The women of Caesar's Legion shouldn't have all been slaves

[Sigourn]

I don't have a problem with the women in Caesar's Legion. Caesar's Legion is meant to be a bunch of hardened people, cold-hearted if you will. But what choice do they have? If they were soft-hearted, they wouldn't have become the military empire they are.

My actual issue with Caesar's Legion is that I have to pretend everything will work out fine when there's enough in-game evidence to prove that simply won't happen. I can perfectly accept the point of view that the Legion is "necessary evil" to pacify the wasteland and properly rebuilt it. The problem is that the in-game evidence says "when Caesar dies, goodbye Legion". The Legion is grey morality done right, if we pretend the Legion can survive without Caesar. The people saying

1. muh misogyny
2. muh slaves
3. muh crucifixions

are the same retards who say

1. "muh safe roads argument"

The issue is not whether having slaves is a good or bad thing. The issue is putting everything into context: they don't have slaves for the pleasure of having them, they have them because they NEED them to succeed. Likewise, it's easy to mock safe roads when you are playing a videogame instead of living in an actual, post-nuclear wasteland, knowing your house may be pillaged and your family raped while you sleep. It's not just about "muh safe roads", it's about muh safe EVERYTHING.

But like I mentioned earlier, the only way I can justify roleplaying a Legion character is with headcanon that goes against what the game shows me. I will pretend that Caesar will name me his successor and I will peacefully (i.e. without Legion in-fighting) continue his legacy, and so forth and so forth until the wasteland is repopulated, civilized, and ushers a new age.

This is why a New Vegas sequel which makes a Legion victory at the Second Battle of Hoover Dam canon would have been great. It would have let us see the Legion in a fairer light, hell, perhaps being able to go back to the Mojave and see how a Legion victory worked out for it.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The legion is evil for evil's sake because otherwise more people would side with them.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

because they NEED them to succeed.

Why?
In a society without any form of contraceptive or sanctioned abortion, why do women need to be enslaved to pop out babies?
History has shown us that women had no issue doing that without being a slave. Hell, look at Africa.

 

[fantadomat]

fantadomat, you, Roguey, and whoever did the narrative design for the Legion sound like you cannot discern any middle tiers between liberty and slavery.

What I am butthurt about is that the Legion's system was not given a fair chance. As I have stated in the OP:

If Obsidian wanted to give the Legion and their system a fair chance, they would have attributed them only with the bad features that stem from the same origins as their good features. That's what they did with the NCR, for example. Instead, the Legion's system was presented with its good and its bad, and then the woman enslavement idiocy was added on top for no apparent reason. "But you know what, they also enslave all women, LOL". It was like Obsidian suddenly realized that militant dictatorship was looking fucking cool in their game, and resorted to over-the-top measures to solve the "issue".

As i said,the legion was unfinished and ended pretty meh. I never saw taking slaves and killing shit as evil. I killed legioners because they were larping as glorious romans and drinking was prohibited! Who wouldn't shoot a savage clown that looks like this and screech that he is a roman??? I really disliked their armour design,they looked like a bunch of retarded scavengers larping as romans.

If they looked like that,i wouldn't have minded wiping the beta republic cucks for them.

 

[Dodo1610]

The legion was meant to be evil, they are the villains. The whole point is that when you see the corruption of the wasteland you start to wonder that maybe they are right. It's that what makes them so scary that even somebody who believes in liberal ideas is forced to wonder if tyranny isn't the better option at least for now.

 

[fantadomat]

because they NEED them to succeed.

Why?
In a society without any form of contraceptive or sanctioned abortion, why do women need to be enslaved to pop out babies?
History has shown us that women had no issue doing that without being a slave. Hell, look at Africa.

He was talking about slaves,why are you talking only about women slaves?

 

[Sigourn]

The legion was meant to be evil, they are the villains. The whole point is that when you see the corruption of the wasteland you start to wonder that maybe they are right. It's that what makes them so scary that even somebody who believes in liberal ideas is forced to wonder if tyranny isn't the better option at least for now.

This.

It doesn't help that most people who play New Vegas haven't played Fallout 2 (at the time, myself included). So they don't really know to what extent the NCR is run by pieces of shit.

 

[fantadomat]

The legion was meant to be evil, they are the villains. The whole point is that when you see the corruption of the wasteland you start to wonder that maybe they are right. It's that what makes them so scary that even somebody who believes in liberal ideas is forced to wonder if tyranny isn't the better option at least for now.

That is not evil,that is ideological opposition. I don't believe in muh freedom propaganda,don't see my self as evil.

 

[Trashos]

The Legion is grey morality done right

Disagree (as expected). The NCR is grey done right. House is grey done right. The Protectorate and the Free Drones in Underrail are grey done right. The Legion is not, because they were given additional extreme features that have nothing to do with their core characteristics.

 

[Trashos]

fantadomat, what citation do you need?

let's all take a second to ponder how goofy the situation with Boone's woman being sold to slavery by a rando is lmao, complete with proof of purchase

I really liked that story. The Seller functions within a relatively liberal system, but does not believe in the system's core values. "Those values are not there for ME, they are there for EVERYBODY ELSE". Very interesting and very realistic.

 

[Egosphere]

Let me repeat myself: These people are gathered as slaves, and then men are turned into soldiers. Women are kept as slaves for no specific reason, other than your theory (unsupported within the game world and possibly in the real world as well) that such a system is more efficient for Caesar's goals.

No, being a soldier is not like being a slave, even when your only alternative is execution. Men are not slaves in Caesar's society, and the boys are not trained to be slaves. Men are the citizens of that society. The women, however, are indeed slaves, for reasons that I am failing to see.

The above quote does not answer any questions.

Men are forced to become the rank and file of Caesar's war machine against the NCR. Those who are free-thinking or intransigent, those who dissent or run away, are (presumably) hunted down and killed (or worse). So what you get is a genetic filter which selects for people that are fanatical, violent and steadfast in their loyalty to the Legion.

And what's the difference between being a slave and being a soldier against your will? The former is forced to work against her will, the latter is forced to fight against his will. I'd wager that the life expectancy of men in the legion is shorter than the women's. In Rome, I think, life expectancy was 23/25 respectively.

 

[fantadomat]

additional extreme features that have nothing to do with their core characteristics.

what citation do you need?

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Even if the Legion had been presented in a better ligth, it wouldn't matter.
Because Caeser is fabulously optimistic about his plan of synthesis and once he's gone the Legion would devolve to a bunch of warmongering tribes, each one more savage than the other.

Ultimately let's not forget that Obsidian only had little more than a year to deliver New Vegas.
And a lot of Legion related content was cut - quests, items, locations, NPC's (Alexus has the highest CHAR of all npc's, he was suposed to be a major character), events (skirmishes, raids and patrol clashes were to be a part of the world) and even a full blown slave trading system (which implies slavery would've been better explored).

 

[Sigourn]

The Legion is not, because they were given additional extreme features that have nothing to do with their core characteristics.

You don't conquer tribes by being nice guys. You don't conquer tribes by making your enemies think "oh they are not so bad".

 

[Egosphere]

As i said,the legion was unfinished and ended pretty meh. I never saw taking slaves and killing shit as evil. I killed legioners because they were larping as glorious romans and drinking was prohibited! Who wouldn't shoot a savage clown that looks like this and screech that he is a roman???

What's quite interesting (and was perhaps intentional) is that the legion society resembles nomadic steppe peoples a lot more than it resembles Rome. NCR vs Legion is really a story of settled civilization clashing against a confederacy of roving tribe. Caesar is a good character as well since he's a renegade of civilization, which is what gives the Legion that 'greyness' when it comes to morality. Sure, they're violent and cruel, but they're led by a guy who is very much a product of the society that they're fighting.

 

[aweigh]

there will never be threads like these for TOW, i can tell you that much.

sheeeet double split incoming

 

[Trashos]

And what's the difference between being a slave and being a soldier against your will? The former is forced to work against her will, the latter is forced to fight against his will. I'd wager that the life expectancy of men in the legion is shorter than the women's. In Rome, I think, life expectancy was 23/25 respectively.

People in societies have rights and obligations. When they fail to meet their obligations, punishment follows. When they meet their obligations, there is no punishment (but there are still obligations). That's how societies work.

Ancient Spartans killed the newborns that were not healthy. Who were they slaves to? Noone, it was their culture. In WW2, some european armies (don't know about all) executed the soldiers who did not want to fight. But those were not slaves, they were soldiers.

I have been conscripted myself, btw. The alternative was much milder than an execution, but does it matter? It was part of my obligations towards my country, and the alternative was some form of punishment.

The difference between men and women in Caeser's Legion, and what makes the women slaves, is that the women are not given any route to participate in the culture in any manner that they (the women) would find satisfactory.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

The difference between men and women in Caeser's Legion, and what makes the women slaves, is that the women are not given any route to participate in the culture in any manner that they (the women) would find satisfactory.

The women as a collective entity cannot participate in a manner which they deem satisfactory just as the men as a collective entity cannot. It is simply a matter of biology and the natural division of labor, not ">muh sexism".

 

[JDR13]

Wtf are you people talking about? All women should be slaves, period.

 

[Egosphere]

And what's the difference between being a slave and being a soldier against your will? The former is forced to work against her will, the latter is forced to fight against his will. I'd wager that the life expectancy of men in the legion is shorter than the women's. In Rome, I think, life expectancy was 23/25 respectively.

People in societies have rights and obligations. When they fail to meet their obligations, punishment follows. When they meet their obligations, there is no punishment (but there are still obligations). That's how societies work.

Ancient Spartans killed the newborns that were not healthy. Who were they slaves to? Noone, it was their culture. In WW2, some european armies (don't know about all) executed the soldiers who did not want to fight. But those were not slaves, they were soldiers.

I have been conscripted myself, btw. The alternative was much milder than an execution, but does it matter? It was part of my obligations towards my country, and the alternative was some form of punishment.

The difference between men and women in Caeser's Legion, and what makes the women slaves, is that the women are not given any route to participate in the culture in any manner that they (the women) would find satisfactory.

Yes, but Spartans killed their own children. European armies killed their own soldiers. That's an important point. Most of the legion's army isn't their own people - they're men who have been forced into military servitude at gunpoint from other societies and tribes. So your examples regarding 'obligations' does not hold. You might be living a quiet life as a pastoralist on some mountain when the legion sweeps across, gives you a rifle and sends you to die against the NCR. You don't have any obligation to serve them, but you serve them all the same because the alternative is crucifixion or worse. That's not to mention that the legion practices decimation, so you're at the mercy of chance from day 1. Women are at least given the chance to live, as long as they comply with the regime. Men, however, are expected to die for the regime, irrespective of their own wishes. The only reason that men appear better off is because the legion exterminates men who do not serve its interests.

 

[Dr Skeleton]

fantadomat,

let's all take a second to ponder how goofy the situation with Boone's woman being sold to slavery by a rando is lmao, complete with proof of purchase

I really liked that story. The Seller functions within a relatively liberal system, but does not believe in the system's core values. "Those values are not there for ME, they are there for EVERYBODY ELSE". Very interesting and very realistic.

It is goofy because the sole reason the seller kept the proof of purchase was so that the player could find it, instead of having to figure it out from clues or talking to people. And since when the Legion buys their slaves, slave trade was a Fallout 2 thing, the Legion gets slaves by capturing them or assimilating conquered tribes. And they write invoices too?

 

[Trashos]

fantadomat, I have discussed previously that the apparent misogynism portrayed in the game has nothing to do with the core Legion system, it was totally unnecessary, bad world building, not roman-like, an inconsistent gameplay device when the PC is female, and I believe it was done on purpose to undermine Caesar's system. Very disappointing moment in a favorite game with otherwise impressive world building.

not ">muh sexism"

There are even jokes about the Legionaries' sexuality in the game, in the form of sexy underwear placed in the rooms of the higherups. It looks like it was indeed "muh sexism".

Women are at least given the chance to live, as long as they comply with the regime. Men, however, are expected to die for the regime, irrespective of their own wishes. The only reason that men appear better off is because the legion exterminates men who do not serve its interests.

That's not how it works. There are men happy being Legionaries. We meet several in the game. We meet no women who are happy being with the Legion. All it would have taken is one, or a reference to one, and there is nothing. It does not look like an accident.

Dr Skeleton, if I feared that the Legion might show up at my doorstep any day now, I would have asked for proof that I have collaborated with them myself.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

not ">muh sexism"

There are even jokes about the Legionaries' sexuality in the game, in the form of sexy underwear placed in the rooms of the higherups. It looks like it was indeed "muh sexism".

Women are at least given the chance to live, as long as they comply with the regime. Men, however, are expected to die for the regime, irrespective of their own wishes. The only reason that men appear better off is because the legion exterminates men who do not serve its interests.

That's not how it works. There are men happy being Legionaries. We meet several in the game. We meet no women who are happy being with the Legion. All it would have taken is one, or a reference to one, and there is nothing. It does not look like an accident.

Sexism exists as part of the culture which naturally develops based on the system implemented by Caesar, but it is not its cause. That was beyond my point, though; the thing being that neither men nor women are assigned to duties which can be collectively defined as being "satisfactory" by either group, so if the system is shitty for those under it - it is so for all individuals, regardless of sex.

On your second point I agree, namely that the representation of the Legion leaves much to be desired on the part of the developers.

 

[fantadomat]

The difference between men and women in Caeser's Legion, and what makes the women slaves, is that the women are not given any route to participate in the culture in any manner that they (the women) would find satisfactory.

No,they do have a support role,as i said technically all of them,men and women are slaves to the legion. Women not going to war doesn't mean they were not part of the legion or that they are not slaves. They are responsible for most other thing outside of fighting. They do play roles such as priests,healers,cooks,making and raising kids etc etc. Why are you keep on talking shit without even trying to read on the lore???

 

[fantadomat]

not ">muh sexism"

There are even jokes about the Legionaries' sexuality in the game, in the form of sexy underwear placed in the rooms of the higherups. It looks like it was indeed "muh sexism".

Women are at least given the chance to live, as long as they comply with the regime. Men, however, are expected to die for the regime, irrespective of their own wishes. The only reason that men appear better off is because the legion exterminates men who do not serve its interests.

That's not how it works. There are men happy being Legionaries. We meet several in the game. We meet no women who are happy being with the Legion. All it would have taken is one, or a reference to one, and there is nothing. It does not look like an accident.

Sexism exists as part of the culture which naturally develops based on the system implemented by Caesar, but it is not its cause. That was beyond my point, though; the thing being that neither men nor women are assigned to duties which can be collectively defined as being "satisfactory" by either group, so if the system is shitty for those under it - it is so for all individuals, regardless of sex.

On your second point I agree, namely that the representation of the Legion leaves much to be desired on the part of the developers.

Hahahahaha nice new name you game me there mate,tho it is pretty long