Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

KickStarter Pantheon - (Brad "EQ" McQuaid's new MMO)

Discussion in 'MMO(RP)G / Online Discussion' started by Alchemist, Jan 14, 2014.

  1. Jadeite Educated

    Jadeite
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    I never became an MMO Butterfly. Resources should be used efficiently. This fellow ran the same song-and-dance ten years ago when he designed a "core" MMORPG. Where is that now? Closed? Abandoned? What a waste. I would play an MMORPG with Ultima III graphics if the leapfrogs would stop leaping and the merchants stop conniving. At least I know one place not to look for idealists. Maybe if this clone factory had real jobs they could do something good for the world than perpetuate ritualistic foolishness.
     
    • Edgy Edgy x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • Racist Racist x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. Aenra Guest

    Aenra
    Linking the entire stream now that it's over and done with:



    One thing that hasn't changed all these years; i still want to punch most nerds in the face.. look at that manchild smiling like a 12yr old idiot. For a goddamm hour and a half, Jeesus.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2017
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Edgy Edgy x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. thesheeep Arcane

    thesheeep
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,101
    Location:
    Tampere, Finland
    I don't get it.
    Skipped over the video without sound and I didn't seem him smiling like an idiot.
    Seemed like a pretty average streamer.

    The game, however... how far is this away from release?
     
    • it is a mystery it is a mystery x 1
    ^ Top  
  4. Aenra Guest

    Aenra
    He smiles like a dork everytime they answer a question, everytime they say or explain something game-related; he smiles everytime the EQ1-reminding buff sound is heard, he smiles when he reads his "audience's" comments. He smiled when he wiped, he smiled every time he pulled. So i got pissed off. Sue me :)

    As to the game, i honestly have no clue man.. was originally meant to be a --tentative-- 2017 release, minus the crafting (due to budget), minus necros and one other class i can't recall right now (again due to budget).
    Since then however, they've gotten some seed funding, hired 4 or 5 more devs with it and a few days back, they made a statement about their having additionally secured an " 'A' funding ", whatever that is. They've hired/are hiring even more devs and are apparently implying that crafting will be fully in come launch. Same tentative launch date.
    For what it's worth, my own impression is that should funding allow for it, they will delay it and flesh it out more. Just me though.

    Mustawd i'm just a dumb redneck, what the fuck is 'A' funding" pretty please? 'A' as in there's some sort of 'B' funding and so on. Remember i'm stupid, so don't go technical on me. Pictures are O.K., lol

    edit: just came to me, lol, the second class was Bards.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2017
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Edgy Edgy x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. thesheeep Arcane

    thesheeep
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,101
    Location:
    Tampere, Finland
    Sounds far enough, then. I got a bit worried because in that video with your manchild, pretty much every graphical element collided with every other element.
    If that was close-to-release state, I'd stay very clear of it.

    I don't mind low-resolution graphics and don't need fancy shaders. But I do prefer a consistent art style ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. Aenra Guest

    Aenra
    Can't say i noticed anything that jarring, definitely a tree or two that obviously didn't belong, but my initial thinking (and it remains so) was Unity store assets that have yet to be 'converted'. Was it really that bad, lol?
    Anyway, i couldn't give a shit about that, would play it as i saw it; played worse and enjoyed them just fine :)

    Since most folks would disagree however, yeah, good thing it's still in the works. Not gonna say pre-pre-Alpha 'cause that's just bullshit considering the supposed 2017 launch, but yeah..

