Preview Choices in Oblivion

[Anoik]

Maybe, if he know a lot about alchemy, because i have to go to the forest with a book about mushrooms to know what is a good mushroom and what is a bad one, but with the book in my hands sometimes i don't know for sure what mushroom is that.

Do you need to have any skills to collect ingredients? No. Do you need to have some kinda book? No. Why place such restrictions on NPCs then?

Yes, you can collet ingredients without skill, but you don't know if that mushroom is useful or not for something. Will you collect all mushrooms and herbs you can find in the forest? will you go tho the shopkeeper with a lot of bags full of herbs and mushrooms?.

We aren't talking about realism here as selling a diamond to buy a sandwich is much more stupid. The point is what the acceptable and most logical behavior in the gameworld is. If you need quick cash, you can run and collect some herbs and mushrooms, and sell them to most merchants. If your character can do, NPCs should be able to do that too. Simple as that and no other explanation is required.

The npcs have similar restrictions than you. And we have choices, we don't have only one way of make a quest. We need the diamond. How to get it?. We can bribe him, we can steal it, we can kill him and take the diamond, we can steal his food and money and then pay him for the diamond, because he is hungry and he need the money for food. But he can go out and hunt a deer, or he can steal food or money, all based in his AI. Before we have some choices, and some ways of make something. Now, with that new AI, we have more ways of make something.

More ways are good. Retarded ways that only an idiot can enjoy are bad.

In Gothic series, for example, if you knock out a npc, and you take his weapons, he will be there doing nothing about that. In Oblivion, if he don't have a weapon, he can go buy one. In Gothic, if you attack a poor woman in his house, she will fight with you allways, in Oblivion, she will run away and ask for help. The example of the npc with the diamond is only one example of the AI of the npc, not the only option the npc have. That option, steal his food, maybe will work with that npc, but maybe not with a different npc, not all npcs will do the same.They can hunt for food, they can steal, maybe they can sell items in shops (we don't know). You only talk about the "retarded" ways, not about the rest.

But the real point is, that in Oblion, you have choices, you have options, not only one way of doing one quest, you have some options.

 

[geminito]

If I have a diamond but no sandwiches, come lunch time I would pawn my diamond and buy me some sandwiches. Good ones, too!

I really hope there are no sandwiches in Oblivion.

 

[Vault Dweller]

In Oblivion, if he don't have a weapon, he can go buy one.

Wow, that's like totally amazing. So, you are in the middle of a fight, you disarm your opponent, and then he says "Would you excuse me for a second? I will run to a local weapon store and buy me a new sword. Be back with you before you know it"

The example of the npc with the diamond is only one example of the AI of the npc, not the only option the npc have.

Maybe, maybe not. The point is that for whetever reasons Bethesda always uses the stupidest examples possible like "steal the food to buy a diamond", "set the now infamous Steve's dog on fire", etc. So, either they are unable to come up with something that's really good or they are aiming at retarded audience: "look, teh dog is on fier! lol". Either way, it doesn't look good.

You only talk about the "retarded" ways, not about the rest.

This honor isn't mine. It's Bethesda who talks only about retarded ways.

But the real point is, that in Oblion, you have choices, you have options, not only one way of doing one quest, you have some options.

Yes. You have some options. You forgot to add "Trust us, it'll be cool"

 

[crpgnut]

I like the diamond analogy, VD. It would be really moronic if an NPC sold a diamond just so they could eat. However, if they got hungry and didn't have any other means to acquire food, I could see them selling the diamond and then going on a general shopping spree that would include some food. This would make sense to me. The thing is that if I was there and offered to buy the diamond in exchange for stuff of nearly equal value, then the NPC should sell me the diamond if he likes my character. I've just become a merchant that makes house calls :D

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I think you guys are missing a point here about the diamond example. It's an example of emergent behavior. It's not something a quest designer has scripted (than it might be moronic), its something that happened becasue of the complexities of the system and was unexpected and a priori unpredictable. If a system reaches this level of "reactivity" on a broader level (which we admittedly don't know) its great, because it would actually make it interesting to think about new solutions to quests, that the designer may not even have foreseen. That would be awesome.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Wow. We have been overrun with Oblivion fanboys.

Being able to join all the guilds is just wrong. Takes alot out of replayability and definitely means that faction vs. faction stuff will not be implemented into the game very well and that sucks.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I like the diamond analogy, VD. It would be really moronic if an NPC sold a diamond just so they could eat. However, if they got hungry and didn't have any other means to acquire food...

That's the point. There are plenty of ways in TES world to make a few bucks fast without resorting to selling family heirlooms. I'd understand if an NPC was forced to pay taxes, for example, and he had to sell a valuable object to gather a LOT of money, but the "diamonds for food" concept is utterly ridiculous.

 

[Ellester]

Wow. We have been overrun with Oblivion fanboys.

Well considering every other news thread is about Oblivion, why wouldn’t they come here? The codex provides more news about this game probably more than any other site.

