Preview Choices in Oblivion

[Claw]

That's true and sad. I remember how fun it was when I discovered a witch coven in Daggerfall not knowing that anything like that existed at all...

Even better, imagine a preview of DSA: Star Trail telling you what the game isn't about.

The point is having fun. Immersion & make-believe is part of the fun. We all make all sorts of choices that has no real effect/response ingame.

Half Life 2: RPGs for a new generation.

 

[geminito]

So... uh... only four guilds now? Who cares about the whole diamond food thing? It makes a very minor impact on the fun of the game.

Having only 4 guilds to choose from? That's a big change in Elder Scrolls... its going 2 b teh disapointment???11

4?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yep. From 30+ in Daggerfall to 4 in Oblivion. I'm sure they will be spectacular though with nice graphics and awesome effectz. Undead patrolling the Dark Brotherhood is a very nice touch. I hope something cool patrols the Thieves Guild.

Edit: You do know that there are only 4 weapon skills now? 4 seems to be the magic number.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

That's one of the thing that upset me about Morrowind was the lessened number of guilds.

The thing about being able to join all guilds that pisses me off is, with this new AI system they are talking about, shouldn't you be able to have guild rivalries?

The thieves guild in any setting I've ever come across has a tendency to step on the toes of all the other guilds at one point or another.

Fighters guild and mages guild tend to clash from time to time.

So, if you are able to join all guilds, that leads me to believe that they are just generic quest generators that have no real impact on the gameworld.

I would love to be able to join the fighters guild, do a quest for them that involves crossing the thieves guild, and find myself a marked person. That would fucking rock. Or cross the mages guild and end up with a curse that you have to get rid of. Or worse.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I am serious. that would be awesome. Add a whole level of spying to the game. You could find dirt in the form of letters, or maybe stumble upon a mistress, or else maybe find nothing...or following someone around long enough in secret might yield other secrets...the location of their stash, a secret identity, etc.

I agree. A hundred percent. I was just saying it would make the thieves guild way more interesting. And apparently this is something that could totally be done with the AI system, if it's as good as they're touting it to be.

 

[Drakron]

Well I agree, it reminds me of Daggerfall Guild that WERE random quest generators.

Morrowind tried inter-fraction conflicts, this does not and why?

Because they dont want little Timmy that sould not be even playing this game if his parents did their job be confused over why he cannot be grandmaster of everything.

Personaly I rather they made simply quests to climb up some ranks and then you are only going to advance by pissing off the other fractions ... you want to climb in the thief guild, you piss off the mage and fighter guilds in the process.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Somebody should do a mod for Daggerfall that adds this new AI system. Oh my god... I would love them long time.

 

[Twinfalls]

I'm a bit stunned that a person with as much experience in playing RPGs as Rendelius can buy into that 'it's up to YOU' crap to excuse poor design. Rendelius - it's not a choice if you can do it all, it's a meaningless free-for-all. Real choices - meaning consequences in the game-world, are essential to a role playing game, and its frankly bizarre that you think the opposite - that they don't matter one whit.

 

[Psilon]

A Daggerfall-themed roguelike would be pretty sweet. Randomly generated towns and dungeons, without the hardcoded quests of an ADOM or Angband.

Of course, it's harder to justify the dress-up games and clothing stores when the most you can do artwise is 32x32 icons.

 

[Twinfalls]

How is it immersive if you become the MOST POWERFUL MAGE IN THE WORLD, and in fact their leader and representative in all the land, and then you go over to the thieve's guild and they say "Hey, squirt! You is a promising young lad. Go steal this shirt in verbobonc for me!" now go steal this potion from the mage's guild!

"Hi there. I'm Bloarcus the Hundred Fingered and Merciless. I happen to be Leader of the Assassins in this region. We have Undead patrols you know. I have personally taken the lives of 1343 innocents. And I'm also the Chief Thief. Hey - look, I've got your wallet" (waves it around)

"Give that back to me! What do you want?"