    Deserves to be mentioned that considering how this all started, failed KS, rumors about money disappearing, employees quitting, home-developing with a fanatic Christian as lead dev, etc, they managed a lot. Cleaned up the team (not easy when you're counting on volunteers you never met working from home), rebuilt it, kept to their vision, their playstyle, kept working on it until the money started coming in; got pros in, kept the steering as was in all other aspects.
    I respect that. And while i'm not here to tell you it's gonna be awesome (personally that is; for what it's going for, i think it may well be), it's pretty much the only and last MMO in my radar. Bit too old for the group-centric mentality, but.. you take them as they come.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  7. Aenra Guest

    Aenra
    Second (and final) part of the stream is now up. Looking good :)



    edit: btw, the release date has officially moved to 2018. Which is very good news.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2017
    ^ Top  
  8. Aenra Guest

    Aenra
    They've got a new.. newsletter out, some of the devs going over what they're currently on to and how it's shaping out. It's way too long, so will just leave a link here and post only some of the eye candy accompanying the letter:

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2017_june_devdiary/

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    (to most, this last will look a bit 'off', but to me all it says is 'Vanguard'. Which is a good thing!)
     
    ^ Top  
  9. mediocrepoet Arcane Patron

    mediocrepoet
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,301
    Location:
    Working for the man
    Codex 2012 MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
    You weren't kidding. We'll be able to close the gates of Oblivion!

    (Seriously though, I hope this is cool. What I played of Vanguard was pretty great.)


    [​IMG]
     
    • Yes Yes x 1
    • Fabulously Optimistic Fabulously Optimistic x 1
    ^ Top  
  10. Aenra Guest

    Aenra
    Had my doubts about a lot of things which, to their credit, they have dispelled.
    (dunno if you've followed this from the beginning, but try and think of each and every red flag in the game development book; it had them all. As it turns out, it was a matter of necessity/expediency. Each and every time the opportunity arose, they were taken off, one by one. Pretty unexpected and even more so considering it's McQuaid)

    Of course it needs be noted that as usually, you have your generalized wordings, your back and forths, your design shifts, etc. Most judge these according to the camp they find themselves in; more solo vs more grouping, more raid loot vs more crafting, etc.
    Myself, i stick to the backs and forths, per se. Not the most assuring of signs, implying the course is not set on stone, but again, considering everything that's transpired, can at least say the dude means business. Sorry, would have said, it's the era of microtransactions, lol..
    He is serious about making this what he said he'd make it. And it shows.

    Also worth noting is that excluding the shitty (but inevitable) pledging "gitfs", the game will have no store, in or out of the client, no RMT, no extra puchasing. Sub only, sub monthly, as it used to be. This is extremely important to me, could name you MMOs that might have interested me, only i never even downloaded them to have a look because F2P :)

    Now if you want my personal opinion (see camps above), my worry is the emphasis on the wrong old school aspects. And the discarding (partially) of the right ones.

    - They don't want this to be time-based/consuming, ergo they will be implementing some sort of a daily artificial progress barrier. My understanding is that said barrier will be at a level where someone like me won't ever reach within a single day anyway, but even so.. bespeaks of mentality and giving in to modern trends. And all the shit they bring with them.
    - They are adding (or will be eventually) a ton of stuff which is very cool to have, but in proper classic EQ fashion will probably turn out to be unfavored or secondary to most players, as yet again, it will be "group or die". Before you say it, sure.. community, team effort, social skills and you mattering, etc.. O.K. Except this isn't 1999, we know how it goes by now, we know the audience. You take the route of "group if you want to even walk down the street", you take the route of 'loot guild', of 'pixel fever', of "skillz" before personality, etc.. And on top of that, you take the route of the bad kind of competing. The giefing, the envying, the hating. We had that 19 years ago. Can you imagine implementing all this today? With the current generation of manchildren? Am too old for that. This worries me ^^
    - It often feels as if Brad is so stuck in the past, he doesn't even consider/acknowledge what has transpired since. In the positive sense i mean; he sees all the negatives and kudos to him for that, but none of the positives. My impression is (and i have engaged the man multiple times) that it's due to the number 1 issue for most developers: He does NOT play the games we play. He thinks modern MMOs=cancer and he stops there. He hasn't actually played them, because his impression of them is enough for him. It being the issue, you know what i mean? His empirical experience, as a player, not a dev, is one stuck in the late nineties. This can potentially be problematic.

