Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

The women of Caesar's Legion shouldn't have all been slaves

Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
17,897
Location
大同
not ">muh sexism"

There are even jokes about the Legionaries' sexuality in the game, in the form of sexy underwear placed in the rooms of the higherups. It looks like it was indeed "muh sexism".

Women are at least given the chance to live, as long as they comply with the regime. Men, however, are expected to die for the regime, irrespective of their own wishes. The only reason that men appear better off is because the legion exterminates men who do not serve its interests.

That's not how it works. There are men happy being Legionaries. We meet several in the game. We meet no women who are happy being with the Legion. All it would have taken is one, or a reference to one, and there is nothing. It does not look like an accident.

Sexism exists as part of the culture which naturally develops based on the system implemented by Caesar, but it is not its cause. That was beyond my point, though; the thing being that neither men nor women are assigned to duties which can be collectively defined as being "satisfactory" by either group, so if the system is shitty for those under it - it is so for all individuals, regardless of sex.

On your second point I agree, namely that the representation of the Legion leaves much to be desired on the part of the developers.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
The difference between men and women in Caeser's Legion, and what makes the women slaves, is that the women are not given any route to participate in the culture in any manner that they (the women) would find satisfactory.
No,they do have a support role,as i said technically all of them,men and women are slaves to the legion. Women not going to war doesn't mean they were not part of the legion or that they are not slaves. They are responsible for most other thing outside of fighting. They do play roles such as priests,healers,cooks,making and raising kids etc etc. Why are you keep on talking shit without even trying to read on the lore???
 

normie

️‍
Patron
Zionist Agent
Joined
Mar 9, 2019
Messages
3,727
Insert Title Here
fantadomat,
let's all take a second to ponder how goofy the situation with Boone's woman being sold to slavery by a rando is lmao, complete with proof of purchase

I really liked that story. The Seller functions within a relatively liberal system, but does not believe in the system's core values. "Those values are not there for ME, they are there for EVERYBODY ELSE". Very interesting and very realistic.
It is goofy because the sole reason the seller kept the proof of purchase was so that the player could find it, instead of having to figure it out from clues or talking to people. And since when the Legion buys their slaves, slave trade was a Fallout 2 thing, the Legion gets slaves by capturing them or assimilating conquered tribes. And they write invoices too?
wtf were they even paying for? they did all the legwork of getting the girl

could have spirited away the whole of Novac in the night but I guess they were beholden to their honour as slavers lmao
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
not ">muh sexism"

There are even jokes about the Legionaries' sexuality in the game, in the form of sexy underwear placed in the rooms of the higherups. It looks like it was indeed "muh sexism".

Women are at least given the chance to live, as long as they comply with the regime. Men, however, are expected to die for the regime, irrespective of their own wishes. The only reason that men appear better off is because the legion exterminates men who do not serve its interests.

That's not how it works. There are men happy being Legionaries. We meet several in the game. We meet no women who are happy being with the Legion. All it would have taken is one, or a reference to one, and there is nothing. It does not look like an accident.

Sexism exists as part of the culture which naturally develops based on the system implemented by Caesar, but it is not its cause. That was beyond my point, though; the thing being that neither men nor women are assigned to duties which can be collectively defined as being "satisfactory" by either group, so if the system is shitty for those under it - it is so for all individuals, regardless of sex.

On your second point I agree, namely that the representation of the Legion leaves much to be desired on the part of the developers.
Hahahahaha nice new name you game me there mate,tho it is pretty long :)
 
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
17,897
Location
大同
not ">muh sexism"

There are even jokes about the Legionaries' sexuality in the game, in the form of sexy underwear placed in the rooms of the higherups. It looks like it was indeed "muh sexism".

Women are at least given the chance to live, as long as they comply with the regime. Men, however, are expected to die for the regime, irrespective of their own wishes. The only reason that men appear better off is because the legion exterminates men who do not serve its interests.

That's not how it works. There are men happy being Legionaries. We meet several in the game. We meet no women who are happy being with the Legion. All it would have taken is one, or a reference to one, and there is nothing. It does not look like an accident.

Sexism exists as part of the culture which naturally develops based on the system implemented by Caesar, but it is not its cause. That was beyond my point, though; the thing being that neither men nor women are assigned to duties which can be collectively defined as being "satisfactory" by either group, so if the system is shitty for those under it - it is so for all individuals, regardless of sex.

On your second point I agree, namely that the representation of the Legion leaves much to be desired on the part of the developers.
Hahahahaha nice new name you game me there mate,tho it is pretty long :)
Fixed it, but that's selective quoting for y'all.
 

overly excitable young man

Guest
I dunno. You have to balance it out a little bit.

Wasn't also said that in Legion territory there are no raiders at all?
They would be a little too positive so they gave something irrational evil to be grey.

It's lazy, but if you want to make grey factions you have to do smth like that.
 

hexer

Guest
Roman Empire LARPers AKA Sawyer's historical wet dreams are so out of place in the post apocalyptical USA.
Khans on the other hand, probably inspired by Mongols biker gang, were a good fit and example of how you can successfully merge history and post-apocalypse
 

Alexios

Augur
Patron
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
444
What's with this assumption that every faction has to be "grey?" I interpreted the Legion to be a kind of rogue state governed by batshit crazy ideologues à la the Third Reich or ISIS, having no sustainability in its present form. This notion that the Legion was "too evil" to be a viable faction for the player to choose has always seemed dumb to me. The problem was that the Legion had far too little content and played more or less identically to the other factions.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
It's lazy, but if you want to make grey factions you have to do smth like that.
Could be much worse.
Radovid's portrayal in TW3...
:despair:
The pig in red i killed at the bridge? He was a pompous retard that talked big but run like a cunt. If i could,i would have cut his head at the tavern meeting,the fuck wasted my time with his retarded monologue.
 
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
17,897
Location
大同
It's lazy, but if you want to make grey factions you have to do smth like that.
Could be much worse.
Radovid's portrayal in TW3...
:despair:
The pig in red a killed at the bridge? He was a pompous retard that talked big but run like a cunt. If i could,i would have cut his head at the tavern meeting,the fuck wasted my time with his retarded monologue.
I blame CDPR for butchering the portrayal of King Radovid the Stern, fifth of his name, ruler of Redania and protector of the North. :argh:
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
fifth of his name,
You mean the last of his name :smug:. It is a shame that i had to kill the kingpin after that,he decided to try and kill the chick i fucked in the last game. He was one of the best written character in the game and he always did me a solid. He could have waited a few days before offing them.
 

Commissar Draco

Codexia Comrade Colonel Commissar
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
20,856
Location
Привислинский край
Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Legion supposed to have all those priestess, officer wives and merchants in civilized part of Legion's Domain all we were allowed to see was frontier war camp its like making Rome impression from visit in their frontier temporary fort build on occupied land no less, its makes no sense in pre-industrial society with low access to medicine and one relying on work of simple beasts of burden and human muscles to send your high status women to such place, for me it was the NCR with its ubiquitous female soldiers and even rail-road worker which was looking fake there is no way somebody would allow such roles to females and not because of muh sexism but because women are both weaker and more precious than males, just ask your Arab and Nigger rape-fugees while they send young males as first wave. Give society twenty years after the Nuclear Holocaust and those who will survive will practice patriarchy from share necessity maybe with some exceptions of high tech enclaves like Vaults and nomen omen the Enclave. But Fallout New Vegas was done by Liberats sure they were not as insane as the current year lot back then but they also rejected reality.
 

hexer

Guest
Legion supposed to have all those priestess, officer wives and merchants in civilized part of Legion's Domain all we were allowed to see was frontier war camp its like making Rome impression from visit in their frontier temporary fort build on occupied land no less, its makes no sense in pre-industrial society with low access to medicine and one relying on work of simple beasts of burden and human muscles to send your high status women to such place, for me it was the NCR with its ubiquitous female soldiers and even rail-road worker which was looking fake there is no way somebody would allow such roles to females and not because of muh sexism but because women are both weaker and more precious than males, just ask your Arab and Nigger rape-fugees while they send young males as first wave.

The golden medal for the longest sentence goes to comrade Draco
:excellent:
 

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
Wait, I thought any choice but Mr House was evil.
Not evil, but stupid. Who would fight for somebody else and get disposed off on the first opportunity, like it happend with the previous commander. Or in the best case getting a small monetary compensation for the "honorable" service by putting your life in danger.
Serving Mr House and later disposing him off was the only logical course of action. As some roman maniac, who liked beeing surranded by fatty healthy looking sleek heads that sleep at night than by lean and hungry man, said: "I would rather be first in a village than second in Rome."
F:NV would have been an other game if you could take over the Legion or become a dictator of the NCR. Then perhaps most people here would choose the Legion or at least seriously think about it (your own slaves, booze and guns).
 
Last edited:

The_Mask

Just like Yves, I chase tales.
Patron
Joined
May 3, 2018
Messages
5,898
Location
The land of ice and snow.
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Doesn't our sweet, sweet, beloved Rose have a few lines about how trading with the Legion has its upsides?

When asked about her opinions on Caesar's Legion, she expresses a similar hatred for slavers just like her father. Cass does however concede that Legion-marked caravans and their supply lines are, unlike the NCR's, well guarded and "safe as houses."

Last I checked the game presented her as a female.
 

Zer0wing

Cipher
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
2,607
Oh cool, another
-Why didn't they flesh out Legion/Whitewashed NCR too much?
-18 month of dev time, duh
thread... Well, 18 months, duh. And Alpha Protocol with Dungeon Siege 3 sitting in the back eating up manpower and time.
:negative:
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
7,952
Their choices are fight or die. They're enjoying themselves because any dissenters are dead.