"Well, I just happened to pass your erstwhile Gentleman Mages Club, and couldn't help but reflect that it might do my standing with the ladies quite some good were I to be a fellow of you good Magical sorts. Oh - did I mention that I also happen to the be top Gladiator in the land, the King of the Arena?"

"We've heard of you - who the Oblvion hasn't? You are the most wicked, the most despicable agent of Evil that has ever stalked the land. Our Mages Guild is a force for GOOD, d'ya hear?"

"Sure, bub. So, can I join then?"

"Yes. Here is your first task. Fetch me some mushrooms"

RADIANT!!!

 

[Rendelius]

Would you like this awesome paper hat? It says WIZZARD LORD on one side.

I love it when arguments are replaced by ignorance and half funny jokes. Acknowledging that your point of view might be not the only one in the universe isn't weakness at all, btw.

If you can't handle a thing called "imagination", I wonder what you are doing with roleplaying games. So, to go back to my first posting in this thread: I'll leave your party again. Funny to see that nothing has changed in the last few years

 

[Twinfalls]

How is it immersive if you become the MOST POWERFUL MAGE IN THE WORLD, and in fact their leader and representative in all the land, and then you go over to the thieve's guild and they say "Hey, squirt! You is a promising young lad. Go steal this shirt in verbobonc for me!" now go steal this potion from the mage's guild!

 

[Stark]

If you can't handle a thing called "imagination", I wonder what you are doing with roleplaying games. So, to go back to my first posting in this thread: I'll leave your party again. Funny to see that nothing has changed in the last few years

Ii too was surprised with the way you made excuses for the design choices made in Oblivion. Considering you're from rpgdot staff, i would have expected more from you.

it's silly to "pretend" scenarios when the gameworld is not reacting to it. using your logic, it's perfectly ok for you to purchase a blank CD from Bethsoft and stare at blank screen and let your imagination to take care of the rest? I mean, your imagination is so powerful and all.

Considering even MW imposes some limitation within the rising of rank in various guilds it is indeed a step backward for Oblivion. making excuses such as "oh i can always choose not to join all the guilds" is side stepping the fact that the once feature rich series is going downhill.

 

[Stark]

A Daggerfall-themed roguelike would be pretty sweet. Randomly generated towns and dungeons, without the hardcoded quests of an ADOM or Angband.

Darklands fit the bit about randomly generated towns and dungeons.

 

[kris]

Would you like this awesome paper hat? It says WIZZARD LORD on one side.

I love it when arguments are replaced by ignorance and half funny jokes. Acknowledging that your point of view might be not the only one in the universe isn't weakness at all, btw.

If you can't handle a thing called "imagination", I wonder what you are doing with roleplaying games. So, to go back to my first posting in this thread: I'll leave your party again. Funny to see that nothing has changed in the last few years

You mean like yourself. this is not about imagination, imagination is when you put in pictures and ideas of how things is that haven't been fleshed out. Like picturing the castle some describes or filling out details about a character you met.

when it comes to something like being able to join polar opposite guilds it is only your imagination as long as you don't know that you can join several. When you know that information you play a game of "make believe" instead, a make believe that the gameworld works different than it really do.

Having consequences for your actions is a ground staple of RPGs.
...

Innocent? I like when someone is described as innocent, who are the innocent and what are they innocent of?

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

A Daggerfall-themed roguelike would be pretty sweet. Randomly generated towns and dungeons, without the hardcoded quests of an ADOM or Angband.

Darklands fit the bit about randomly generated towns and dungeons.

And one of the best RPGs ever to boot! :D

 

[Proweler]

The first two are a force for good, while thieves are less morally stringent, but still honourable.

Like Morrowinds Guild of mages was all goody woody....

 

[Rendelius]

Ii too was surprised with the way you made excuses for the design choices made in Oblivion. Considering you're from rpgdot staff, i would have expected more from you.

it's silly to "pretend" scenarios when the gameworld is not reacting to it. using your logic, it's perfectly ok for you to purchase a blank CD from Bethsoft and stare at blank screen and let your imagination to take care of the rest? I mean, your imagination is so powerful and all.

