The women of Caesar's Legion shouldn't have all been slaves

[Trashos]

Let me repeat myself: These people are gathered as slaves, and then men are turned into soldiers. Women are kept as slaves for no specific reason, other than your theory (unsupported within the game world and possibly in the real world as well) that such a system is more efficient for Caesar's goals.

No, being a soldier is not like being a slave, even when your only alternative is execution. Men are not slaves in Caesar's society, and the boys are not trained to be slaves. Men are the citizens of that society. The women, however, are indeed slaves, for reasons that I am failing to see.

The above quote does not answer any questions.

 

[fantadomat]

I am not saying that women should have been equal to men in Caesar's society. I am saying that they should not have been slaves.

Ahh of course they should have been. What we had seen of the legion was a forward base for raiding and attacking in the upcoming war. The fuck did you think the romans did when they were in enemy territory,talked with the local girls about knitting? Why the fuck would you expect something else from such situation???

 

[Trashos]

Why is everyone missing the point?

fantadomat, I am NOT saying that Caesar or, indeed, the Romans did not or should not have any slaves. I am asking WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE NON-SLAVE WOMEN?

 

[RK47]

Busy making Caesar salad?
*incoming thread splitting*

 

[RK47]

In my late 2019 run in FNV and I just reached Boulder City and my only contact with the Legion so far is just Nipton. I spread Vulpis' message and moved on.
I want to help them but it seems to run counter against my motivation to seek out Benny. There's almost zero chance of you running into Legion operation and assisting them unless you want to start partaking in the radiant shootout between NCR Caravans and the Legion - but the Legion will never acknowledge that contribution.

To make contact with the Legion you'd have to go off the main route - and break off from the main motivation of the courier's revenge.
That's what bothered me about it.

In the reverse, assisting the NCR helps me gain access to the rail into New Vegas. Not to mention having the dialogue with the First Recon dudes at McCarran - normal conversation mind you, learning their background and how the world works in Mojave. I am not required to assist them, but constant interaction helps to paint NCR in a better light. The ones in charge of NCR are fucked up - e.g Helios One, but people on the ground like Dhatri, First Recons, they're the good guys. I honestly have no motivation to shoot them.

IMO Nipton should've lead the Courier to a Legion aligned operation, not just drop him off like that. Suppose you follow the main route till Vegas with no detour, the next contact between you and Legion is just the inside man giving you a coin after you collected the Chip from Benny.

That's no good.
Also - the reverse effect from helping Legion takes place - it makes it harder for you to get to Vegas. NCR kill squads, NCR patrols, and I think the NCR troops at the Strip starts shooting you. And it cuts you off from McCarran and Camp Forlorn Hope's content.

Holy shit. That's just too much lost for too little. I don't want to sound like I have a severe fear of missing out - but helping the Legion just maims the game world a bit too much.

 

[Commissar Draco]

In my late 2019 run in FNV and I just reached Boulder City and my only contact with the Legion so far is just Nipton. I spread Vulpis' message and moved on.
I want to help them but it seems to run counter against my motivation to seek out Benny. There's almost zero chance of you running into Legion operation and assisting them unless you want to start partaking in the radiant shootout between NCR Caravans and the Legion - but the Legion will never acknowledge that contribution.

To make contact with the Legion you'd have to go off the main route - and break off from the main motivation of the courier's revenge.
That's what bothered me about it.

In the reverse, assisting the NCR helps me gain access to the rail into New Vegas. Not to mention having the dialogue with the First Recon dudes at McCarran - normal conversation mind you, learning their background and how the world works in Mojave. I am not required to assist them, but constant interaction helps to paint NCR in a better light. The ones in charge of NCR are fucked up - e.g Helios One, but people on the ground like Dhatri, First Recons, they're the good guys. I honestly have no motivation to shoot them.

IMO Nipton should've lead the Courier to a Legion aligned operation, not just drop him off like that. Suppose you follow the main route till Vegas with no detour, the next contact between you and Legion is just the inside man giving you a coin after you collected the Chip from Benny.

That's no good.

Yes but soon you can't help but notice that all those good goys are powerless and that NCR continuous presence in Mojave hinges only on your PC good grace Comrade, nevertheless Josh was heavily criticized for making other factions if not emotionally sympathetic but certainly viable alternatives to NCR, Legion too and hence now we have the conflict painted with all subtlety of North Korea war propaganda, we cant have gamers to have bad thoughts and choose wrong again not after 2016 it seems.

