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Preview Choices in Oblivion

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Re: Ahem,

Anoik said:
He, if you disarm your opponent, his weapon will be in the floor, near him. Why he will go buy one to a shop if he can take it from the floor?.
It's not really the point here. The point is buying a weapon is a useless feature, but let's have some fun with your example:

What if you quickly grab his weapon from the floor and hold it showing that you have two? Would he ask you to sell it to him in a totally emergent manner and offer to give you something precious in return? :lol:
 

Rendelius

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 25, 2003
Messages
164
Vault Dweller said:
How do I know? If there was something, you wouldn't be able to join and become a leader of all 4, because someone would be really pissed off, and some things you do for one guild would have affected another. Fortunately, the guilds quests are not overlapping, so nobody has to choose anything - you can have it ALL!!!!

You can, but you don't have to. Your decision. When I am going to roleplay my character in Oblivion, I will certainly make some decisions without the game forcing me to do so.

The effects to the other guilds of being leader of one guild could only be subliminal in the game, I suppose. Standing with the other guild members could go down, yes, but other than that? I think it would be an enormous task to program all that relations into the program, not worth the effort, really (ok, in an ideal world I would wish that they would do that, but not in real life).
 

Anoik

Novice
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
91
Vault Dweller said:
The problem is not whether or not player's will is strong enough to resist playing like a munchkin, the problem is the lack of proper mechanics and relationships between the guilds. The problem is that the game doesn't care that you joined the guild and became its leader. There is no reaction, there are no consequences, there is no effect on the gameworld.

How do I know? If there was something, you wouldn't be able to join and become a leader of all 4, because someone would be really pissed off, and some things you do for one guild would have affected another. Fortunately, the guilds quests are not overlapping, so nobody has to choose anything - you can have it ALL!!!!
Really, i don't like that. I want choices, and i want consequences. If i join one guild, i want some conflicts with the others guilds. I don't like that part in Morrowind, you have only a few choices, and nothing really important. You can be the leader of all the guilds.

Maybe the Dark Brotherhoodwant to kill an npc, but the mages guild want him alive. So, you have to choice if you are in the two guilds. If you kill the npc, how can you be in the Fighters Guild? they have to "invite" you to go away, they don't like you in their guild. I want something like that.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Anoik said:
The npc selling the diamond is only one of the options npcs have. Lets examine the scenario (sp?).

You need the diamond. You have some choices. Are you good? bad?. If you are bad you can steal it, if you are good at that. If you are really bad you can kill him and take the diamond. But if you are good you can try to bribe him, intimide him, you can try to buy the diamond too. But he refuse to sell it (or you are really bad at speechcraft),because it is a gift from his dead mother.

So, you have to try something. Mmmm, lets try to steal all his food, it is more easy than steal the diamond from him. Now, the npc is hungry, he need food, but he has no money.

Ok, he can try to hunt a deer, if he hunt one, he will not sell the diamond. If he can't, he can try to steal food or money, but maybe he is a good npc, so, he will not steal. What can he do? he can sell the diamond, life is a priority, so, he will sell it, not for an apple, not for a piece of meat, he will sell it for money, not for 5 coins, for the real value of the diamond. He is hungry, he is not stupid. Ok, he can sell it to a shopkeeper or to you. But maybe you don't have enoght money. What to do now? kill him? maybe, if you like to kill people, or you can go find money....

So, you can try different ways, some will work, some will not. The "try to steal all his food and then buy the diamond" is not a retarded way. He will be a retarded if he sell the diamond for an apple, not for 1000 coins.
Anoik, you keep missing the point. There is an easy way to make money so he can buy some food by looting some crates or collecting a few herbs. That's what your character is doing anyway, so why should other people be retarded and ignore the most obvious option?
 

bryce777

Erudite
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
4,225
Location
In my country the system operates YOU
Rendelius said:
Vault Dweller said:
How do I know? If there was something, you wouldn't be able to join and become a leader of all 4, because someone would be really pissed off, and some things you do for one guild would have affected another. Fortunately, the guilds quests are not overlapping, so nobody has to choose anything - you can have it ALL!!!!

You can, but you don't have to. Your decision. When I am going to roleplay my character in Oblivion, I will certainly make some decisions without the game forcing me to do so.