Considering even MW imposes some limitation within the rising of rank in various guilds it is indeed a step backward for Oblivion. making excuses such as "oh i can always choose not to join all the guilds" is side stepping the fact that the once feature rich series is going downhill.

Well, the fact that I am from the RPGDot staff (actually, I founded this site) doesn't make my opinion more noteworthy, really - don't you agree?

The real point that I want to make is: acting within a role without the game forcing you to do so can't be a target of jokes (like the immature one from Vault Dweller) if you start to think a little. Go back to Morrowind: Did you have to choose the "^" command because it was there? No. Do you have to join all guilds because you could? No. Did yo have to kill Dagoth Ur in 7 minutes because you could? No.

I would rather complain about things that aren't possible in the game, not about possibilities that you don't like. Consider joining all guilds as an exploit - maybe then you will understand me?

Now, my second point: one has to accept that there are certain limitations to what you can put into a game wnd what not. This is not because of the lazyness or the the lacking good will of the devs and designers, it's due to very real restrictions. As I said, you have only so and so much time and money to do the game, and you have to prioitize things according to this. It's soooo easy to sit on a forum and complain about missing things and design decisions, but it's another thing to keep a game development within the limits that will be fitting. There are a LOT of design decisions in Oblivion I do not like, but I think I understand why they have been made. There were many things in Morrowind that could have been done better, yes, but the package as a whole was entertaining for me (believe it or not, I am still playing a heavily modded version of Morrowind).

I hope I was able to show why I think what I think

Rend

 

[Twinfalls]

Well, the fact that I am from the RPGDot staff (actually, I founded this site) doesn't make my opinion more noteworthy, really - don't you agree?

He's not saying that it is. Rather, he simply expected a different response from you given your previous role.

I would rather complain about things that aren't possible in the game, not about possibilities that you don't like.

That is what is being criticised. Things that are not possible. You cannot make meaningful, serious decisions - ie decisions with consequences. You cannot experience a game-world in which your actions actually count for something. These ought to be essential elements of an RPG, especially in this day and age.

This is not because of the lazyness or the the lacking good will of the devs and designers, it's due to very real restrictions. As I said, you have only so and so much time and money to do the game

It was not a lack of resources. They've got soil erosion and Patrick Stewart, after all. It's a clear design decision. As Drakron put it, 'Little Timmy (who shouldn't be playing the game if his parents knew better) will get upset if he cannot become grandmaster of everything'.

As for that 'you're not making the game therefore you cannot criticise it' line, well - It's soooo easy for you to sit on a forum and say 'you are not allowed to criticise the design of the game', isn't it Rendelius?

 

[Shagnak]

[drunken wanker mode on]
Game. Set. Match. Bye.
You are prefectly right, Twinfalls.

[sorry attempt to act sober mode on]
Really, Rendelius, like a previous poster intimated, your attitude would excuse all sorts of lax design. Having developers relax their "world building" standards because, hey, we can play it like we want to, is in my opinion total crap.

Do you really want to see vapid vanilla flavoured rpg worlds where the player has to curb his natural tendency to test the limits of said world in order to be able to enjoy it (and due to this, he/she won't); or would you like to see design decisions made that test the player and reinforce the "reality" of the designed world.

It has little to do with implementation time, and everything to do with design decisions made at the requirements analysis/design part of the project.

Some of the omitted things, for example faction/guild cross-influence, are not hard to implement in the more simple cases; possibly enough to even satisfy rabid rpg fans like ourselves. They are not big asks.
The cynical amongst us have every right to assume that the design decisons have been made to suit those that play "for teh win", rather than play for the immersive experience. And no, immersiveness is not supplied by Mr Stewart and flash looking soil erosion. (Sorry, mandatory inclusion)

Edit
BTW, yes, you being rpgdot staff, Rendelius, does mean we are surprised. We have recently lamented the reviewing standard of the 'dot, and some of us even suggested that "back in Rendelius' day" things would have been better.
It is a surprise that you so easily support some of the "dumbing down".

 

[Sol Invictus]

Some people here would be better off playing RCT3 in Sandbox mode than playing RPGs or any other game the way it's meant to be played, because obviously nothing short of 'total freedom of choice' is going to please them.

 

[Fresh]

Well, the fact that I am from the RPGDot staff (actually, I founded this site) doesn't make my opinion more noteworthy, really - don't you agree?

The real point that I want to make is: acting within a role without the game forcing you to do so can't be a target of jokes (like the immature one from Vault Dweller) if you start to think a little. Go back to Morrowind: Did you have to choose the "^" command because it was there? No. Do you have to join all guilds because you could? No. Did yo have to kill Dagoth Ur in 7 minutes because you could? No.

I would rather complain about things that aren't possible in the game, not about possibilities that you don't like. Consider joining all guilds as an exploit - maybe then you will understand me?

Now, my second point: one has to accept that there are certain limitations to what you can put into a game wnd what not. This is not because of the lazyness or the the lacking good will of the devs and designers, it's due to very real restrictions. As I said, you have only so and so much time and money to do the game, and you have to prioitize things according to this. It's soooo easy to sit on a forum and complain about missing things and design decisions, but it's another thing to keep a game development within the limits that will be fitting. There are a LOT of design decisions in Oblivion I do not like, but I think I understand why they have been made. There were many things in Morrowind that could have been done better, yes, but the package as a whole was entertaining for me (believe it or not, I am still playing a heavily modded version of Morrowind).

I hope I was able to show why I think what I think

Rend

This is the way I see it as well.

Too bad some of you guys don't enjoy acting within a role. Are you also unwilling/incapable of _not_ powerplaying and _not_ using every exploit available?

There's nothing wrong with make believe if that makes it more fun to play. Collecting rocks or whatnot in FO have no ingame meaning (?) but people still do it - and enjoy doing it for whatever reason.

 

[bryce777]

How is it immersive if you become the MOST POWERFUL MAGE IN THE WORLD, and in fact their leader and representative in all the land, and then you go over to the thieve's guild and they say "Hey, squirt! You is a promising young lad. Go steal this shirt in verbobonc for me!" now go steal this potion from the mage's guild!

"Hi there. I'm Bloarcus the Hundred Fingered and Merciless. I happen to be Leader of the Assassins in this region. We have Undead patrols you know. I have personally taken the lives of 1343 innocents. And I'm also the Chief Thief. Hey - look, I've got your wallet" (waves it around)

"Give that back to me! What do you want?"

"Well, I just happened to pass your erstwhile Gentleman Mages Club, and couldn't help but reflect that it might do my standing with the ladies quite some good were I to be a fellow of you good Magical sorts. Oh - did I mention that I also happen to the be top Gladiator in the land, the King of the Arena?"

"We've heard of you - who the Oblvion hasn't? You are the most wicked, the most despicable agent of Evil that has ever stalked the land. Our Mages Guild is a force for GOOD, d'ya hear?"

"Sure, bub. So, can I join then?"

"Yes. Here is your first task. Fetch me some mushrooms"

RADIANT!!!

ROFL!

Now you need to protect the guild from those evil assassins. No disrespect intended, sir!

 

[bryce777]

I hope they also have breadmaking like in ultima 7.

I WILL BE THE BEST BAKER IN THE WORLD. AND MAGE. AND BLACKSMITH. AND ASSASSIN. BUT NOT A WEREWOLF APPARENTLY

 

[Anoik]

One thing is use imagination when you have a lack of good desing in the desing and implementation of the guilds in the game, and other, is put some limits to your self, making choices and joining only one or two guilds that, maybe, in your imagination, will not compete in a well designed game. But in that scenario, you will miss a good design of quests, you will miss the real choices, you will miss the consequences of your choices and your acts. Imagination don't help a lot there.

The choices and the consequences of your choices, plus a well designed classes, is what make me play a game again when i have finished it. If you can join all guilds, if you can do all quests with each character, every time, because you want, why will you play a game again?.