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Fucking ToEE, how does it work

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by MetalCraze, Jan 10, 2012.

  1. MetalCraze Arcane

    MetalCraze
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    I was trying to play through ToEE multiple times but was dropping it out of boredom before even reaching the end of the moathouse.

    Now however that so many shitty pseudo-RPGs made it seems like the best game ever I intend to complete it.
    Just gotten past the moathouse but...

    The problem is that there are way too many fucking enemies making it incredibly hard to do anything with a lvl2 party.
    I actually managed to get through it only thanks to the heavy abuse of save/load and whatever few charm person spells that I had. And if you don't want to leave the cleric alive the fight keeps getting on next to impossible (managed to get through it though)

    So after barely making through it I got ambushed outside by like ~15 enemies and again with the abuse (but lesser now thanks to lvl3) of save/load I've managed to get through.

    So I have two questions:

    a) What the fuck is wrong with game's balance? Why up to that fight the game feels challenging enough and yet balanced but then it immediately goes up to a retarded difficulty?

    b) This one is actually important - what was your way of getting through those final battles of moathouse?
     
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  2. Stella Brando Arcane

    Stella Brando
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    Why is saving and loading a form of abusing the game? If the developers know that you will use it, then they'll likely set the difficulty of the game according to this feature.
     
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  3. Lonely Vazdru Pimp my Title

    Lonely Vazdru
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    "Sleep" spell helps a lot. Staying in the corridor and not charging into the main room full of guards can also help. As for the ambush outside (I assume that's Co8 New Content stuff) I really don't remember it being that hard. There are many enemies, but they are shitty and have shitty equipment.


    I don't get the complaint. That's how RPG are supposed to be. Some very hard and significant (boss)fights among more balanced and casual ones. Wait until you meet the Balor...
     
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  4. Smashing Axe Arcane Patron

    Smashing Axe
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    Use the web spell, use grease, use sleep, build your PCs appropriately. I didn't really find it that hard. What are your PC's stats? Are you walking around with complete gimps with 8/8/8/8/8/8? Perhaps playing modern crap like Skyrim over seven times has weakened your ability to deal with games that are remotely difficult? Perhaps you drink fluoridated water?

    Build your fighter to use a polearm, cast enlarge person on him, and take combat reflexes with great cleave. You'll get plenty of AoOs to control an area, because your reach is so great, you can also get a cleave on each AoO if you kill your opponent. With this you can take out more then 10 enemies a round. Craft your own magic equipment.
     
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  5. MetalCraze Arcane

    MetalCraze
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    Because abusing save/load is stupid? The game should be completably without 30 save/loads per combat.
    And yeah - I was staying in the corridor and luring enemies in (they tend to run in altogether though - maybe Co8 improved AI or some shit)
    There are bossfights and then there's retarded difficulty. When you absolutely have to abuse save/load to get through a fight with 15 definitely stronger enemies plus a boss - it's a retarded difficulty and not a challenge. The reason for this thread is that I want to know if it's possible to get through it in a way of challenge to your brain not to your HDD.
    I use co8 but not a NC version. The ambush was let by joinable dudes from the inn who didn't like me killing the cleric. Apparently Zert is a traitor and it was one of those consequences for not accepting cleric surrendering from what I understand.

    I did. There isn't much lvl2 mages can do though. Especially when a player doesn't expect to get fucked so hard so unexpectedly.

    Or perhaps you are being retarded?
     
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  6. Lonely Vazdru Pimp my Title

    Lonely Vazdru
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    Dude, we're talking level 2/3 characters here, don't get all worked-up.

    If you really think it's retardedly difficult and not just hard then I agree with Smashing Axe, the game may not be for you.
     
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  7. MetalCraze Arcane

    MetalCraze
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    Yes according to you the game is for special people who train their leet skills of bashing F12/F9

    I know that GRPGD is being run by imbeciles now who judge the quality of the game by deaths-per-minute but I wouldn't mind some constructive posts from people that do not think that Dark Souls is challenging because you die every 5 meters and enjoy good design instead.

    Please Codex. Be normal for once at least this year.
     
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  8. Lonely Vazdru Pimp my Title

    Lonely Vazdru
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    I tried to be. I really didn't find the moathouse that challenging. A couple of re-try for the fight against Lareth and voila. Having followed many threads, including some "let's play", about ToEE on the Codex, I can pretty much guarantee that you won't find any sympathetic hear to your claims of retarded difficulty (unless talking about the balor or some Co8 specific fights). You're the first I hear that make them. Really. Usually when people complain about the game, it's for dying of boredom, as you first did.
     
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  9. Smashing Axe Arcane Patron

    Smashing Axe
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    It's really not that hard Skyway, I may have reloaded a few fights, but nowhere near the level of what you're complaining about. You're clearly doing something very wrong if you're dying this much. If you want the game to be easier, my suggestion to you would be to reroll your character stats several times until you get something decent.
     