The effects to the other guilds of being leader of one guild could only be subliminal in the game, I suppose. Standing with the other guild members could go down, yes, but other than that? I think it would be an enormous task to program all that relations into the program, not worth the effort, really (ok, in an ideal world I would wish that they would do that, but not in real life).

That gameplay is totally in your head.

:roll:

As he said, if nothing you do affects the response of the gameworld, what is the point? You may as well wear a paper hat that says WIZZARD LORD on it and save 50 bucks and 20 hours of your life.
 

Anoik

Novice
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
91
Re: Ahem,

Vault Dweller said:
Anoik said:
He, if you disarm your opponent, his weapon will be in the floor, near him. Why he will go buy one to a shop if he can take it from the floor?.
It's not really the point here. The point is buying a weapon is a useless feature, but let's have some fun with your example:

What if you quickly grab his weapon from the floor and hold it showing that you have two? Would he ask you to sell it to him in a totally emergent manner and offer to give you something precious in return? :lol:
The more obvius choice here is... run away!!. That will be my choice, but i don't know about the npcs. He can run away, he can fight with his hands, he can ask for clemency (we know about that)... but... ok, if he run to a shop to buy a sword... damn, i don't like that. It is retarded lol
 

Rendelius

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 25, 2003
Messages
164
bryce777 said:
Rendelius said:
Vault Dweller said:
How do I know? If there was something, you wouldn't be able to join and become a leader of all 4, because someone would be really pissed off, and some things you do for one guild would have affected another. Fortunately, the guilds quests are not overlapping, so nobody has to choose anything - you can have it ALL!!!!

You can, but you don't have to. Your decision. When I am going to roleplay my character in Oblivion, I will certainly make some decisions without the game forcing me to do so.

The effects to the other guilds of being leader of one guild could only be subliminal in the game, I suppose. Standing with the other guild members could go down, yes, but other than that? I think it would be an enormous task to program all that relations into the program, not worth the effort, really (ok, in an ideal world I would wish that they would do that, but not in real life).

That gameplay is totally in your head.

:roll:

As he said, if nothing you do affects the response of the gameworld, what is the point? You may as well wear a paper hat that says WIZZARD LORD on it and save 50 bucks and 20 hours of your life.

Well, who's talking about NOTHING?

If you believe that, please walk into the imperial city and start slaying townsfolk :)

I prefer to think that not everything will affect the response of the gameworld, and I understand that there will be restrictions due to very down to earth reasons like a finite amount of money and time that can be used to build this game...
 

Anoik

Novice
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
91
Vault Dweller said:
Anoik said:
The npc selling the diamond is only one of the options npcs have. Lets examine the scenario (sp?).

You need the diamond. You have some choices. Are you good? bad?. If you are bad you can steal it, if you are good at that. If you are really bad you can kill him and take the diamond. But if you are good you can try to bribe him, intimide him, you can try to buy the diamond too. But he refuse to sell it (or you are really bad at speechcraft),because it is a gift from his dead mother.

So, you have to try something. Mmmm, lets try to steal all his food, it is more easy than steal the diamond from him. Now, the npc is hungry, he need food, but he has no money.

Ok, he can try to hunt a deer, if he hunt one, he will not sell the diamond. If he can't, he can try to steal food or money, but maybe he is a good npc, so, he will not steal. What can he do? he can sell the diamond, life is a priority, so, he will sell it, not for an apple, not for a piece of meat, he will sell it for money, not for 5 coins, for the real value of the diamond. He is hungry, he is not stupid. Ok, he can sell it to a shopkeeper or to you. But maybe you don't have enoght money. What to do now? kill him? maybe, if you like to kill people, or you can go find money....

So, you can try different ways, some will work, some will not. The "try to steal all his food and then buy the diamond" is not a retarded way. He will be a retarded if he sell the diamond for an apple, not for 1000 coins.
Anoik, you keep missing the point. There is an easy way to make money so he can buy some food by looting some crates or collecting a few herbs. That's what your character is doing anyway, so why should other people be retarded and ignore the most obvious option?
You are right about that. I believe to remenber something about npcs taking items from the floor or (maybe) from crates too. He has to be a retarded npc. It is the only reason that I come up with.
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
9,614
Location
Pax Romana
Twinfalls said:
From you? Yes, true.