That's a fundamental problem with Caesar's ideas which cut to how much Fallout goes with the typical RPG emphasis on the Great Man Theory. The trouble of what he's set up is that it ignores the will of the people he's created and what would happen if even he went far enough against them.

It's why, at least as much as the faction is presented in-game, I never got the impression they were a viable faction to side with even with his speech, because it boils down to "I've created a self-sustaining army created from the worst elements of Fallout's gang culture who are better organized and full of themselves given the purpose I gave them, but trust me everything will be ok because things are set to the ideas of a 19th Century philosopher's ideas".

That last bit is why I think FONV is more of all Fallout game that FO2, as one of the currents of the first game was the dangers of utopianism which is echoed in Caesar's hopes that stand in contrast to how kinda hallow and simplistic the Enclaves motives were in FO2 as presented.

fantadomat, you, Roguey, and whoever did the narrative design for the Legion sound like you cannot discern any middle tiers between liberty and slavery.

Most modern people don't seem to (or want to).

n Rome, I think, life expectancy was 23/25 respectively.

You're misunderstanding life expectancy.

Child mortality rate drives down life expectancy, but that doesn't mean most people would literally live into their early/mid 20s. The result was that lots of people die young, but if they survive they live an expected life, even if it's just into their 50s or 60s.
 
Last edited:

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,354
Location
Lusitânia
One possible reason why women in the legion are treated so atrouciously is probably because of exactly that.
Caeser understands the power atrocities and fear can cause to his enemies.
Besides, in such a society as the Legion where the indivual is just another resource - and as such even high ranking oficials can be discarded if they don't appease Caeser's fucked notion of the greater good - women being slaves seem to be one of the few rewards good enough to keep your men fanatically devoted to you.

>durr Ceasar is who holds it all together
>the Legate is a mindless brute who can't lead shit
>it'll all turn to shit

>meet Lanius
>an even more striking presence than Edward
>commands double the authority
yeah, nah, the Legion will be alright :salute:

Their tactics aren't adapted to the wasteland.
They lost the 1st Battle of Hoover Dam because Caeser indoctrinated them that guns are for cowards, because of that the NCR Rangers just picked them off with rifles and explosives. And what their strategy for the 2nd Battle? The same shit, only this time they got more meat bags and a canon fodder - and even then the battle is a hard one for the Legion.
Ceaser says that pre-war structures and ideals don't have any place in a post-apocalyptic world, but we can also reverse that and say that antiquated notions of honor and valor hold no ground in a post-apocalyptic world - specially when your enemies have machine guns, plasma canons and power armor.
Altough the Legion's concept of honor is a contradictory one, since Caeser has no shame in making use of Vulpes - a master of deceit, infiltration and treachery - and employing unjust measures against others and their own.

The culture Caeser created reveres as him a god and when he dies, so will the Legion.
Their whole comand structure is entirely dependant on one man - when that foundation is gone, the legion will crumble.
And Caeser wisdom isn't that good to begin with. He likes to pretend that he lost the battle for the Dam against the NCR because of Joshua, and has that whole retarded logic of killing Legionnaires that use tech because "muh mankind needs warriors not tech to survive this moment derp".
Also have you ever noticed there's no old men in the Legion? That's because they despise weakness and any official that's too old gets killed by his sucessor. A big mistake, as men of wisdom besides Caeser is what the Legion sorely needs.
And without men of experience and wisdom the Legion can only be led that men like Lanius. Which even in war means they're fucked, as Lanius and his ilk only know brutality and have no foresight - pretty much confirmed since in the ending slides if Caeser lives, he choses not to pursue the Enclave remnants because he knew of the power at their disposal; while if Lanius becomes leader, he chases the remnants where he suffers a heavy loss and gains nothing.

They extended themselves over too much territory too quickly, in a way that they can't sustain as it burns their resources at a fast pace.
In fact they are more like raiders than a empire, since they don't produce anything of their own (except the babies the women pop out) and depend on the wealth of those they conquer to sustain themselves.
It would take all they have to conquer Nevada, which means losing the grip on the East. And if they did take Nevada, they would move to California where there was nothing to conquer and the only thing left for them to consume would be themselves.
 
Last edited:

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,656
that merchant is not Legion though, he is a wandering merchant who happens to do business with the Legion. His women (I do not recall if he has any) are not Legion women.

Dale Barton says he's from Arizona, which has been conquered by the Legion. The Legion leaves normies alone for the most part, Caesar's only interested in eradicating/indoctrinating/enslaving tribals. Of course civilized women in non-Legion occupied territories are fair game for kidnapping.

>durr Ceasar is who holds it all together
>the Legate is a mindless brute who can't lead shit
>it'll all turn to shit

>meet Lanius
>an even more striking presence than Edward
>commands double the authority
yeah, nah, the Legion will be alright :salute:

Let Caesar die during surgery and Lanius goes Scorched Earth on the mojave. The difference between "The Legion occupied all major locations, enslaving much of the population and peacefully lording over the rest" and "The Legion brutally occupied all major locations, killing and enslaving a large amount of the population."
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom