The women of Caesar's Legion shouldn't have all been slaves

[Heroic Liberator]

not ">muh sexism"

There are even jokes about the Legionaries' sexuality in the game, in the form of sexy underwear placed in the rooms of the higherups. It looks like it was indeed "muh sexism".

Women are at least given the chance to live, as long as they comply with the regime. Men, however, are expected to die for the regime, irrespective of their own wishes. The only reason that men appear better off is because the legion exterminates men who do not serve its interests.

That's not how it works. There are men happy being Legionaries. We meet several in the game. We meet no women who are happy being with the Legion. All it would have taken is one, or a reference to one, and there is nothing. It does not look like an accident.

Sexism exists as part of the culture which naturally develops based on the system implemented by Caesar, but it is not its cause. That was beyond my point, though; the thing being that neither men nor women are assigned to duties which can be collectively defined as being "satisfactory" by either group, so if the system is shitty for those under it - it is so for all individuals, regardless of sex.

On your second point I agree, namely that the representation of the Legion leaves much to be desired on the part of the developers.

Hahahahaha nice new name you game me there mate,tho it is pretty long

Fixed it, but that's selective quoting for y'all.

 

[overly excitable young man]

I dunno. You have to balance it out a little bit.

Wasn't also said that in Legion territory there are no raiders at all?
They would be a little too positive so they gave something irrational evil to be grey.

It's lazy, but if you want to make grey factions you have to do smth like that.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

It's lazy, but if you want to make grey factions you have to do smth like that.

Could be much worse.

Spoiler

Radovid's portrayal in TW3...

 

[hexer]

Roman Empire LARPers AKA Sawyer's historical wet dreams are so out of place in the post apocalyptical USA.
Khans on the other hand, probably inspired by Mongols biker gang, were a good fit and example of how you can successfully merge history and post-apocalypse

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Roman Empire LARPers AKA Sawyer's historical wet dreams are so out of place in the post apocalyptical USA.

And lets not forget the silly, impractical uniforms.

 

[Alexios]

What's with this assumption that every faction has to be "grey?" I interpreted the Legion to be a kind of rogue state governed by batshit crazy ideologues à la the Third Reich or ISIS, having no sustainability in its present form. This notion that the Legion was "too evil" to be a viable faction for the player to choose has always seemed dumb to me. The problem was that the Legion had far too little content and played more or less identically to the other factions.

 

[fantadomat]

It's lazy, but if you want to make grey factions you have to do smth like that.

Could be much worse.

Spoiler

Radovid's portrayal in TW3...

The pig in red i killed at the bridge? He was a pompous retard that talked big but run like a cunt. If i could,i would have cut his head at the tavern meeting,the fuck wasted my time with his retarded monologue.

 

[fantadomat]

Roman Empire LARPers AKA Sawyer's historical wet dreams are so out of place in the post apocalyptical USA.

And lets not forget the silly, impractical uniforms.

That was the main reason i disliked them and killed them in hundreds!

 

[Heroic Liberator]

It's lazy, but if you want to make grey factions you have to do smth like that.

Could be much worse.

Spoiler

Radovid's portrayal in TW3...

The pig in red a killed at the bridge? He was a pompous retard that talked big but run like a cunt. If i could,i would have cut his head at the tavern meeting,the fuck wasted my time with his retarded monologue.

I blame CDPR for butchering the portrayal of King Radovid the Stern, fifth of his name, ruler of Redania and protector of the North.

 

[fantadomat]

fifth of his name,

You mean the last of his name . It is a shame that i had to kill the kingpin after that,he decided to try and kill the chick i fucked in the last game. He was one of the best written character in the game and he always did me a solid. He could have waited a few days before offing them.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Legion supposed to have all those priestess, officer wives and merchants in civilized part of Legion's Domain all we were allowed to see was frontier war camp its like making Rome impression from visit in their frontier temporary fort build on occupied land no less, its makes no sense in pre-industrial society with low access to medicine and one relying on work of simple beasts of burden and human muscles to send your high status women to such place, for me it was the NCR with its ubiquitous female soldiers and even rail-road worker which was looking fake there is no way somebody would allow such roles to females and not because of muh sexism but because women are both weaker and more precious than males, just ask your Arab and Nigger rape-fugees while they send young males as first wave. Give society twenty years after the Nuclear Holocaust and those who will survive will practice patriarchy from share necessity maybe with some exceptions of high tech enclaves like Vaults and nomen omen the Enclave. But Fallout New Vegas was done by Liberats sure they were not as insane as the current year lot back then but they also rejected reality.

 

[hexer]

Legion supposed to have all those priestess, officer wives and merchants in civilized part of Legion's Domain all we were allowed to see was frontier war camp its like making Rome impression from visit in their frontier temporary fort build on occupied land no less, its makes no sense in pre-industrial society with low access to medicine and one relying on work of simple beasts of burden and human muscles to send your high status women to such place, for me it was the NCR with its ubiquitous female soldiers and even rail-road worker which was looking fake there is no way somebody would allow such roles to females and not because of muh sexism but because women are both weaker and more precious than males, just ask your Arab and Nigger rape-fugees while they send young males as first wave.