I’m just glad every other new post isn’t about Dungeon Siege anymore.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think you guys are missing a point here about the diamond example. It's an example of emergent behavior. It's not something a quest designer has scripted (than it might be moronic), its something that happened becasue of the complexities of the system and was unexpected and a priori unpredictable.

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's a generic script. That's what RAI is, an auto-scripter, basically. If there is no food, mark [unsellable object] as sellable. That's all there is to it, kids. That option, to force NPCs to sell unsellable items if some stuff is missing is scripted, and by your definition is moronic.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I think you guys are missing a point here about the diamond example. It's an example of emergent behavior. It's not something a quest designer has scripted (than it might be moronic), its something that happened becasue of the complexities of the system and was unexpected and a priori unpredictable.

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's a generic script. That's what RAI is, an auto-scripter, basically. If there is no food, mark [unsellable object] as sellable. That's all there is to it, kids. That option, to force NPCs to sell unsellable items if some stuff is missing is scripted, and by your definition is moronic.

A set of general behavioral rules (which of course have to be coded or scripted - duh!) that is applied to a great number of objects (NPC's in this case) is very different from a script specifically written to produce the results mentioned. One is the result of a specific design for a specific situation, planned and manually coded for this specific encounter by a designer, the other is the result of a set of behavioral rules and NPC sensors that lead to this effect. That is conceptually very different.

 

[crpgnut]

Now now, Otaku. You can't claim to be overrun by me. I've been around here a lot longer than you!
It seems to be silly to whine about an Oblivion fanboy posting in an Oblivion thread. If you don't like discussing Oblivion, go post in those 3 threads that aren't about Oblivion :D Of course, you could be talking about GhanBuriGhan. GBG, you little n00b you!

I agree about the guilds though, Otaku. Full access to all 4 guilds doesn't make a lot of sense for any character who's playing good and it does seem to severely restrict replayability. I'm hoping that there are a variety of questgivers in each guild; some good, some evil and some that just care about their discipline and could care less about how your goals are reached. We'll have to wait and see. Morrowind failed to deal with this in any meaningful way.

 

[bryce777]

The running to the weapons store in a fight one is just priceless.

Like some peasant is going to fight some lunatic in daedric plate mail in the first place!

Or survive the first sword thrust.

Moreover, surely this guy must be getting his food somewhere in the first place. If someone threw out my cheerios while I was away at work, I wouldn't give some wacko my car for cheap....

 

[bryce777]

As for guilds, since your character can be the best mage ever, best fighter ever, best thief ever all at the same time, why not let him also head all of the guilds at once?

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Does anyone know if being leader of a guild will have responsibilities?

I mean, for instance, like in BGII when you get the thieves stronghold, you have to keep going back every so many days game time to assign your thieves duties and pay dues to the guildmaster.

Not that a feature like that will save a game, but it would definitely add to the roleplay experience and be alot more realistic than just becoming leader and that's it.

Ever since Oblivion was announced, I have not really paid it much attention since, to me, it just seemed like Morrowind with prettier graphics and more *ahem* choices. I will definitely give the game a gander though once it comes out. I wouldn't be the hardcore gamer I claim to be if I didn't. Still, I am extremely leery about the whole thing. Sure it may look gorgeous, but that isn't shit in my book.

 

[Vault Dweller]

A set of general behavioral rules (which of course have to be coded or scripted - duh!) that is applied to a great number of objects (NPC's in this case) is very different from a script specifically written to produce the results mentioned.

Of course, it's different, but it's much closer to scripting than to emergent gameplay. Much, much closer.

One is the result of a specific design for a specific situation, planned and manually coded for this specific encounter by a designer, the other is the result of a set of behavioral rules and NPC sensors that lead to this effect. That is conceptually very different.

Let me go over it again. The condition that changes the status of an object from unsellable to sellable is scripted, it's not a *result* of some complex behavioral patterns. So, someone added that condition having specific quests/situations in mind. So, selling the diamond isn't an unexpected result of RAI in action, it's what RAI was specifically programmed to do in the first place. One should expect a lot of unsellable items in Oblivion that may become sellable in a totally unexpected and emergent way.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Does anyone know if being leader of a guild will have responsibilities?

It's been mentioned. Whether it's true and to what extent is unknown at this point.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

:D Of course, you could be talking about GhanBuriGhan. GBG, you little n00b you!

Yup, shame on me. but I just find that my own humble criticism of Oblivion just pales in this place, and I find myself fighting the defense. How weird. Plus, its so much more fun to argue against the trend, of course.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

A set of general behavioral rules (which of course have to be coded or scripted - duh!) that is applied to a great number of objects (NPC's in this case) is very different from a script specifically written to produce the results mentioned.

Of course, it's different, but it's much closer to scripting than to emergent gameplay. Much, much closer.

One is the result of a specific design for a specific situation, planned and manually coded for this specific encounter by a designer, the other is the result of a set of behavioral rules and NPC sensors that lead to this effect. That is conceptually very different.

Let me go over it again. The condition that changes the status of an object from unsellable to sellable is scripted, it's not a *result* of some complex behavioral patterns. So, someone added that condition having specific quests/situations in mind. So, selling the diamond isn't an unexpected result of RAI in action, it's what RAI was specifically programmed to do in the first place. One should expect a lot of unsellable items in Oblivion that may become sellable in a totally unexpected and emergent way.

I don't think so. The way I understand it there is
- a behavioral rule that tells the NPC he must eat
- he will scan his surroundings for sources of food, if he finds any, he goes and eats, case closed


- if he finds none, he has as we know from various interviews, several courses of action depending on his responsibility and maybe other stats:
* buy food (which entails finding a store and having money or something to barter with)
* steal food (which entails finding someone or someplace to steal from)
* collect / hunt for food (which entails finding and /or killing the food source)

- If he decides to buy food he will probably use money first, then items in his posession in some order of preference.

That seems pretty complex to me (as far as games go of course, I am not talking about HAL here), and the conditions that led to this solution to the diamond dilemma were relatively unpredicatble, becasue they depended on a number of conditions that have nothing to do with that particular quest. Of course you could rig the situation to have that happen which would make it scripted in your sense, but the point is it could happen just based on the general rules.
Likewise I from what has been said it would seem other situations could arise as well - some guy could get arrested trying to steal, another killed because he went out poaching and got attacked by a monster. Another guy might simply leave the house to buy food leaving you free to steal whatever he has. the point is that the rules are general and not implemented just for the purpose of that particular quest.
Its still simple, and similar things are possible in other, older games, but I always find it cool when it happens.

 

[bryce777]

I wonder if you can follow them around, find out that they are having an affair or closet homosexuals or something, and then blackmail them. Now THAT would be cool.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I wonder if you can follow them around, find out that they are having an affair or closet homosexuals or something, and then blackmail them. Now THAT would be cool.

Would definitely make the thieves guild an interesting thing indeed.

 

[Anoik]

The npc selling the diamond is only one of the options npcs have. Lets examine the scenario (sp?).

You need the diamond. You have some choices. Are you good? bad?. If you are bad you can steal it, if you are good at that. If you are really bad you can kill him and take the diamond. But if you are good you can try to bribe him, intimide him, you can try to buy the diamond too. But he refuse to sell it (or you are really bad at speechcraft),because it is a gift from his dead mother.

So, you have to try something. Mmmm, lets try to steal all his food, it is more easy than steal the diamond from him. Now, the npc is hungry, he need food, but he has no money.

Ok, he can try to hunt a deer, if he hunt one, he will not sell the diamond. If he can't, he can try to steal food or money, but maybe he is a good npc, so, he will not steal. What can he do? he can sell the diamond, life is a priority, so, he will sell it, not for an apple, not for a piece of meat, he will sell it for money, not for 5 coins, for the real value of the diamond. He is hungry, he is not stupid. Ok, he can sell it to a shopkeeper or to you. But maybe you don't have enoght money. What to do now? kill him? maybe, if you like to kill people, or you can go find money....

So, you can try different ways, some will work, some will not. The "try to steal all his food and then buy the diamond" is not a retarded way. He will be a retarded if he sell the diamond for an apple, not for 1000 coins.

 

[Rendelius]

Ahem,

not to spoil your "Oblivion will suck"-party here, but have you ever considered joining just one guild when you think it is silly to be able to join all?

Rendelius

 

[Anoik]

Re: Ahem,

not to spoil your "Oblivion will suck"-party here, but have you ever considered joining just one guild when you think it is silly to be able to join all?

Rendelius

When i played Morrowind, i only join one guild. The first time was the Fighter guild, the second time the Mages guild. I don't like to join all the guilds, it don't have logic for me. How can you join and be, if you want, the leader of all the guilds?.

But i don't like too that you can take all your skills to 100 with time. I like some limits.

Wow, that's like totally amazing. So, you are in the middle of a fight, you disarm your opponent, and then he says "Would you excuse me for a second? I will run to a local weapon store and buy me a new sword. Be back with you before you know it"

He, if you disarm your opponent, his weapon will be in the floor, near him. Why he will go buy one to a shop if he can take it from the floor?.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The problem is not whether or not player's will is strong enough to resist playing like a munchkin, the problem is the lack of proper mechanics and relationships between the guilds. The problem is that the game doesn't care that you joined the guild and became its leader. There is no reaction, there are no consequences, there is no effect on the gameworld.

How do I know? If there was something, you wouldn't be able to join and become a leader of all 4, because someone would be really pissed off, and some things you do for one guild would have affected another. Fortunately, the guilds quests are not overlapping, so nobody has to choose anything - you can have it ALL!!!!

 

[bryce777]

I wonder if you can follow them around, find out that they are having an affair or closet homosexuals or something, and then blackmail them. Now THAT would be cool.

Would definitely make the thieves guild an interesting thing indeed.

I am serious. that would be awesome. Add a whole level of spying to the game. You could find dirt in the form of letters, or maybe stumble upon a mistress, or else maybe find nothing...or following someone around long enough in secret might yield other secrets...the location of their stash, a secret identity, etc.