneously? Can you be teh Ubar-guildmastah?

 

[Twinfalls]

Yes, it has. You can.

 

[Rendelius]

That's not what is being criticised, and most of all: to emphasize your point of view, you greatly try to put truth in the shades:

If you really believe that your actions will have no consequences in Oblivion because you can join all for guilds if you will, then I have to assume you know nothing about the game. Most of your actions will have consequences, and it is safe to say you know that - you just do not mention it because it would make your general critizism invalid.

Fact is: In oblivion you can join all four guilds. If you roleplay, you most probably won't do it. If you want to join all four guilds because you want to do all of the quests in one game, you can do it.

Not only can you join all guilds, they have said that you can be the leader of all the guilds. How can you be the leader of all the facions if there is consequences?. Because there is no conflict between guilds. If you have conflicts between guilds, if you have to take decissions, if your choices affect your standing with the guilds, then, you can't be the leader of all guilds.

The problems is not that you can join all guilds, i have no problem (to some extend) with that. My problem, what i don't like, is that my choices will not have effects in the game.

I get your point, yes. However, this concern is very minor to me since I would complain about effects that don't take place because I don't spark them by the way I play. So for me, this openness of all four guilds, because it is not used by me, is perfectly ok.

 

[Rendelius]

Yes, it has. You can.

Yes, that's true. But the question is: Will you? I won't

 

[Vault Dweller]

@vaultdweller:

In 43 years being on this planet I have learned that there are people not worth discussing with, since they seem to have some allergy to a civilized exchange of arguments. You are most certainly one of them, and I should have believed others who said so. Best luck from here onwards.

:IGNORER:

OMG! Teh others were right! Stop the drama, Rendie, and no need to mention your old age to impress teens. I'm 35. Nice to meet you.

I don't have any allergies to civilized discussions, but I dislike cop-outs and people who ignore the arguments of the other side and continue repeating what doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you are really 43, stop being such a drama queen, and argue your point. Maybe that would score you more respect and return the discussion into the "civilized track".

Cheers.

 

[Balor]

Well, hmm, Section is right, btw:
Being able to join all guilds and became guildmaster in all of them does not mean that those guilds will never clash.

In fact, they may... but you'll be presented with ways to 'smooth the edges' and still be liked by everyone... perhaps, it will take a lot of skill (maxed speechcraft ) , effort (more tasks to complete), etc.

Of course, will all those dumb-downs in mind, one may question the truth of such statement... but it's not physically impossible, and is logical, right?

Like, I am a secret murderer, but is keeping it hidden, and want to have powers of magick (and weapon arts, just in case) at my disposal.

In fact, it can lead to many interesting possibilities like someone discovering it and beginning to blackmail you; being sent to investigate your own murder (I mean, murder committed by you ) - and shift the blame on some poor, completely unrelated sod, etc.
Possible? Yes. Interesting? Absolutely!

However, since we have Bethesda in mind, I'm 99% sure that it's VD, not Section (or me) who's right.

The point still stands, though.

 

[Twinfalls]

Being able to join all guilds and became guildmaster in all of them does not mean that those guilds will never clash.

In fact, they may... but you'll be presented with ways to 'smooth the edges' and still be liked by everyone...

No. They will not conflict. Kathode has said in an interview that they deliberately designed the guild quest lines to be 'independent'.

 

[Anoik]

The choices and the consequences of your choices, plus a well designed classes, is what make me play a game again when i have finished it. If you can join all guilds, if you can do all quests with each character, every time, because you want, why will you play a game again?.

Hi Anoik, I want to throw my opinion in on this question. TES games are all huge. I don't join every guild or do every quest the first time through for this very reason. I can have a blast with Daggerfall/Morrowind/Oblivion? by just joining one guild. I can play a 50 hour game, easily, by just focusing on one of the quest lines and then doing some random exploration of dungeons and some of the miscellaneous quests.

I could also play the other way. Join all 4 guilds, complete the main quest, clear every single dungeon, etc and have just one 500 hour game. The choice is up to you. For me, picking one or two guilds per character allows me to enjoy the game several times, rather than just once. If you roleplay your character it makes a lot of sense.

I can play a Nord fighter, who just joins the fighter's guild and then picks skills, quests, weapons, etc that would interest a barbarian fighter type. This guy might do a few thief type quests if weapons and armor are the reward for completion. I'll get 50 hours out of this guy probably.

Next game I'm an alchemist/mage who explores most of the land but doesn't really want to involve himself in fighting monsters except as needed for potion ingredients. This guy would join the mages guild and might dabble in a little thievery depending on whether I want him to be moral or immoral. If immoral he might murder and innocent and end up doing a few Dark Brotherhood quests, if they're mage related. 100 hours out of this build because this guy will uncover the map.

3rd game I play an assassin who hates magic and all it stands for. He'll attempt to become guildmaster of the DB and perhaps the Thieves guild too. He'll do any quest that hurts the mages guild and will love dungeon exploration. This will be my character that might become a vampire.

This is what I think Rendelius was talking about. I'm mature enough to not play like little Timmy. I don't hate Bethesda because they catered to Timmy because they allowed me to play my way too.

So true. That is how i have played Morrowind. Why? because the games was not designed to take in account my choices and my decissions, because my choices and acts don't have consequences in the gameplay. I know that you can play that way, but i like more the choices + consequences = good gameplay than the choices + no consequences = poor gameplay.