 

[aweigh]

i always support NCR cos capitalism is based af

 

[turkishronin]

i always support NCR cos capitalism is based af

The real capitalist is Mr. House

 

[Riddler]

Why is everyone missing the point?

fantadomat, I am NOT saying that Caesar or, indeed, the Romans did not or should not have any slaves. I am asking WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE NON-SLAVE WOMEN?

Presumably not in their forward military camps but rather in their homeland where they are "safe"?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

i always support NCR cos capitalism is based af

The real capitalist is Mr. House

House is a technocrat, money is just means to an end for him not the end goal.

Yes, that's how capitalism works.

 

[Wesp5]

Here's how you make a good villain

That's a rather primitive way. I was thinking about Burke from "Aliens" or even worse, Mr. Morden from "Babylon 5"! These would have been perfect villains in a corporate universe as shown in TOW...

 

[Quillon]

I am not saying that women should have been equal to men in Caesar's society. I am saying that they should not have been slaves.

Ahh of course they should have been. What we had seen of the legion was a forward base for raiding and attacking in the upcoming war. The fuck did you think the romans did when they were in enemy territory,talked with the local girls about knitting? Why the fuck would you expect something else from such situation???

Did the Legion have a base city/country with soldiers' families living who are not slaves so the women in the camps are only war victims? If not so don't try to make realistic explanations for it.

 

[Roguey]

Let me repeat myself: These people are gathered as slaves, and then men are turned into soldiers. Women are kept as slaves for no specific reason, other than your theory (unsupported within the game world and possibly in the real world as well) that such a system is more efficient for Caesar's goals.

No, being a soldier is not like being a slave, even when your only alternative is execution. Men are not slaves in Caesar's society, and the boys are not trained to be slaves. Men are the citizens of that society. The women, however, are indeed slaves, for reasons that I am failing to see.

The above quote does not answer any questions.

The citizens of Caesar's Legion aren't a part of the Legion. The men of the Legion can only be soldiers. They have no freedom, ergo they're slaves.

When another legatus or a Centurion fails to achieve results, I send Lanius to make things right.

His first step is to beat the failed commander to death in front of his assembled troops. Then he orders the ritual of decimatio.

It means "decimation," but in ancient Rome the word had a very specific meaning - a punishment for cowardice.

The Legionaries are lined up in ranks. Every tenth man steps forward and is beaten to death by his brothers.

It instills a certain... robust obedience.

As for the one female slave you're able to talk to

We're property. If you're too young or too old, the men usually leave you alone. Usually.

This is not unlike women's role in the past.

(on the next page, the answer to the question of who would tend the fields was "slaves.")

 

[fantadomat]

I am not saying that women should have been equal to men in Caesar's society. I am saying that they should not have been slaves.

Ahh of course they should have been. What we had seen of the legion was a forward base for raiding and attacking in the upcoming war. The fuck did you think the romans did when they were in enemy territory,talked with the local girls about knitting? Why the fuck would you expect something else from such situation???

Did the Legion have a base city/country with soldiers' families living who are not slaves so the women in the camps are only war victims? If not so don't try to make realistic explanations for it.

Ahhh that is my point,you won't see civilians and soldier's families on the front lines. From the npc dialogue you get that the core of the empire are pretty chill and they don't go full on savage mode. Also i like that part of the game,it is pretty realistic depiction of war.

 

[Quillon]

I am not saying that women should have been equal to men in Caesar's society. I am saying that they should not have been slaves.

Ahh of course they should have been. What we had seen of the legion was a forward base for raiding and attacking in the upcoming war. The fuck did you think the romans did when they were in enemy territory,talked with the local girls about knitting? Why the fuck would you expect something else from such situation???

Did the Legion have a base city/country with soldiers' families living who are not slaves so the women in the camps are only war victims? If not so don't try to make realistic explanations for it.

Ahhh that is my point,you won't see civilians and soldier's families on the front lines. From the npc dialogue you get that the core of the empire are pretty chill and they don't go full on savage mode. Also i like that part of the game,it is pretty realistic depiction of war.

But do they have families back in somewhere? Did the game ever tell us/indicate towards such things exists about the legion? If they have its pretty important to tell us that doncha think? Otherwise we are assuming what we see is all about the legion, they are tribals who always live in camps where everyone forced to be soldier/worker/slave.

 

[fantadomat]

I am not saying that women should have been equal to men in Caesar's society. I am saying that they should not have been slaves.

Ahh of course they should have been. What we had seen of the legion was a forward base for raiding and attacking in the upcoming war. The fuck did you think the romans did when they were in enemy territory,talked with the local girls about knitting? Why the fuck would you expect something else from such situation???

Did the Legion have a base city/country with soldiers' families living who are not slaves so the women in the camps are only war victims? If not so don't try to make realistic explanations for it.

Ahhh that is my point,you won't see civilians and soldier's families on the front lines. From the npc dialogue you get that the core of the empire are pretty chill and they don't go full on savage mode. Also i like that part of the game,it is pretty realistic depiction of war.

But do they have families back in somewhere? Did the game ever tell us/indicate towards such things exists about the legion? If they have its pretty important to tell us that doncha think? Otherwise we are assuming what we see is all about the legion, they are tribals who always live in camps where everyone forced to be soldier/worker/slave.

Yes,mate you should read more shit in rpgs . They do have families and they do have a civilization even if martial focused. Tho there wasn't much of info about it in the game because the legion was unfinished.

 

[fantadomat]

Don't give me fucking "citation needed",go and play the fucking game you assholes! This is supposed to be a fucking RPG forum,you should know that shit!

 

[Trashos]

No Legion character references "a wife back home" in non-Legion runs. All it would take is one of the Legion characters to say such a thing, but there is none of it.

I have played NV for thousands of hours. If it is there, I have not seen it. If there is such a discussion in Legion-runs, let us know. (I have only played the Legion once, I am a House guy)

 

[Infinitron]

My guess is that the most useful civilians within Legion territory, like that one merchant you encounter at the Fort, have arrangements with Caesar that their wives and daughters are to be left alone. You could call those non-enslaved Legion women if you want.

 

[Trashos]

Infinitron, that merchant is not Legion though, he is a wandering merchant who happens to do business with the Legion. His women (I do not recall if he has any) are not Legion women.

My original point was that the woman's position in the Legion society is shown to be that of a slave. Which is totally unnecessary from any point of view, and looks like a lol-random narrative designer decision to make the Legion look more evul.

 

[Trashos]

maybe they should've genderbent the merchant or given him a wife tag-along to make the point? well, they didn't, or they just didn't think of it

A wife tag-along wouldn't have helped. It might have been part of the arrangement with the merchant. What would have helped is this:

No Legion character references "a wife back home" in non-Legion runs. All it would take is one of the Legion characters to say such a thing, but there is none of it.

Very easy and fast to do, but it was not done. Look, this was probably done on purpose. It looks like it was done on purpose.

tbh the Legion's writing is pulling various opposing directions, as if it was handled by both soyim bent on undermining the concept and people who could entertain it without ridicule

Yes! That's where I am driving at.

 

[fantadomat]

Infinitron, that merchant is not Legion though, he is a wandering merchant who happens to do business with the Legion. His women (I do not recall if he has any) are not Legion women.

My original point was that the woman's position in the Legion society is shown to be that of a slave. Which is totally unnecessary from any point of view, and looks like a lol-random narrative designer decision to make the Legion look more evul.

They are no more slaves than man of the legion,all of them are war losers that got force recruited in the legion and broken in to submission to legion doctrines! Women stay behind the lines and do women shit,while men fight,it is natural segregation that we have seen throughout history,even if it is more hyperbolized in the game. Also how that makes the legion look evil? Why are you so butthurt about female slaves? Was it better when a bunch of niggers were selling young kids to cook cook? Slavery is a natural outcome of anarchic times,there is nothing out of place with the legion having slaves.

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

The legion in F:NV was pooly written,they're just bad guys running around pillaging cities,killing and slaving people for banal reasons,totally out of place compared to other factions.

 

[Trashos]

fantadomat, you, Roguey, and whoever did the narrative design for the Legion sound like you cannot discern any middle tiers between liberty and slavery.

What I am butthurt about is that the Legion's system was not given a fair chance. As I have stated in the OP:

If Obsidian wanted to give the Legion and their system a fair chance, they would have attributed them only with the bad features that stem from the same origins as their good features. That's what they did with the NCR, for example. Instead, the Legion's system was presented with its good and its bad, and then the woman enslavement idiocy was added on top for no apparent reason. "But you know what, they also enslave all women, LOL". It was like Obsidian suddenly realized that militant dictatorship was looking fucking cool in their game, and resorted to over-the-top measures to solve the "issue".

 

[Neanderthal]

The enemy coming to conquer you is not often seen in a favourable light.