    (for example: Wildstar: Shit, yeah, but hold on. You seen the way they handled the AH/market/economy before they went F2P? Amazing; smart, efficient, but utterly simplistic, ergo cheap and easily manageable. The one thing worthy of emulating from that game. He ignores it. Just.. not fitting inside his blindfold. Lotro: It managed to have dedicated crafters, talk about 5 and 6 alts just so you can occasionally play your main, and still have competitive raiding (before Rohan all this) without the typical skillz mentality. Impossible right? It did though. He doesn't even grasp how that was accomplished, ergo no way he'll even consider it. Could name you many others, but that's the gist of it. He hasn't the empirical experience, ergo he hasn't seen how it's not all cancer, how more importantly, some things should have moved on from back then, and did)

    Still, literally the single MMO i have actual hopes for. And the last.. so fingers crossed, lol

    edit: and admittedly, the more time goes by, the more i am encouraged by their choices. At least they are ones i can respect, even if i disagree.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2017
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. mediocrepoet Arcane Patron

    mediocrepoet
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,301
    Location:
    Working for the man
    Codex 2012 MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
    I've followed it on and off. Mostly off. I only have so much time on my hands. ;)

    Yeah, I tend to leave most F2P stuff pretty quickly either due to the cheapness, the cynical ways they monetize everything rather than offering a product for a fair price, and too many young kids.


    That's odd but at the same time I can at least see the urge to add something like that. MMOs can be addictive in ways that few other genres of game can. It's not often you hear of people playing themselves to death when tooling around in Baldur's Gate or CoD or something, but there are at least a few stories like that around MMOs. Especially grindy ones. Whether it's his motivation or not, there is a place for social concerns even in game design.


    This has the potential to be bad, but I'm not sure. It's a market segment that's underserved, so far as I know, and if they stick with it, the people you're worried about are likely to be turned off by it depending on how quick the gratification is. At any rate, I was once in with a progression raiding guild during vanilla WoW. Those guys were complete douchebags. I eventually quit not because I wasn't good enough, etc. but I just couldn't see spending money to spend (way too much of) my life with people I couldn't stand. I come to the Codex for that. ;)


    Maybe. Sometimes people who are good with game design sensibilities have an idea others don't which is part of what can make games great. I think it'll be a wait and see. Many modern MMOs are basically just shitty games you hang out in. I also think that if he's trying to serve a market segment that hasn't had much to work with since the 90s - say, the simulationist, group-oriented players - working as an outsider to modern MMOs might serve him well.

    *snip bits about Wildstar and LOTRO*

    I've never played Wildstar and didn't look into it to any great degree and didn't play much LOTRO. I got to maybe level 10 before I got busy with other things and hung it up. I take your point about genre evolution though. I just think that if he's trying to make something that diverges from the past at an earlier point then maybe those particular evolutions will be irrelevant. If not, they're things that can evolve in the future. Core designs solidly shape a game, but these things always evolve whether in small way like balance tweaks, or in huge ways like SWG's major overhauls, WoW's major overhauls, EQ2's, etc.


    It's the main thing to at least respect that they may have a point or vision that could be worth trying. I haven't really been able to get into MMOs much since WoW addiction broke me like 12 years ago, but if I can find one that's actually enjoyable and engage with without derailing the rest of my life, I think that's ideal.
     
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. Aenra Guest

    Aenra
    About the same really.. am stuck with the desire (and the dream) but actually playing? Pff, Vanguard and early WoW TBC, nothing since then. Maybe the odd hour or two to check something out, get disappointed and fuck off, lol, but that's it.
    Been on hold ever since :)

    And while i get where you're coming from, for me it's more like the 'could have been'. I didn't fall in lone with this concept because "raids" or because "online pew-pewing together". I fell in anticipation of all this technology providing the verisimilar, the immediate, simultaneously, in real time. It being something unrelated to what 99.9% of the audience considers or thinks of an "MMO". Classic or modern, don't matter.
    Hence my saying that while yes and all good.. this is at best a resurrecting. They could have had 200 million a budget, wouldn't matter. They're stuck on resurrecting the corpse, plus the odd the makeup addtion of course ^^

    Am happy for what it is, don't get me wrong, i wanna play this! Am just painting it clear so you can judge the rest accordingly.