How are your posts any more interesting than the ones I post? All you do is whine about how much Oblivion sucks. Never mind the fact that you don't know a damn thing about it. It seems to me like the only reason you think it sucks is because you're new here, and you want to fit in with rest of the 'gang' by jumping on the Oblivion hate bandwagon. Originality isn't one of your best perks, is it?

As for the argument that Oblivion sucks because it allows you to join all the guilds and become guildmaster - well, you don't have to. Just because you can run to Vault 13 and get the GECK right off the bat in Fallout 2 doesn't mean you have to do that, either. It's what you get in a freeform game. I thought people here hated confined games like Baldur's Gate?
 

Shagnak

Shagadelic
Joined
Sep 6, 2003
Messages
4,638
Location
Arse of the world, New Zealand
Anoik said:
Really, i don't like that. I want choices, and i want consequences. If i join one guild, i want some conflicts with the others guilds. I don't like that part in Morrowind, you have only a few choices, and nothing really important. You can be the leader of all the guilds.

Maybe the Dark Brotherhoodwant to kill an npc, but the mages guild want him alive. So, you have to choice if you are in the two guilds. If you kill the npc, how can you be in the Fighters Guild? they have to "invite" you to go away, they don't like you in their guild. I want something like that.
I agree.
I want consequences. I want my actions to affect my standing with other factions/guilds/whatever.

Perhaps like it did in the Thief series, but more fleshed-out than that. If I do something for the Assassins guild that is counter to the Mage Guild's desires, then that should make it harder for me to join the Mage's Guild.

I guess it starts to get really complicated when you are already a member of both. If you are bound to offend at least one of them, what happens? Do they kick you out of the guild? Demote you?
I guess it depends on the severity, but it strikes me as definitely do-able.

If the different guilds have no interaction quest or consequence-wise at all, then that is another tool for immersion that has been removed.
Inter-faction conflict/tension = drama = good
 

bryce777

Erudite
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
4,225
Location
In my country the system operates YOU
I'm still getting a luagh at the though of the npc running to the weapons store...then running to the trainer...all the while you hacking on him like cordwood from behind as he haggles on the prices and waits for the shopkeeper to stop lighting his dog on fire.

If this ai is as disastrous and insane as it seems, maybe I will buy the game afetr all....
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Rendelius said:
You can, but you don't have to. Your decision. When I am going to roleplay my character in Oblivion, I will certainly make some decisions without the game forcing me to do so.
The game shouldn't force you to do something; instead, your action should have meanings and consequences, and that's what will restrict your ability to do everything and anything.

The effects to the other guilds of being leader of one guild could only be subliminal in the game, I suppose. Standing with the other guild members could go down, yes, but other than that? I think it would be an enormous task to program all that relations into the program, not worth the effort, really (ok, in an ideal world I would wish that they would do that, but not in real life).
Not really. I don't understand my people overcomplicate things. Here is an example from MW, the code book quest. Simple as that. There were two problems with it, if you are already a member of the Thieves Guild, they won't kick you out if you side with the Fighters. If you are not, they won't let you join which was nice. The other problem is that this quest was isolated. There were no other quests attached to it or consequences of your choice, like the growing influence of the Camorra or whoever they were.
 

Shagnak

Shagadelic
Joined
Sep 6, 2003
Messages
4,638
Location
Arse of the world, New Zealand
@Bryce:

I doubt it will be as crazy as that in the delivered game.

But I hope it will be possible to get at the innards of the game so that you can tweak things to a crazy level and just let 'er rip!
Could be amusing.

@VD and Rendelius:

I honestly don't think a faction standing system is very hard to implement. Even a simple one would be good, with your membership standing and promotional/joining opportunities linked to it.
It's not rocket science.
 

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
If the "NPC sells the diamond to the player because he's hungry" example was emergent, then some questions:

* Why would the NPC sell the diamond to me, and not a merchant? Just like the RAI drives the NPCs to go to a logical place to get food, why wouldn't it also drive the NPCs to a logical place to sell something?
* Given that the greatest strength of emergent behaviour is a degree of unpredictability, what's the assurance that the NPC will reach the conclusion that "selling diamond to player = food," unless it's specifically weighted in his behaviours to do so 100% of the time (ie, no longe emergent, but scripted)
* If RAI dictates an NPC must spend money to survive, then it should also dictate the next step in the chain, earning money as a day to day thing in order to survive.
* Shouldn't there be other emergent behaviour from this? NPC realises his shit is stolen. NPC reports theft. Guards emergently decide on a suspect, ie the new guy in town.

