Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

Discussion in 'inXile Entertainment' started by Florian Gheorghe, Feb 28, 2017.

  1. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,680
    Location:
    California
    IMO, this is the least of the complaints one could lodge at Numenera as a system. As I mentioned somewhere back earlier in this thread, the bigger problem is that it's a quasi-narrativist design that depends on the DM to make the mechanical rules interesting.

    There was actually some very admirable loyalty to the setting. Somewhat insanely so, as when an obvious typo in the description of marteling whales became a diktat in my handling of the whale Mere. It's one of my favorite absurdities -- the description says "The largest marteling ever recorded was more than 300 feet (46 m) long from head to its multi-finned tail." AFAIK, Numenera doesn't have a 6.5 feet per meter conversion rate, but if it does, that's about as good an ALLCAPS as you're going to get. But better yet, "Cities of all sorts grow on the backs of martelings." As I pointed out to my handler, nuclear submarines are typically longer than the longest marteling (per this description) and can barely fit 130 people. The Titanic was three times as long, and carried 3,000 (no city, that). But no, I was bound to the measurements. :) I admire that Vhailorian commitment.

    It's a great scene, but you left out my favorite detail, was that Severian kills the engrafted head with a punch to the face that the body doesn't block because even though the conscious mind of the engrafted head controls the body, the autonomic reactions still belong to the original head. Wonderful touch.

    No one was trying to troll you, unless I complete misread people's attitudes. I think there was a tremendous commitment to having a good setting and a good plot, and to have payoff behind the walls of text. Doesn't change the outcome.

    No, it's not a big inspiration to me, although I adore the books and Wolfe. A much stronger influence to me within TTON was Viriconium. And Vance is a much bigger overall influence on me that Wolfe. I'm not good enough to be Wolfe; I'm not good enough to be Vance or Harrison, either, but when you shoot at those targets and miss, it's not as catastrophic.
     
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,680
    Location:
    California
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that my computer couldn't run the game at more than a few frames per second, at best, though I could've upgrade my computer. I don't really play games much anymore these days. And, if anything, my having worked on the game was a minus, not a plus: for one, I knew all of the surprises in the plot; for another, it is impossible for me to look at something I created (other than my children) and not focus on the flaws.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. BING XI LAO Magister

    BING XI LAO
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    1,205
    Location:
    Rhodesia
    It's quibbling, but Typhon does block, being faster and stronger than Severian - but he reflexively protects his own face, not Piaton's. Severian anticipated that and therefore punched Piaton's head instead of Typhon's. But maybe you understood that anyway and I misunderstood.
     
    ^ Top  
  4. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,680
    Location:
    California
    Ah, did I get it backwards? The engrafted head makes the body block the engrafted head, so the body's head gets hit and killed and the body dies? It's been over 20 years since I read it. Shame that I should forget the very detail I purported to like so much...
     
    ^ Top  
  5. Kem0sabe Arcane

    Kem0sabe
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2011
    Messages:
    10,704
    Location:
    The Bosom of the Holy Spirit
    The most accurate description of this shit is: "limp dick writers trying to group masturbate like John lenon and Paul McCartney but without the imagination necessary to do it without watching porn"
     
    • Bad Spelling Bad Spelling x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • rolleyes rolleyes x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. BING XI LAO Magister

    BING XI LAO
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    1,205
    Location:
    Rhodesia
    Yeah, Typhon chooses to block, but he quite understandably protects his own head, not Piaton's; Severian sees this coming and kills them by striking Piaton's head not Typhon's. But either version is very cool, for much the same reasons.
     
    ^ Top  
  7. Swigen Savant

    Swigen
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2018
    Messages:
    943
    But you both left out my favorite part which is Typhon “nursing his erection” whilst conversing with Severian.
     
    • Excited! Excited! x 1
    ^ Top  
  8. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,680
    Location:
    California
    Well, the meaning actually flips -- in some ways, it's about the elite who in their self-serving arrogance and greed for power ultimately leave themselves defenseless.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  9. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,680
    Location:
    California
    And with that, Swigen and Kem0sabe unite the strands that were threatening to fray in this thread. :)
     
    ^ Top  
  10. Chippy Prophet

    Chippy
    Joined:
    May 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,870
    I still haven't played this despite backing it for a considerable amount. I'm afraid playing it might damage my soul.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Despair Despair x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. BEvers I'm forever blowing

    BEvers
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2018
    Messages:
    805
    Most likely it's just going to bore you.
     
    • Yes Yes x 1
    • When words are not enough When words are not enough x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. BING XI LAO Magister

    BING XI LAO
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    1,205
    Location:
    Rhodesia
    :despair: I am gradually realising what a vulgar person I am. This symbolism didn't occur to me at all - and I found the fifth book, where all the theological/cosmological themes take centre stage, relatively boring.
     
    • Despair Despair x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. Mikeal Liturgist

    Mikeal
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,297
    Location:
    Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
    The biggest problem with Numa-Numa plot is lack of surprise. Aligern and Callistage plot dump you at the beginning and for the bigger part there is nothing new to learn. I would prefer Rhin to be first companion. Both Valley of the Fallen Heroes and Castoff Sanctuay were short and meaningless and ungly and unimaginatice as hell (well at least Dead Gate Cult quest was pretty good, I also expected CS to be full blown hub not something where I crash for 15 minutes). And finally Sorrow should be something more than
    Show Spoiler
    ancient guarding mechanism
    , something like living personification of universe reaction to Tides abusement by daddy god and his kiddies. There also should be more Tides mechanics for MC in the game, something like pigments in The Void or souls in MOTB. Hero usage of Tides powers could direct plot and Sorrow behavior, and change monster's stats and possible endings.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    ^ Top  
  14. UnknownBro Savant

    UnknownBro
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Messages:
    373
    This game is shit. </Thread>
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. Life of the Party Arcane

    Life of the Party
    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    Messages:
    2,581
    Typhon was a monarch, not an Autarch. The first Autarch was Ymar.

     
    • I found this text to be too long and as such I didn't read it I found this text to be too long and as such I didn't read it x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. Mr. Hiver Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Mr. Hiver
    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    Messages:
    705
    First, sadly its the result of those devs and whoever was "leading them" being convinced that precisely such approach is great as it creates a "mysterious setting with a lot of mysteries and ancient secrets and awesome things that are...err... mysterious!"
    Which is the main schtick Numenera pnp setting uses to simply have any fucking thing you want or could ever imagine as a part of it. Its the "everything x everything" setting by itself, which of course only results in making it a nonsensical mess.

    Secondly, the lead director was fired midway through for reasons unknown and replaced by a company drone. He was a kind of a guy who maybe could have kept it all coherent at least to some extent. That version was more or less scuttled, with probably some parts stapled into the new version and we got the result.

    And of course, resources from kickstarter were diverted into other inxile games.


    Dense and impenetrable are descriptors only most dense players could use for it.

    It was cheap, nonsensical, badly written and designed incoherent mess. There were some instances of things that looked interesting here and there, but that never really went anywhere except into that overall incoherent mess.
    It started with one of the worst intros in history of gaming and pretty much continued like that.
     
    ^ Top  
  17. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite

    Roguey
    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    26,815
    We know why he left, he was unwilling to compromise on the original vision. Fargo was unwilling to fund it.
     
    ^ Top  
  18. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    12,918
    Trying to recreate a cult classic that sold poorly is a pretty bad business decision tbh. The odds of actually measuring up to what made it a cult classic are low, and the audience is already pretty small. Sometimes it's better to just leave things as they are.
     
    ^ Top  
  19. Mikeal Liturgist

    Mikeal
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,297
    Location:
    Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
    Hwat was original vision?
     
    • Bad Spelling Bad Spelling x 2
    ^ Top  
  20. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite

    Roguey
    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    26,815
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
    ^ Top  
  21. Mr. Hiver Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Mr. Hiver
    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    Messages:
    705
    Is that all you have on it?

    I dont see anything there that specifically reveals Kevin was "unwilling to compromise on the original vision which was too expensive for Fargo".
    I do see nonsense that turned a more or less coherent design into a explosive vomit mess.

    Just like i assumed it was.
    See, that start of the game makes sense, the one we got - you fucking fall out of the orbit and drop right onto that "resonance chamber" ... from orbit.
    In one of the most boring areas of the game, where you get torrent of exposition - instead of the Bloom, which was a simulacrum of Sigil.

    Secondly,
    See... if you wanted the player to stop and explore and get to know an area - then you need a 200-300 hour game.
    When you bam do one thing and then bam do another - you dont.

    Not to mention how hilarious that last sentence looks in hindsight. Concise! Ahahaha.

    Seems to me its far more probable Kevin was ousted by Colin and Heine and their awesome vision - which was fitting Fargo as he thought he can cut corners and divert money into other games too.
    While they and the new lead cut up what they had and rewrite it into ... shit. Or it was just Fargo cutting corners and the others just... turned their heads away.

    Whats least probable is that someone like Kevin Saunders couldnt calculate the costs of content compared to what they had available.
    Even a dumbass like Infinitron got that right, although of course he assumed completely opposite of logical conclusion. And he got rewarded for his services justly later on. That was hilarious btw.

    If anything needed to be cut it was Sagus cliffs, while any interesting characters and quests could have been transfered to the Bloom and an experienced dev like Kevin couldnt have had any problem seeing that.
    The other mentioned characters and stuff that were cut out, thats just the normal stuff in game design and happens in every game. Nothing special there.

    - Except the Oasis and Ossiphigin which were kickstarter goals.
    Atleast one should have survived in some form.

    - And lets not forget that W2 was suddenly extended into double the originally planed size - mid way through development.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
    ^ Top  
  22. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite

    Roguey
    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    26,815
    It's that combined with
    https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10604
    Alongside https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...ith-monty-markland.120041/page-5#post-5451016
     
    ^ Top  
  23. Mr. