The women of Caesar's Legion shouldn't have all been slaves

[Roguey]

Roguey,

There are three main issues:

1) The Legion are presented in the game as rapists. Josh and you are saying that there was actually a logical plan behind the rapes. The first issue is: Is the logical plan behind the rapes presented WITHIN the game? Because if it isn't, then the Legion were left to look like mere rapists and whatever plan is only in Josh's head.

2) Now let's assume the first issue does not exist. WHY is this the Legion's plan? History (and Roman history too) is full of desperate expansive wars, when have we seen someone try to enlarge their army through rape? Is Caesar copying someone or is he innovating?

3) Now let's assume that the two issues above do not exist, and that enlarging an army through rape actually makes practical sense. Out of all the possible plans for Caesar, why was the rape plan CHOSEN by the narrative designers? He is not the first one who is having an expansive war and needs numbers, there must be other plans too.

It's not explicitly stated, so one must infer it. It was certainly an oversight of Gonzalez for there to not be an option to ask Caesar about this aspect of the Legion. There's historical precedent, sure though as far as I can tell no one's been as autistic enough to state this as an explicit goal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage#In_armed_conflict Caesar is basically Josh thinking "If I were freed from the constraints of morality, what would I do to achieve my goals to conquer an untamed wasteland?"

 

[Latro]

Caesar is basically Josh thinking "If I were freed from the constraints of morality, what would I do to achieve my goals to conquer an untamed wasteland?"

he'd want to do that with or without morality, i think

 

[The_Mask]

The Legion are not savages. They are clearly the most disciplined faction in the entire game, and follows orders without question.

I agree with your post, except there are sentences like "strong as a house" or "the house always wins", House's secret weapon is in a bunker, NCR HQ is in a military base, or House lives in a tower - meanwhile the Legion is pretty much all tents.

I think the Legion was drawn to be in the image of its creator: strong, disciplined, ruthless, cunning, but (in the end) brittle.

This is just a theory though. I might be wrong.

 

[aweigh]

Legion seems to be having fun here

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

>durr Ceasar is who holds it all together
>the Legate is a mindless brute who can't lead shit
>it'll all turn to shit

>meet Lanius
>an even more striking presence than Edward
>commands double the authority
yeah, nah, the Legion will be alright

Lanius is too extreme tho. Its like he has a flowchart for solving all his problems, and they all lead to "Ultra-Violence". Dude can't do anything without murdering fuckloads of people.

"If I were freed from the constraints of morality, what would I do to achieve my goals to conquer an untamed wasteland?"

Create a faction of Transhuman Technophiliac Monarchical Naval Eugenists?

 

[Wunderbar]

People thought the Legion was evil? They seemed like the good guys compared to the NCR, can't think of a single redeeming quality about the NCR.

but legion consists of men wearing skirts.

 

[Viata]

Siding with Legion is only worth on the second time you play the game. The first time you hardly has any contact with them and when you do have contact with them, you are better off giving them the finger. On the second time, though, you don't really care about revenge as much as the first time, so you can go straight to them instead of vegas. They should have done the Legion better, make you have more contact with them and even do missions for them as soon as possible.

 

[RK47]

They had a chance to induct you into that undercover role when Vulpes Inculta uses you to spread the rape of Nipton to the NCR outpost but totally dropped that thread completely. An undercover campaign of terror where you can poison the water supply, blackmail important people for the Legion would mimic Ulysses' role. He was a Courier, just like the player, but he serves Caesar in secret.

Caesar sent Ulysses to the Great Salt Lake as his emissary, to rally the White Legs against New Canaan and watch over them as they undertook Caesar's test: to cut off the NCR supply lines running through Utah, and to destroy New Canaan, killing the still-living Joshua Graham along with it. He became their mentor; the White Legs called him the "Flag-Bearer" for the flag staff he carried. He taught them the values of the Legion, showed them numerous supply caches and bunkers hidden across Utah (like Spanish Fork) that gave them the weapons that they became known for, all the while lying about Caesar's pride in those who used such weapons. The act of deceit posed some problems in his mind; he compared himself to Vulpes Inculta, the man who had betrayed his former tribe. He was an inspiring presence, but not in the way he wanted to be; the White Legs began to honor him instead of the Legion. After the plundering of New Canaan, he observed that the White Legs began to braid their hair into dreadlocks, as he did. For them, it was a sign of respect for their mentor; for Ulysses, it was a hollow mockery of the ways of his destroyed tribe, the Twisted Hairs, because the significance of the braids was completely unknown to the White Legs.

 

[Beastro]

Let Caesar die during surgery and Lanius goes Scorched Earth on the mojave. The difference between "The Legion occupied all major locations, enslaving much of the population and peacefully lording over the rest" and "The Legion brutally occupied all major locations, killing and enslaving a large amount of the population."

Having Lanius in charge is like the head attack dog succeeding as leader when their master has died.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

I have to agree a big problem with the Legion is that you have to go out of your way to find their quests.

Meanwhile, you are running into NCR from Primm onwards, finding NCR Border Posts and NCR outposts and Ranger Stations and NCR Forts and NCR facilities.