The golden medal for the longest sentence goes to comrade Draco

 

[RNGsus]

Wait, I thought any choice but Mr House was evil.

 

[Darkzone]

Wait, I thought any choice but Mr House was evil.

Not evil, but stupid. Who would fight for somebody else and get disposed off on the first opportunity, like it happend with the previous commander. Or in the best case getting a small monetary compensation for the "honorable" service by putting your life in danger.
Serving Mr House and later disposing him off was the only logical course of action. As some roman maniac, who liked beeing surranded by fatty healthy looking sleek heads that sleep at night than by lean and hungry man, said: "I would rather be first in a village than second in Rome."
F:NV would have been an other game if you could take over the Legion or become a dictator of the NCR. Then perhaps most people here would choose the Legion or at least seriously think about it (your own slaves, booze and guns).

 

[The_Mask]

Doesn't our sweet, sweet, beloved Rose have a few lines about how trading with the Legion has its upsides?

Spoiler

When asked about her opinions on Caesar's Legion, she expresses a similar hatred for slavers just like her father. Cass does however concede that Legion-marked caravans and their supply lines are, unlike the NCR's, well guarded and "safe as houses."

Last I checked the game presented her as a female.

 

[Zer0wing]

Oh cool, another
-Why didn't they flesh out Legion/Whitewashed NCR too much?
-18 month of dev time, duh
thread... Well, 18 months, duh. And Alpha Protocol with Dungeon Siege 3 sitting in the back eating up manpower and time.

 

[Beastro]

Their choices are fight or die. They're enjoying themselves because any dissenters are dead.

That's a fundamental problem with Caesar's ideas which cut to how much Fallout goes with the typical RPG emphasis on the Great Man Theory. The trouble of what he's set up is that it ignores the will of the people he's created and what would happen if even he went far enough against them.

It's why, at least as much as the faction is presented in-game, I never got the impression they were a viable faction to side with even with his speech, because it boils down to "I've created a self-sustaining army created from the worst elements of Fallout's gang culture who are better organized and full of themselves given the purpose I gave them, but trust me everything will be ok because things are set to the ideas of a 19th Century philosopher's ideas".

That last bit is why I think FONV is more of all Fallout game that FO2, as one of the currents of the first game was the dangers of utopianism which is echoed in Caesar's hopes that stand in contrast to how kinda hallow and simplistic the Enclaves motives were in FO2 as presented.

fantadomat, you, Roguey, and whoever did the narrative design for the Legion sound like you cannot discern any middle tiers between liberty and slavery.

Most modern people don't seem to (or want to).

n Rome, I think, life expectancy was 23/25 respectively.

You're misunderstanding life expectancy.

Child mortality rate drives down life expectancy, but that doesn't mean most people would literally live into their early/mid 20s. The result was that lots of people die young, but if they survive they live an expected life, even if it's just into their 50s or 60s.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

One possible reason why women in the legion are treated so atrouciously is probably because of exactly that.
Caeser understands the power atrocities and fear can cause to his enemies.
Besides, in such a society as the Legion where the indivual is just another resource - and as such even high ranking oficials can be discarded if they don't appease Caeser's fucked notion of the greater good - women being slaves seem to be one of the few rewards good enough to keep your men fanatically devoted to you.

>durr Ceasar is who holds it all together
>the Legate is a mindless brute who can't lead shit
>it'll all turn to shit

>meet Lanius
>an even more striking presence than Edward
>commands double the authority
yeah, nah, the Legion will be alright

Their tactics aren't adapted to the wasteland.
They lost the 1st Battle of Hoover Dam because Caeser indoctrinated them that guns are for cowards, because of that the NCR Rangers just picked them off with rifles and explosives. And what their strategy for the 2nd Battle? The same shit, only this time they got more meat bags and a canon fodder - and even then the battle is a hard one for the Legion.
Ceaser says that pre-war structures and ideals don't have any place in a post-apocalyptic world, but we can also reverse that and say that antiquated notions of honor and valor hold no ground in a post-apocalyptic world - specially when your enemies have machine guns, plasma canons and power armor.
Altough the Legion's concept of honor is a contradictory one, since Caeser has no shame in making use of Vulpes - a master of deceit, infiltration and treachery - and employing unjust measures against others and their own.

The culture Caeser created reveres as him a god and when he dies, so will the Legion.
Their whole comand structure is entirely dependant on one man - when that foundation is gone, the legion will crumble.
And Caeser wisdom isn't that good to begin with. He likes to pretend that he lost the battle for the Dam against the NCR because of Joshua, and has that whole retarded logic of killing Legionnaires that use tech because "muh mankind needs warriors not tech to survive this moment derp".
Also have you ever noticed there's no old men in the Legion? That's because they despise weakness and any official that's too old gets killed by his sucessor. A big mistake, as men of wisdom besides Caeser is what the Legion sorely needs.
And without men of experience and wisdom the Legion can only be led that men like Lanius. Which even in war means they're fucked, as Lanius and his ilk only know brutality and have no foresight - pretty much confirmed since in the ending slides if Caeser lives, he choses not to pursue the Enclave remnants because he knew of the power at their disposal; while if Lanius becomes leader, he chases the remnants where he suffers a heavy loss and gains nothing.