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  10. Papa Môlé Arcane

    Papa Môlé
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    Problem with the difficulty in this game, from what I remember, is the absurd number of, largely unavoidable, ambushes. Track and stealth help a bit, but in a lot of cases you have no choice to go forward anyway plus sneaking takes forever and gets tedious. I mean you get ambushed on the way to the moathouse by frogs, you get ambushed by bandits when you get there, you get ambushed by a giant spider when you go into the tower to rest there, you get ambushed by ghouls and gloops when you go down the stairs, you get ambushed when you step outside from the bottom of the moathouse by those terribly voice acted evil monk and fighter fucks, you get get ambushed by the "beautiful" fag and his friends before that even if you try to talk your way past because he only lets one get in near him, you get ambushed when looking for that fish or some shit for that guy in that seedy town, you get ambushed when you're going to kill the spiders for that dude in hommlet, you get ambushed when you're trying to grab that item for the priest by a skeleton priest and his undead asspals, you get ambushed ...you know what fuck it. I don't even want to try to remember this because I haven't even gotten to the damned temple yet. Moar liek Temple of Endless Ambushes amirite.

    Good combat system but encounter design was very annoying and repetitive.
     
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  11. Metro Arcane Beg Auditor

    Metro
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    It hits its stride around the seventh playthrough...
     
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  12. MetalCraze Arcane

    MetalCraze
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    I don't need sympathy, I need something else but "zomg so you don't like to abuse AI by luring them 2 by 2 into a corridor - you are a stupid casual gamer go play Skyrim". Yes I like to fight in RPGs without cutting corners.

    Smashing Axe started nicely with recommendations but then his butthurt took over his brains.

    @Papa Mole I agree. But I don't mind ambushes themselves at all. I came here purely for DnD combat after all.
    I do mind their design, ya.
    I play IWD in paralel to ToEE which throws at you much more enemies and is RTwP (which is a total clusterfuck at times) yet encounters are "almost wiped but voila you just got through". Feels much smoother and yet keeps the player on his toes.

    I'm not dying this much. In fact I got full party wipe only once. I actually don't know how many times I reloaded so I took a number out of an ass - though I reload from the middle of a combat since I don't want any more abuse than that.

    My problem with this encounter is that it's impossible to take on all enemies there with a lvl2 char party. I hate that I need to lure them into the corridor in small groups (this wouldn't be allowed to happen in PnP since they are all in the same room) - this feels too artificial.
     
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  13. Lonely Vazdru Pimp my Title

    Lonely Vazdru
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    You can have a look at the "let's play" threads in the playground subforum, they both cover the moathouse part, but one of them is "screenshotless", as in ImageShack frozen frogs, at least for the time being.
     
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  14. Skittles He ruins the fun.

    Skittles
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    Skyway, what's your party like right now?

    Also, my memory may be fuzzy, but did you skip some content pre-Moathouse? You did Emridy Meadow and so forth? I seem to recall that level 3-5 was the Moathouse, though I usually only use four or five party members rather than six.

    SmashingAxe's advice is good, even for a low level party. Enlarge Person on your fighters, hopefully with cleave and Bear's Strength/Cat's Grace on them if you hit the right level by then, will help suppress enemy archers big time and will keep charging enemies from getting to your back lines during the Lareth fight. What specific difficulties were you having with it?

    I seem to remember Web being the key to the post-Moathouse fight, to keep enemy spellcasters and ranged units suppressed. Used to be that you'd have a ring of free movement by that point, letting your melee fighters help mop up incapacitated enemies. Failing that, using Summoned Creatures to soak up damage and worry at enemy spellcasters/ranged units is second best.

    I dunno, the only tactics that TOEE really calls for that aren't standard DnD practice are things like abusing the fuck out of AoO, reach, and great cleave.
     
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  15. Haba Harbinger of Decline Patron

    Haba
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    Yeah, well you hardly provided anything to work with. You clearly are doing something wrong. Unless you tell what you're doing, obviously we won't be able to identify what it exactly is.

    The game is sometimes frustrating and occasionally you have to load an earlier fight if you manage to screw yourself over.
     
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  16. Shannow Waster of Time

    Shannow
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    ToEE is a real RPG. You can leave and do other stuff if parts of the moathouse become too difficult and come back once you've improved your level or gained good equipment. The region with the giant has lots of low-level undead that can be easily wiped with a cleric with decent stats. And Hommlet has non-combat quests and xp of course...*shudder*
    Recruitable characters.
    Scrolls of higher-level spells.
    Crowd control + tank with reach (I like the spiked chain) + "sniper" type ranged should get you trough any encounter.
    You don't have to leave the moathouse via Lareth's hidden passage and thus you don't have to fight that ambush. If you're exploiting save/reload anyway...
     
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  17. Lonely Vazdru Pimp my Title

    Lonely Vazdru
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    In the newer Co8 versions, it doesn't work anymore. You'll get ambushed no matter what exit you take.
     