    Lastly, in terms of the audience and what you said.. have heard that a lot and i don't agree. We had cunts then, we'll have cunts now, sure. Difference being that back then, even a cunt had to be relatively old (not many youngsters back then), relatively well off (remember the connection charges?) and as such relatively.. mature? (word's lost its meaning today, lol)
    Today, none of that applies. What you say therefore would only have effect in a bubble and we won't be getting that, ever again. Those of us from back then, we're what? Round our forties? At best? And how many of us still interested in this? Let me tell you, hardly enough to make a game of this type viable. If this lives, it will live and grow with and due to the younger ones. So again.. don't ever expect the audience you think you'll be getting.
    (and before you say "guild" and exceptions, i will remind you it's the collective and what it entails/how it affects the game as a whole; hence my saying about understanding the audience; today).

    edit: why am i babbling?.. Sorry. You got ten minutes to spare, go to their official forums right now and have a look.. teenies, youtubers, streamers, college grads. Look at the pics. And that's now mind you. Still in pre-Alpha yeah? And already, they form the majority. All the proof you need :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2017
    ^ Top  
  13. KevinV12000 Arcane

    KevinV12000
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    688
    Location:
    Some Lame-ass International Organization
    Have a little faith. I think the guys that made Vanguard deserve that from us. They have to know that kiddies and button-mashers are not their audience.

    The views available on the videos above strike me as solid and very, very reminiscent of Vanguard.

    If they produce an MMO as rich as Vanguard, that performs technically well, they will clean up a very lucrative niche market. Especially given the fact that other than old WoW and EQII, there are NO high fantasy MMOs out there for mature computer gamers. I trust that they know this.
     
    ^ Top  
  14. Great Deceiver Arcane

    Great Deceiver
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2012
    Messages:
    3,288
    Vanguard had a huge budget and the backing of one of the biggest industry players at the time. It was still a bug ridden mess on release, and development was rife with drama.

    Underneath all the shit was a very good game that I played a lot of, but getting to the good parts was very tough since the whole thing was cobbled together from broken bits and pieces.

    Being optimistic about this haphazardly put-together, failed crowdfunding, outsourced mess of a project is pretty hilarious to be honest.
     
    ^ Top  
  15. Aildrik Savant

    Aildrik
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    158
    A few of us at work were playing P1999 for a while but the nostalgia wore off around L35.. lol. Since then we have been keeping an eye on this project. Good to see it is back on track; it was looking pretty shaky for a while.
     
    ^ Top  
  16. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

    anvi
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,043
    Location:
    Kelethin
    Most of that is not really true, even though this is the narrative most people today want to push.

    The budget for Vanguard was supposed to be huge, but it was stopped half way through the development process when Microsoft dropped everything to get all hands on deck working on the Xbox console. Vanguard had only had about 20 million at that point which is a pittance for an MMO. For example Rift which was developed at a similar time and had a smaller world, fewer classes, inferior crafting system, and no diplomacy, had a budget of around $75 million. SWTOR had over $200 million... WoW had a budget of around $40m which is double what VG had. Even single player crap like Enter the Matrix had a budget of $67m, and Watch Dogs $78m, LA Noire $50m. So it is not true that they squandered a huge budget, they had designed a big budget game and it was pulled half way, and then SOE bought it and pushed it out the door with very little input of their own.

    Also the part about haphazardly put together mess of a project is just like negative propaganda. What makes you say that? The Kickstarter campaign failed because it was far too early and they didn't have much of the actual game to show, and it failed because of that. But they have secured a lot of funding since then and the videos above should show how far they have come. A huge difference with this game is that they are using a modified version of Unity which brings all their costs down enormously. Not only do they not have the huge licensing costs, but the Vanguard engine took dozens of people at least a year working full time to convert the Unreal 2.0 engine into a workable MMO engine, and even by the end it wasn't complete. None of that was necessary for this game, so their time, money, focus has all been spent on actual development. Also nothing is outsourced at all. They made everything in house, they used Unity store models during early stages of alpha, and most of those have been replaced by now with far superior art made by the Pantheon team. All it needs now is work on animation which they say will come later on.

    Whether it all comes together to be a fun game is impossible to say now, the gameplay they have in place is like a carbon copy of EverQuest which is a good base to work from, but it is too primitive for most people to want to play. Only time will tell if they can build something good on top of that, but they seem to being going in a good direction and have plenty of evidence of good work so far with all these videos.


    This is a very different project. Vanguard wanted the 'core' gamer which to them was old EQ players looking for something new, and old WoW players who wanted something more challenging. It was a fair niche to aim at, but the game was dropped mid development so it ended with not enough content for old EQ players, and not slick enough presentation for old WoW players, and basically failed miserably when SOE threw it out the door in an alpha state.

    This game is different. They have private funding, SOE is no more, and Microsoft are not involved. They no longer care about WoW players, and are making something strictly for fans of early MMOs, and any new players who want to try an MMO with a challenge, and there are a lot of people like that out there. Their budget is a lot lower, they are using Unity engine instead of an expensive one, so this doesn't need to have a big audience to be profitable, it just needs a solid niche audience, and so far it seems they know who that is and are making the right game for the right people. They also have a lot of experience, Vanguard might have failed (mostly just because of business and budget reasons), but EQ was a huge success, and they had 2 very successful expansions for that too. So he knows what he is doing. McQaid also has business people running the business this time, and he is focused on the programming and design which is his thing.

    Whether it will be a great MMO or not is still to be seen, but they are on the right track. Watch the videos.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. RatTower Arcane Developer

    RatTower
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2017
    Messages:
    306
    There was a stream last week. Had it running on the side but the stuff I saw seemed pretty cool.


    Same content but different streamer


    Both with Braid & Team. Second one shows a bit of an outside area as well.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  18. RatTower Arcane Developer

    RatTower
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2017
    Messages:
    306
    There was another stream showing another area/dungeon.

     
    ^ Top  
  19. LeStryfe79 Deal Breaker Patron

    LeStryfe79
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    7,289
    Location:
    Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong


    That's Jim Fucking Lee!!!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
    ^ Top  
  20. Shackleton Arbiter Patron

    Shackleton
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    838
    Location:
    Knackers Yard
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again!
    I've got maybe 20 or so years until retirement. My hope is that this game will be finished by then and I can while away my days playing what looks like Vanguard 2.0. Unfortunately, the odds of this happening are probably a lot lower than an asteroid striking the earth before then and wiping out all human life.

    I still can't see how they're funding this, unless they've got a seriously rich benefactor.
     
    ^ Top  
  21. thesheeep Arcane

    thesheeep
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,101
    Location:
    Tampere, Finland
    Heh... are those WoW icons public domain by now or what?
     
    ^ Top  
  22. RatTower Arcane Developer

    RatTower
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2017
    Messages:
    306
    There was another stream:



    Haven't had the time to watch it yet but skipped through a bit.
    Performance seems to be lacking a bit in the castle interiors.
    Otherwise it looks nice so far.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  23. deama Liturgist

    deama
    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,944
    Location:
    UK
    So how's this thing going? Is it gonna release this year or what?
     
    ^ Top  
  24. Ranselknulf Arcane Patron

    Ranselknulf
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    1,869,574
    Location:
    Best America
    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
    On time and underbudget is the mantra of MMO's.
     
    • Yes Yes x 1
    ^ Top  
  25. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

    anvi
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,043
    Location:
    Kelethin
    I think their budget is ok, they got an angel investor a while back. Team keeps growing and is quite large now. The latest guy is an experienced art/animation guy who is going to lead the team on this game. Lots of people in beta who are keeping very quiet about it which means it is good.
     
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)