If you can join all guilds, and you join all guilds, it is your fault, but is nice, and it add more replay value, if the consquences of your choices affect the gameplay and the way you can play the game, because if you can't finish the quests line of the Dark Brotherhood because you make a choice in the Fighters guild quests line, the next time you make a new char, you can try to help the Dark Brotherhodd and not the Fighters guild and know how it will change the gameplay.

 

[Rendelius]

Being able to join all guilds and became guildmaster in all of them does not mean that those guilds will never clash.

In fact, they may... but you'll be presented with ways to 'smooth the edges' and still be liked by everyone...

No. They will not conflict. Kathode has said in an interview that they deliberately designed the guild quest lines to be 'independent'.

What we could discuss as well is if they maybe wrapped this into some lore (like all guilds working together because the threat of the gates of Oblivion). Could well be, don't you think?

 

[crpgnut]

Yes, it has. You can.

Where? I've been looking for a Dev saying this for a couple of hours now. I've read you can become the head of all four guilds. I have not read that you can be the head of all four simultaneously, but it MAY be true. Do you have that quote handy, Twinfalls?

 

[Kraszu]

You think that Thief guild would not cnow who is the guildmaster of fighters guild? It could only happen if you got some "pupett" that is doing everything you say and is oficially guildmaster. But that would be complicated, and i don't think that bethseda care enought to make that happen.

 

[Twinfalls]

Being able to join all guilds and became guildmaster in all of them does not mean that those guilds will never clash.

In fact, they may... but you'll be presented with ways to 'smooth the edges' and still be liked by everyone...

No. They will not conflict. Kathode has said in an interview that they deliberately designed the guild quest lines to be 'independent'.

What we could discuss as well is if they maybe wrapped this into some lore (like all guilds working together because the threat of the gates of Oblivion). Could well be, don't you think?

You'd want the Death-Mother worshipping Assassins to bandy up with the Thieves, the Mages and the Fighters?

Tally-ho and pip-pip eh wot, chaps!

 

[Anoik]

Being able to join all guilds and became guildmaster in all of them does not mean that those guilds will never clash.

In fact, they may... but you'll be presented with ways to 'smooth the edges' and still be liked by everyone...

No. They will not conflict. Kathode has said in an interview that they deliberately designed the guild quest lines to be 'independent'.

What we could discuss as well is if they maybe wrapped this into some lore (like all guilds working together because the threat of the gates of Oblivion). Could well be, don't you think?

Ok, now

 

[Rendelius]

Being able to join all guilds and became guildmaster in all of them does not mean that those guilds will never clash.

In fact, they may... but you'll be presented with ways to 'smooth the edges' and still be liked by everyone...

No. They will not conflict. Kathode has said in an interview that they deliberately designed the guild quest lines to be 'independent'.

What we could discuss as well is if they maybe wrapped this into some lore (like all guilds working together because the threat of the gates of Oblivion). Could well be, don't you think?

You'd want the Death-Mother worshipping Assassins to bandy up with the Thieves, the Mages and the Fighters?

Tally-ho and pip-pip eh wot, chaps!

Sort of, why not. An example from the history of my country: Back in 38, communists, catholics, nationalists and even the few royalists all united to fight the nazi regime. They didn't love each other, but worked together.

 

[Psilon]

We've had this discussion recently in another thread.

So, in other words, you're the audience that #conduct was implemented for in Nethack. Problem is, there's no #conduct screen in Elder Scrolls games. There are no other players to stand around and compliment you on the armor you're wearing. Given the fully-voiced dialogue, I'd be surprised if NPCs even reference the player's gender after the initial greeting.

In other words, you're deliberately refusing a large chunk of the available gameplay, loot, and XP for... what, exactly? The off chance that if the main plot is tolerable and you decide to replay, you'll have some new side quests for the next character? I'd rather implement that with a real branching storyline and multiple-ended quests, so that guild choices give me an incentive to make different choices next time. Heck, I'd even support a per-game random reward table so you don't always get the same loot for each quest.

Of course, there's still the "multiclassing problem." Elder Scrolls games have historically not looked kindly on characters without a good mix of magic and melee. Daggerfall made life very tricky for mages early on, since they can't afford spells and have to sprint out of Privateer's Hold. Later on, the dungeons became impossible without large amounts of Levitate, Water Breathing, and Slowfall ability. (Also Mark and Recall for the masochists.) Morrowind, well, didn't like the pure mage at all, and relied on the alchemy crutch to keep pure fighters alive. So why not join both the Fighters and Mages? You've probably got the prerequisites.

 

[Micmu]

Been thinking... A new feature of the Construction Set is an ability to switch off/on a whole quest with a mouse click. Probably you can group journal entries, variables, scripts and other objects.
Nice for quest designers but this feature also allows you to design isolated quests by default. Just popping in additional quests and switching off the untested/unfinished ones.
Let's hope they didn't abuse this modular system to the maximum. (Morrowind FedEx horror repeated.)

 

[Rendelius]

Been thinking... A new feature of the Construction Set is an ability to switch off/on a whole quest with a mouse click. You can group journal entries, variables, scripts and other objects.
Nice for quest designers but this feature also allows you to design isolated quests by default. Just popping in additional quests and switching off the untested/unfinished ones.
Let's hope they didn't abuse this modular system to the maximum. (Morrowind FedEx horror repeated.)

They say that quests will be more elaborated than in Morrowind (which, btw, doesn't mean much *g*). We'll see if this is true.