They extended themselves over too much territory too quickly, in a way that they can't sustain as it burns their resources at a fast pace.
In fact they are more like raiders than a empire, since they don't produce anything of their own (except the babies the women pop out) and depend on the wealth of those they conquer to sustain themselves.
It would take all they have to conquer Nevada, which means losing the grip on the East. And if they did take Nevada, they would move to California where there was nothing to conquer and the only thing left for them to consume would be themselves.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

no u

prove it faggot

 

[Roguey]

that merchant is not Legion though, he is a wandering merchant who happens to do business with the Legion. His women (I do not recall if he has any) are not Legion women.

Dale Barton says he's from Arizona, which has been conquered by the Legion. The Legion leaves normies alone for the most part, Caesar's only interested in eradicating/indoctrinating/enslaving tribals. Of course civilized women in non-Legion occupied territories are fair game for kidnapping.

>durr Ceasar is who holds it all together
>the Legate is a mindless brute who can't lead shit
>it'll all turn to shit

>meet Lanius
>an even more striking presence than Edward
>commands double the authority
yeah, nah, the Legion will be alright

Let Caesar die during surgery and Lanius goes Scorched Earth on the mojave. The difference between "The Legion occupied all major locations, enslaving much of the population and peacefully lording over the rest" and "The Legion brutally occupied all major locations, killing and enslaving a large amount of the population."

 

[PetrusDisputator]

Their choices are fight or die. They're enjoying themselves because any dissenters are dead.

That interpretation is badly supported by the game, though. While Caesar does tell us about decimations and so forth, we never actually get to witness anything like that ourselves. Do we even get to talk to a single legionary who isn't a fanatic? The women, on the other hand are all obviously suffering.

Considering that, and also reading this post by Josh Sawyer, it does seem like there were some writers at Obsidian who didn't understand the Legion's society and just opted for portraying them in the crudest way possible.

 

[Roguey]

While Caesar does tell us about decimations and so forth, we never actually get to witness anything like that ourselves. Do we even get to talk to a single legionary who isn't a fanatic? The women, on the other hand are all obviously suffering.

They're all fanatics because the Legion has no place for men who aren't fanatics.

 

[Yosharian]

I never could get motivated enough to play as a Legion character because the Legion is just too evil. From my point of view, a more 'grey' Legion would be much more interesting. However, I'm sure some people do enjoy playing as the Legion and (probably) an evil character, so I'm not sure if it would be better for the Legion to be grey, or to keep them as evil.

Then again, I also found it enjoyable to play through Knights of the Old Republic (the singleplayer RPG, not the MMO) as a Dark Side character, so I guess I'm not averse to evil playthroughs/characters after all?

There's just something about the Legion that's... boring. It's a boring kind of evil. Slavery, subjugation of women, that stuff just doesn't interest me. I can't find anything interesting about that kind of evil.

Blowing up wookies, choking Jedis to death, annihilating groups of people with Force Lightning... that's the kind of evil I can have fun with. I guess genuine, realistic evil is just... not fun?

Anyway, that aside, I read through all the posts and I still don't really understand what the argument is, regarding women in the Legion. Is it that women being more free in the Legion would make it more realistic? More grey? More interesting? I don't quite get it.

It doesn't seem very realistic that any women would want to be involved, by choice, in a society which considers them to be breeding machines that must be made available to whatever man wants them. I mean, sure, some women do choose to become brood mares, but they generally do that when they get to choose which idiot low-IQ male(s) they want to procreate with, and there's usually a hefty incentive in the form of free money from the state per spawn they pop out into the world. So the Legion's slavery approach seems the only realistic one.

 

[RK47]

I dunno. You have to balance it out a little bit.

Wasn't also said that in Legion territory there are no raiders at all?
They would be a little too positive so they gave something irrational evil to be grey.

It's lazy, but if you want to make grey factions you have to do smth like that.

It wouldn't take much for a Legion quest to involve escorting merchant caravan and then violently butchering any raiders that try to plunder them. After you brutally interrogate them for their camp locations of course. Follow this up with a counter-raid on their camp and slaughtering to the last man and that's Legion's efficiency explained.

You wouldn't need this quest to take place in Mojave. Legion officers can teleport you to 'somewhere in the east' for you to help with the war efforts. NCR quests, in contrast, should involve double-dealing officers who aren't paid enough and try to make do by accepting bribes from raiders or skims caps off shipments with 'administrative fees' and such. There's your contrast.

 

[fantadomat]

argument

There is non,it is just people talking about their opinion on the matter. Still pretty fun thread.