Preview Choices in Oblivion

[elander_]

- in MW maybe more because there is no fast travel, and the vampire example is already scripted into the quest template - thus it's not an "unexpected turn")

Of course it's unexpected for the player. He doesn't expect to receive a letter from his blood-father and you don't know the monster is a vampire until you receive the letter and read what your blood-father wants from you.

Sure its bad, but its just the price you pay for getting a freeform game that lets you progress at your whim.

The price you pay is to get boring linear quests without any recognition of the player level and skills? Daggerfall solved this problem years ago by allowing the player to refuse certain quests and ask for alternative ones.

What does your level 100 superhero want from the mages guild anyaway!

Ok level 30 then but still boring. I prefer Daggerfall generic quests to that kind of crap quests because you are free to chose them when you relly need them and that are more adequate for your class. When i play with a Nightblade for example i get much more assassination quests from tavern keepers and merchants than the other classes. This is just an example how Daggerfall is aware of your character atributes and is capable of creating specific gameplay for each class.

 

[Proweler]

Oh, by the way: to add more confusion to the discussion about the four guilds you can join at the same time if you want to:

You can only join one of the five lords that are striving for power in Cyrodiil :wink:

Makes 4+5+1 = 10 non MQ factions total.
Not bad for Morrowinds 3+3+1+1 = 8 non MQ factions.

Ok level 30 then but still boring. I prefer Daggerfall generic quests to that kind of crap quests because you are free to chose them when you relly need them and that are more adequate for your class. When i play with a Nightblade for example i get much more assassination quests from tavern keepers and merchants than the other classes. This is just an example how Daggerfall is aware of your character atributes and is capable of creating specific gameplay for each class.

Kill non important person X whit possible diversions X or Y and alternate situation A, B or C.

Might be just me but thousand Random generated qeust are as good as playing a non random generated qeust whit multiple angles of aproach and a good degree of freedom to find your own solution.

 

[Rat Keeng]

Now, BG2 handled strongholds much better...

Remember also that some of the strongholds had nice drawbacks gamewise, like the Fighter's Keep asking for money from time to time for various reconstructive purposes. If you paid up and handled matters in certain ways, the final battle for the keep would be easier, whereas being a total asshole of a ruler, would eventually cause your subjects to overthrow and kick you out. Same with the thieves' guild, and with the big mage's sphere, i remember i ended up killing all the students because i appearantly demanded too powerful items from them. Some decent role-playing there actually, come to think of it.

 

[Twinfalls]

Oh, by the way: to add more confusion to the discussion about the four guilds you can join at the same time if you want to:

You can only join one of the five lords that are striving for power in Cyrodiil :wink:

Makes 4+5+1 = 10 non MQ factions total.
Not bad for Morrowinds 3+3+1+1 = 8 non MQ factions.

Oh yeah? No-one has confirmed that you can only join one of these Lords. In fact, no-one has any info at all on these factions, such as how many quests you can actually get from these lords, or whether they really count as 'factions'. There's only been one passing mention in some interview. And I would have thought that if these really were factions with full quest lines, they'd have been mentioned more often, wouldn't you?

And consider this, too: If there really are 10 factions, then, since Bethesda have confirmed 150 quests in total, that makes 13 quests per faction maximum (and 20 miscellaneous quests). Which doesn't sound like a great deal to me.

Or am I mistaken?

 

[HardCode]

Err, what about the strongholds they built for you when you raised in rank with one of the houses? A pretty unique acknowledgement, don't you think?

Yes, but what use have that for you?.You can't collet taxes. People there don't recognize you as the owner of the strongold. And, i believe to remenber (i am not sure about this right now), that if you take something there, they will attack you because you are committing a robbery.

And, if i have a strongold, or if you are the guildmaster of one of the guilds, i want to assing quests and give orders.

Exactly. Along the same lines, you could be the head of the Mages Guild in MW, pick up a book off of the table, and then be kicked out of the Mages Guild. Errrr ... you are the Archmage ... WHO is going to kick YOU out???

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I too prefer the random quests of Daggerfall over any guild quest in MW. I won't state my reasons as they've already been brought up by elander. At least in DF, I feel I have alot more freedom then I did with MW. Also, even though the dungeons were randomly created, I always enjoy coming across one during my exploration or finding a map for one through some random quest. The game had it's flaws, but I feel it was well thought out in terms of freeform.

Sure there's alot that could be added to it, and sure I would love to see that stuff implemented into it, but as it stands, it's one of the greatest experiences I've ever had in an RPG next to Darklands.

I never even finished Morrowind. I've played through Daggerfall more times than I care to count.