Its far more likely that if you are in a "Fuck the NCR" mood, you won't be doing the Legion's bidding, but rather, doing Wild Card shit, like helping the Convicts in the Prison against the NCR* or activating ARCHIMEDES I to turn NCR people into a crisp in HELIOS, helping Kings against NCR, the works.

*btw holy shit, that fight in the prison, the one against the NCR offensive, is fuckhard. I think that's lowkey the hardest fight in the early game, game just throws like fifteen NCR soldiers wearing 10 DR armor and toting Service Rifles into your face, no lube and the prison crew gets rekted in like five secs. I did it, using a combination of loadsadrugs, a GRA plasma pistol with some upgrades (allowing me to bypass a lot of that DR) and ridiculous amounts of grenade spamming. Vaporizing all these guys also makes the Republic hate your fucking guts.

 

[abnaxus]

Praetorians don't give a fukk when you scatter C4 plastic explosive all over Caesar's tent and then literally blow everyone to the moon with detonator.

 

[Tyranicon]

Praetorians don't give a fukk when you scatter C4 plastic explosive all over Caesar's tent and then literally blow everyone to the moon with detonator.

Failed their science checks.

 

[Trashos]

Since they're an army of slaves used to wage constant war, marriage would be a completely nonsensical thing for Legionnaires. At most, they're ordered to knock up some female slaves every once in a while before they're sent back into the field.

You are missing the central point. It does not have to be marriage, someone could mention a woman he loves or whatever. Please, don't make me explain the obvious.

Of course the Legionnaires are happy, they've been brainwashed since birth to worship Caesar and know no other life.

How is that different in modern countries? Especially the ones that practice conscription.

There is also the well-known problem of the game being slightly overscoped for the development period, which caused them to cut the planned non-frontier Legion areas which would have showed safe towns where men and women live their lives without being disturbed by their strange guardians.

I know and understand about the time trouble. Still, we can still criticize what made it in.

But you keep refering to the Legion as soldiers and not slaves, which is simply wrong. A soldier may be conscripted into an army for a time, but the idea isn't that he or she will stay a soldier for the rest of their life.
A Legionnaire on the other hand, and let's make it clear that the Legion only consists of men, is chosen for the Legion at a young age. No one joins by choice. And no one quits the Legion, the only way out is death. Why?
Because the Legion is entirely made up of slaves. Beginning to end, Caesar owns them.

We are not going to agree on that point. I have previously explained my position in length. But let's talk practically: If the game wanted to present the Legionaries as slaves, it failed to do that. The Legionaries we meet seem to be some of the happiest people in the Wasteland, with lives full of meaning. That's what is actually shown in the game.

If the game wanted to present them as slaves, we should be meeting miserable fucks. That is not what we are seeing while interacting with the men (but it *is* what we are seeing while interacting with the women).

Female slaves in Legion territory are mostly used for breeding, but there are other uses. In the Fort you meet Siri who because of her previous medical training works as a healer, and Ranger Stella who due to her prowess at killing works as a gladiator.
None of these are happy about their lot in life because they are recent captures, but there should logically be women who've been raised since childhood to worship Caesar and would be happy to spread their legs for his cause. I don't think any are in the game though - again, the Legion was a victim of overscoping/not negotiating for a longer development time.

It can be larped if one really wants to larp it that way, but those are big assumptions to make for someone neutral to the matter.

 

[Trashos]

There's historical precedent, sure though as far as I can tell no one's been as autistic enough to state this as an explicit goal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage#In_armed_conflict Caesar is basically Josh thinking "If I were freed from the constraints of morality, what would I do to achieve my goals to conquer an untamed wasteland?"

Arranged marriage is very different to systematic mass rape in order to create soldiers. Again, I believe that we see the middle tiers between liberty and slavery very differently. Or rather, it looks like you totally disregard such middle tiers, and you consider whatever is not full liberty to be full slavery/rape.

I can't agree with such a view.

 

[Roguey]

"I have found you can find happiness in slavery,"--Trent Reznor

"I take away their confusion and give them obedience. I take away their fear of themselves and give them fear of Darkseid. I have liberated them from the chaos of indecision! I have given them one straight path! One clear purpose! One goal: To die for Darkseid!"--Darkseid, obviously

 

[Trashos]

The main undercurrent theme in this discussion is designing grey factions (and whether the Legion is one). If we don't discern the middle tiers between best and worst, there is no grey to speak of.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Their choices are fight or die. They're enjoying themselves because any dissenters are dead.

That interpretation is badly supported by the game, though. While Caesar does tell us about decimations and so forth, we never actually get to witness anything like that ourselves. Do we even get to talk to a single legionary who isn't a fanatic? The women, on the other hand are all obviously suffering.

Considering that, and also reading this post by Josh Sawyer, it does seem like there were some writers at Obsidian who didn't understand the Legion's society and just opted for portraying them in the crudest way possible.

This is the major problem with the Legion and any faction like it:
Goodluck finding writers in the video game industry capable of understanding it and not portraying them as literally hitler but worse