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  18. Smashing Axe Arcane Patron

    Smashing Axe
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    Okay, if you want serious. Go barbarian 1 / fighter x. Barbarian really doesn't give you too much after first level, aside from uncanny dodge which is useful if you're relying upon your dexterity for AC, in which case barbarian 2. If you can't think of a feat to take, take improved initiative, it'll give you the edge at the lower levels where one hit can kill you or an opponent. I prefer to focus my fighter for damage output rather than defense, so go with a two-handed weapon, preferably a polearm for reach (Except I don't think halberds count as reach weapons). Try to make sure you have all three damage types covered, and be prepared to dish out one type of damage for the rare times you're faced with slimes and the like that have damage resistance to one or more types of normal damage.

    Unless you know what you're doing and what spells you can go without, or if you really want to avoid resting, go generalist with your wizard, and you should be going with a wizard, not a sorcerer. Glitterdust will be the best friend to you and your rogue since it makes opponents blind and thus flat-footed. Remember that buffing/battlefield control spells are far more effective than damaging spells (Let your fighter and rogue dish out the damage)

    You need a rogue to handle traps, but you don't need to put too many levels in rogue unless you want to. You're going to have most, if not all skills that matter covered by your five characters anyway. Go first level rogue at the very least since your skills are multiplied. Consider multiclassing your rogue with fighter or ranger, you should go with two weapon fighting since you rarely get the opportunity to sneak attack ranged after the first round, and with two weapon fighting you can get four or more sneak attacks a round in the end game.

    Your cleric shouldn't be evil, since you want spontaneous healing. He should probably use a shield and heavy armour. Have him focus his spells on curing conditions that could be inflicted on you by hostile spellcasters, and the rest on buffing/save or suck spells. Use him as a backup fighter for when you aren't healing/curing.

    Your last character is a wildcard. The last time I played I went bard, although that likely wasn't the most optimal decision. Focus them on enchantment spells, since they get those spells at a lower level to wizards, and can hold their own as casters if you pick the right ones. They can bolster everyone with their bard songs and they can make decent self-buffing fighters if their stats are high across the board. The better choice would be to create another fighter and focus them similar to your first, or if you want variety focus on archery, just make sure you have a high strength and dex so when you get a composite bow you can still scale reasonably well for damage with meleers.
     
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  19. MetalCraze Arcane

    MetalCraze
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    I came in there with lvl2 party. Fighter, sorc, wizard, cleric and rogue. Sleep and charm person + some damage spells like magic missile. So I had only lvl0 and lvl1 spells with very limited casts as you imagine. Lvl0 spells are next to utterly useless, stuff like daze/flare very rarely passes saving throws of enemies (lvl0 dmg spells are even more useless). Sleep takes down only 1-2 enemies and isn't often useful in a corridor where fights are too close for comfort, besides enemies tend to wake each other up rather fast.

    No I didn't do Emridy Meadow, didn't even have the quest for this - despite how hard I was trying to force myself to do uber-boring Hommlet quests (many of which aren't completable yet for what I have)
     
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  20. Smashing Axe Arcane Patron

    Smashing Axe
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    Yeah, I tended to use grease at that level and just stood my fighter next to the enemy to get constant AoOs for when he tried to stand up. It works really well in tight corridors.
     
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  21. Darth Roxor Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis

    Darth Roxor
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    ToEE was shit, but the moathouse I actually found decent, didn't really have problems with it, either. Are you playing with Co8?
     
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  22. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

    Grunker
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    Codex 2012 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    ToEE is fantastic, Darth Roxor is just butthurt about it.

    No, no it is not. I have played the game many times and like you I do not abuse AI flaws or similar. The encounter is difficult but more than managable. I've taken it with many different compositions also. A monk is a waste of space, anything else is a-go. But it is a tough encounter. AoE effects from your mage are great.

    If you can't handle the encounter however, just come back later? You're crying because you can't handle the encounter at level 2 - why, if you can't you'll just have to gain some more XP first, or do you think everything should be auto-winnable at all levels?
     
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  23. Malakal Arcane

    Malakal
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    Never had problems with difficulty in ToEE, only with boredom. Make a balanced party with at least one arcane caster, one divine caster and one fighter/rogue type, fill the rest of slots with druids/clerics. Assign stats correctly, dumps charisma and int for fighters, charisma for everyone else but your party face (sorcerers work fine for this). Give them correct equipment, including armour. Make sure your positioning is good, fight enemies in corridors, use aoe spells (also in wands and scrolls if you run out of daily spells).

    Nothing else really, that fight didnt even seem hard for me.
     
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  24. Darth Roxor Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis

    Darth Roxor
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    :troll:
     
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  25. MetalCraze Arcane

    MetalCraze
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    I'm playing with Co8, ya.

    ^^Yeah I had a thought about using grease but I wasn't sure if it will help in a corridor since, naturally, it's a double-edged sword.
    Also wizzy has only 3 lvl1 casts available at lvl2. Sorc is even more limited since it has only 2 lvl1 spells at lvl2 (I went for sleep and magic missile) even though more casts available (should've went with charm person instead of sleep maybe, did at lvl3 anyway)

    For other certain people: ffs stop treating me like a dude who doesn't know what DnD is. I know what shit to dress my dolls in. My problem is that I want to fight an encounter fairly, not luring parts of it into the corridor which feels like an exploit.
     
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