 

[elander_]

Might be just me but thousand Random generated qeust are as good as playing a non random generated qeust whit multiple angles of aproach and a good degree of freedom to find your own solution.

Speaking in general yes. But only when they are very well designed and have subtle influences on every other aspect of the game. Like Fallout quests for example. In any case you will end up adding random elements to your quests that will turn in something similar to generic quests or something like RAI - a rule based system.

Being able to create a rule-based system is nothing special. You learn abuot this in the 3rd year of an IT course. It's like scripting but with hormones. You can be a great programmer and do great stuff with RAI or be a great writer and write interesting books but if you aren't a good rpg designer and don't understand the essential about rpgs you will just screw up in style with all your big tools.

And this is what the actual Bethesda staff will have to prove to the fans after the rpg disaster that was Morrowind.

 

[Proweler]

Which doesn't sound like a great deal to me.

Do you know how long theses quests are then?

A quest can be more then a FedEx to the dungeon and back. Morrowinds Main Quest took on average 20 hours. That is one hell of a qeust. So 150 qeusts of a sceptic 5 hours -fast travel - will give you 750 hours of game play. I can't say 65 hours is that bad for a faction and 100 hours in misc quest is not bad either.

But I'm just playing whit numbers in the same fashion as VD.

Speaking in general yes. But only when they are very well designed and have subtle influences on every other aspect of the game.

And this is what the actual Bethesda staff will have to prove to the fans after the rpg disaster that was Morrowind.

Nonlinearity is a waste of time, at least I'd agree to that. So if my actions in the mage guild impacts things in the fighter’s guild I'll never notice because chances are fair that I won't play the same again.

It's not important for them to make a good RPG. In fact it's not important for anybody but the rabid fans of RPG. All they want to make a good game that sells so don't get your hopes up.

 

[elander_]

It's not important for them to make a good RPG. In fact it's not important for anybody but the rabid fans of RPG. All they want to make a good game that sells so don't get your hopes up.

If they anounce an rpg they better deliver an rpg at least as good as the older titles or many people will feel cheated. However i get your point on how they can deliver a bad rpg and get away with it. They don't want to loose the respect of the older fans. That would be very bad publicity for them.

Nonlinearity is a waste of time, at least I'd agree to that. So if my actions in the mage guild impacts things in the fighter’s guild I'll never notice because chances are fair that I won't play the same again.

Linearity refers to the structure of the game and interrelations between quests so it has nothing to do with time linearity. What you are talking about is feedback. When you do a quest in the mages guild that affects the fighters guild and you get feedback on what was the result of your actions, you know that your actions could have a different impact.

Because npcs confront you with the consequences of your actions at the time you finish a quest then you know you could have done things in a different way and that you had those options available to you. Even if you can't go back and change your actions this makes all the difference.

 

[Proweler]

BETHESDA SOFTWORKS AND 2K GAMES ANNOUNCE THE ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION

• “The team at Bethesda has pushed the RPG genre forward exponentially with Oblivion and it makes for a stunning example of what the next generation Xbox is capable of,” said Christoph Hartmann, Managing Director for 2K Games. “The power of this new technology coupled with the talented developers at Bethesda, ensure that the Xbox 360 release from 2K Games and Bethesda Softworks will undoubtedly be an unforgettable gaming experience.”

10.06.05 - X05 OBLIVION PREVIEWS

• GameSpy has posted their preview of Oblivion saying "The Xbox 360's first big RPG is on its way, and it looks like it's about to revolutionize the genre. " Also, IGN posted a preview stating "Overall the game was so far everything we hope it could be."
  Finally, GameSpot posted their preview here.

If anything, they promised to push the RPG genera forward or revolutionize it. You could read that as making the RPG genera atractive to more pepople or changing the RPG genera to atract more pepole. Read it the way you like.

Okay, feedback is important. I don't think it has to affect the whole game to be effective though. Just the places where you'd expect a response should be enhough. You'll only notice the effects your actions throughout the game if you play a second time and do something in a different way.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

The question is not whether or not I'll get a different experience each time I play (well, it IS, but not as important a one as the question I am about to bring up), but rather whether or not I'll enjoy it enough to get through it even once?

Morrowind didn't even get that honor.

 

[Twinfalls]

You'll only notice the effects your actions throughout the game if you play a second time and do something in a different way.

By that I assume you mean 'decisions' rather than actions.

This is a glib little sleight-of-thought Bethesda (MSFD I'm talking to you) keep clinging to. That you somehow can fool players into thinking they are making big decisions - when they're not, and the path they're on is straight ahead no matter what.