Emergent behaviour is a great idea, but I fail to see how this example represents a good use of it. Like VD said, it sounds as though it's explicitly scripted, and aside from RAI making that task easier for the devs, it doesn't really offer anything to the player.

Now, on topic of guilds:

As it was said earlier, why should every fucking preview tell you how to join the Dark Brotherhood? Why? Because there's only four guilds, and so making one of them a secret suddenly gets rid of 25% of your guild related content.

Nevermind the fact that discovering things like that, for instance Lycanthropy, and how to cure/mitigate the effects in Daggerfall, is a whole lot of fun. It also rewards players who make a choice according to their character, ie I decide to kill an innocent, because I'm a fucking loony. And suddenly, the Dark Brotherhood shows up, to my complete surprise. Armed with the knowledge that "killing innocents = dark brotherhood", the player makes a metagaming choice.

The first two are a force for good, while thieves are less morally stringent, but still honourable.

Why does there have to be this "honour among thieves" horseshit? To me, the "honourable" aspects of theivery, like not murdering your victim, are not done out of some rigid moral code, but are motivated by the fact that a murder is taken far more seriously than a theft. It's all about self-interest, not honour.

And secondly, why should the fighters gulid and mages guild have any kind of "alignment", especially if they're (probably) going to accept "evil" characters anyway? If the mages guild was some kind of moral majority, then they certainly wouldn't be doing things like teaching destructive or illusion magic to just anybody, given the ethical responsibility of such power.
 

Anoik

Novice
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
91
Section8 said:
If the "NPC sells the diamond to the player because he's hungry" example was emergent, then some questions:

* Why would the NPC sell the diamond to me, and not a merchant? Just like the RAI drives the NPCs to go to a logical place to get food, why wouldn't it also drive the NPCs to a logical place to sell something?
* Given that the greatest strength of emergent behaviour is a degree of unpredictability, what's the assurance that the NPC will reach the conclusion that "selling diamond to player = food," unless it's specifically weighted in his behaviours to do so 100% of the time (ie, no longe emergent, but scripted)
* If RAI dictates an NPC must spend money to survive, then it should also dictate the next step in the chain, earning money as a day to day thing in order to survive.
* Shouldn't there be other emergent behaviour from this? NPC realises his shit is stolen. NPC reports theft. Guards emergently decide on a suspect, ie the new guy in town.

Emergent behaviour is a great idea, but I fail to see how this example represents a good use of it. Like VD said, it sounds as though it's explicitly scripted, and aside from RAI making that task easier for the devs, it doesn't really offer anything to the player.

Now, on topic of guilds:

As it was said earlier, why should every fucking preview tell you how to join the Dark Brotherhood? Why? Because there's only four guilds, and so making one of them a secret suddenly gets rid of 25% of your guild related content.

Nevermind the fact that discovering things like that, for instance Lycanthropy, and how to cure/mitigate the effects in Daggerfall, is a whole lot of fun. It also rewards players who make a choice according to their character, ie I decide to kill an innocent, because I'm a fucking loony. And suddenly, the Dark Brotherhood shows up, to my complete surprise. Armed with the knowledge that "killing innocents = dark brotherhood", the player makes a metagaming choice.

The first two are a force for good, while thieves are less morally stringent, but still honourable.

Why does there have to be this "honour among thieves" horseshit? To me, the "honourable" aspects of theivery, like not murdering your victim, are not done out of some rigid moral code, but are motivated by the fact that a murder is taken far more seriously than a theft. It's all about self-interest, not honour.

And secondly, why should the fighters gulid and mages guild have any kind of "alignment", especially if they're (probably) going to accept "evil" characters anyway? If the mages guild was some kind of moral majority, then they certainly wouldn't be doing things like teaching destructive or illusion magic to just anybody, given the ethical responsibility of such power.
You have to put some limits to the AI in the quests. Sure, you can let the AI go sell the diamond to a shop, but, you need that diamond, how will you know where he sell the diamond?. Ok, ok, you can go to all shops and see their goods. Mmm, maybe very hard for the guys playing with consoles, hehe.

And about the "alignment", maybe that are words from the guy who make the interview, not from Bethesda. How can a guild that give you task like kill some guy because he haven't pay his debts be a "force of good"?. That is stupid. They work for money, they are not the Round Table guild...
 

Fresh

Erudite
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
1,057
Location
Vault boy's secret hideout
1. The comment from MSFD about Lhamagods leaked copy was hilarious.

2. I agree with Rendelius on the roleplaying/factions-topic. You dont like being able to do join all factions, fine dont do it. The main consequences are in the self-imposed restrictions/challenges you dump on your char. All in all, this is really no big deal.

3. VD's got a point with all these wacky examples Beth keeps bringing up. But on the other hand they are somewhat amusing and gets the message across to the masses about teh ubarsmart AI.

4. The thing about the preview that bugged me was "The first two are a force for good, while thieves are less morally stringent, but still honourable. "... Wtf honourable? Are every1 in the TES-universe honourable people? That sounds alot like there a bunch of sissys running around.
 

Elwro

Arcane
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
11,749
Location
Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
Section8 said:
As it was said earlier, why should every fucking preview tell you how to join the Dark Brotherhood? Why? Because there's only four guilds, and so making one of them a secret suddenly gets rid of 25% of your guild related content.
That's true and sad. I remember how fun it was when I discovered a witch coven in Daggerfall not knowing that anything like that existed at all...
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
!HyPeRbOy! said:
2. I agree with Rendelius on the roleplaying/factions-topic. You dont like being able to do join all factions, fine dont do it. The main consequences are in the self-imposed restrictions/challenges you dump on your char. All in all, this is really no big deal.
Would you like this awesome paper hat? It says WIZZARD LORD on one side.
 

Anoik

Novice
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
91
Vault Dweller said:
Anoik said:
... you need that diamond, how will you know where he sell the diamond?
That's what dumbing down is all about.
I know, and i don't like easy task. I like to use my brain in games. If i had to search all shops in Cyrodiil i will do it (but i don't need a lot of my brain for that task, hehe).
 

Fresh

Erudite
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
1,057
Location
Vault boy's secret hideout
Vault Dweller said:
!HyPeRbOy! said:
2. I agree with Rendelius on the roleplaying/factions-topic. You dont like being able to do join all factions, fine dont do it. The main consequences are in the self-imposed restrictions/challenges you dump on your char. All in all, this is really no big deal.
Would you like this awesome paper hat? It says WIZZARD LORD on one side.

I heard it the first time (?)

bryce777 said:
As he said, if nothing you do affects the response of the gameworld, what is the point? You may as well wear a paper hat that says WIZZARD LORD on it and save 50 bucks and 20 hours of your life.

The point is having fun. Immersion & make-believe is part of the fun. We all make all sorts of choices that has no real effect/response ingame.
 

bryce777

Erudite
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
4,225
Location
In my country the system operates YOU
How is it immersive if you become the MOST POWERFUL MAGE IN THE WORLD, and in fact their leader and representative in all the land, and then you go over to the thieve's guild and they say "Hey, squirt! You is a promising young lad. Go steal this shirt in verbobonc for me!" now go steal this potion from the mage's guild!
 

Selenti

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
223
Undead patrolling the Dark Brotherhood?

Oh, I give up.

Bethesda really has lost it.
 

voodoo1man

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 10, 2003
Messages
568
Location
Icy Highlands of Canada
Vault Dweller said:
<blockquote>If someone is, say, carrying a diamond that you need, but refuses to hand it over, you can avoid confrontation by stealing all the food from their home, and then offering to buy it once hunger kicks in.</blockquote>This example has been mentioned often, but if you think about, assuming you know how, where is the logic? Wouldn't it make more sense for the diamond guy to go out and look for some herbs and mushrooms, and sell them to shopkeepers than to sell "the precious" right away?

Bethesda: dumbing games down since we've discovered the console market!

Come on VD, it's not like food grows on trees or something.

Oh, wait...
 

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