To that, I say BallZORs. Tosh Babosh. You're gunna know if you're on a major forked path the first time through. And you're gunna know when you're not, like at every step of the MQ in Boringwind.

And if you don't have real branches, your going to lose that distinct 'I'm making a real decision here' feeling, even if you play only once.

 

[Mech]

You'll only notice the effects your actions throughout the game if you play a second time and do something in a different way.

By that I assume you mean 'decisions' rather than actions.

This is a glib little sleight-of-thought Bethesda (MSFD I'm talking to you) keep clinging to. That you somehow can fool players into thinking they are making big decisions - when they're not, and the path they're on is straight ahead no matter what.

To that, I say BallZORs. Tosh Babosh. You're gunna know if you're on a major forked path the first time through. And you're gunna know when you're not, like at every step of the MQ in Boringwind.

And if you don't have real branches, your going to lose that distinct 'I'm making a real decision here' feeling, even if you play only once.

By chance, can you even mention any game that doesn't eventually lead to the exact same consequence in the end anyway?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Geneforge, for example.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Fallout 2.

 

[franc kaos]

<snipped: Gameplay stuff>
And if you don't have real branches, your going to lose that distinct 'I'm making a real decision here' feeling, even if you play only once.

They do have real branches... and trunks - it's called speedtree...
So, lets recap, Gamebryo engine - tick, Havoc - tick, speedtrees - tick, facegen - tick...
All kinds of fancy mapping terms inc parralax, specular and normal (better than bump apparently),and we've got bloom and HDR (all technology designed by others). One employee learnt how to procedurally generate forests according to soil type (not gonna use the e word here) and they scored high with a certain Shakespearean actoor <sp by design> (no doubt thanks to Zenimax).

I love the way they love to start each game from scratch.

Anyway - my point is, they've had three years, and if it wasn't spent designing the engine/graphics/skills systems (I'm sorry, cutting + merging /= balancing), then an awful lot of time must have been spent either:
a) crafting and honing the most expressive, divergent and reactive story line and dialogue imaginable (my personal belief) - or
b) gotten pissed a lot (UK idiom for getting inebriated frequently and nothing to do with watersports) - or
c) spent so much time on attempting to include climbing, mounted combat, spears, staves and, werewolves that didn't look stupid in the beatiful new (mostly paid for) environment; and 9000 items that could be used for more than just swinging, picking up and throwing harmlessly (eg baking bread)..., they simply ran out of time.

I know I didn't mention RAI, but really, promoting a tech that Ultima7 had in '92 (and the mechanics of why they move from work to lunch to pub to bed isn't really that interesting).

I'd be more interested to know that havoc is gonna have an effect on my sword swing, not just how nicely a body slumps to the ground, or that NPCs / creatures are realistically attached to the ground properly, ie, if they're on a hill they lean forward slightly, they don't skate across the floor etc...

Sorry, gone into ramble mode... but since I have, one final question; why didn't they implement locational based damage, since bows can deliver headshots and swords can slice off limbs, it would've fit into their, aparently, new gameplay philosophy: Headshots are fun!!!11!

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a programmer, this post was simply a mini rant and should not be taken seriously.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

By chance, can you even mention any game that doesn't eventually lead to the exact same consequence in the end anyway?

Escape Velocity Nova

 

[Twinfalls]

And it doesn't even have to have multiple endings for this to apply. You can have a multiple-path MQ (like Daggerfall, or the first phase of Gothic) which leads to the same point eventually. When you're on one a distinct branch (which usually takes you down one faction line exclusively), you know that you could have gone another way. I submit this cannot be 'faked'.

You are therefore losing something with a linear MQ - that distinct frisson which colours your experience, that knowing you've made a decision and that you cannot just go over and do that different path in this game. Even better is when you know the story itself is very different as a result, no matter the final outcome.

 

[bryce777]

You'll only notice the effects your actions throughout the game if you play a second time and do something in a different way.

By that I assume you mean 'decisions' rather than actions.

This is a glib little sleight-of-thought Bethesda (MSFD I'm talking to you) keep clinging to. That you somehow can fool players into thinking they are making big decisions - when they're not, and the path they're on is straight ahead no matter what.

To that, I say BallZORs. Tosh Babosh. You're gunna know if you're on a major forked path the first time through. And you're gunna know when you're not, like at every step of the MQ in Boringwind.

And if you don't have real branches, your going to lose that distinct 'I'm making a real decision here' feeling, even if you play only once.

Life's a journey, not a destination.

By chance, can you even mention any game that doesn't eventually lead to the exact same consequence in the end anyway?

 

[Elwro]

By chance, can you even mention any game that doesn't eventually lead to the exact same consequence in the end anyway?

ADOM.

 

[Psilon]

Arcanum. Also IVAN, for that matter.

 

[Stark]

Now, my second point: one has to accept that there are certain limitations to what you can put into a game wnd what not. This is not because of the lazyness or the the lacking good will of the devs and designers, it's due to very real restrictions. As I said, you have only so and so much time and money to do the game, and you have to prioitize things according to this.

i would comment on this but i think franc kaos's post summerized my points all too well.

They do have real branches... and trunks - it's called speedtree...
So, lets recap, Gamebryo engine - tick, Havoc - tick, speedtrees - tick, facegen - tick...
All kinds of fancy mapping terms inc parralax, specular and normal (better than bump apparently),and we've got bloom and HDR (all technology designed by others). One employee learnt how to procedurally generate forests according to soil type (not gonna use the e word here) and they scored high with a certain Shakespearean actoor <sp by design> (no doubt thanks to Zenimax).

I love the way they love to start each game from scratch.

they're prioritizing features that we rpg gamers do not care too much. is it a wrong decision? no. the amazing graphics is going to help them sell alot more copies. It makes perfect business sense.

also, i believe it's a concious design decision on Bethsoft's part to allow one to join and head all the guilds made to address many complains in TES forum that the gamers can't become all the guilds head at once in MW. Bethsoft is listening to its fans and addressing their concerns. i fully understand why they did it. Understanding it does not make me a happy man though, and does not stop me from complaining it here.

i remember reading MFSD mentioned it is possible, but very difficult, to become the head for all the guilds/factions. there's probably some restrictions imposed once you become head of fighter's guild when you attempt to rise further in theive's guild. we shall see.

There are much more important questions about the game, for example how well RAI will work, which compromises had to be made to keep the NPC system balanced within itself and so on.

i would not keep my hopes high on the radient AI thingy. I expect it to be a more elaborate scripting machine, but i do not expect emergent gameplay from it (quests and solutions would not change dramatically because of it). Reading MFSD's posts reinforces this impression.

however, unlike some of the more sceptical forumers here, i do applaud Bethsoft for coding with radient AI. i see it as an incremental/experimental step towards the eventual emergent gameplay. i mean, someone's gotta start with someting. they may learn a thing or two and come up with a better one in their next installment of TES. who knows.

 

[Chefe]

I'm with you Stark, I too applaud oh holy Bethesda for implementing something that has already been done but putting a fancy name on it. Seig Heil.

 

[Stark]

By chance, can you even mention any game that doesn't eventually lead to the exact same consequence in the end anyway?

TOEE.

i love that game. i consider myself a TOEE fanboi. call me insane.

 

[Rolling Ideas]

Hello, this is my first post ever regarding Oblivion. I have many questions about Oblivion but for now I'll stick to the subject at hand. Although I'm new to rpgcodex, I'm somewhat familiar with TES having played Morrowind and read quite a bit about Oblivion. Anyway, I'll get straight to it.

Vault Dweller, how do you know that quests of opposing factions won't ever overlap? Is it possible that you will eventually get permanently banned from one guild or the other based on your choices? Well, if so, hopefully it'll happen sooner rather than later.

Bethesda, to what end will one be permitted to advance in all four guilds before logically inevitable conflicts between polarized factions lead to termination of membership? In other words, will it really be possible to sustain membership in all guilds throughout the entire game? If deeds of the PC are truly universally consequential, then I'd think not.

Bethesda, If the answer to my question is yes then I probably won't purchase Oblivion. After Oblivion is released, I will of course read as many reviews from objective reviewers as possible before making a final decision.

Thanks.

As is typical, you can join a guild from the off to improve your skills and exploit the perks of such an allegiance. Four of them are available: Mages, Fighter, Thieves and The Dark Brotherhood.

Unlike Morrowind, however, the interests and quests of these factions do not overlap, meaning that it's now possible to rise through the ranks of all four independently.

The first two are a force for good, while thieves are less morally stringent, but still honourable.

The Dark Brotherhood, however, only offers invitations to those people who have killed an innocent; once you've committed such a murder, you'll be invited to a Brotherhood domicile, a place patrolled by undead guards and draped with paintings of the Nightmother, the matriarch who slays all of her children in the night.

Some questions that beg to be asked: Why Mages & Fighters are "a force for good"? What's good about a mercenary organization? If they are good, how can you become the leader of both good and evil factions? What's the logical explanation? They are teh stupid?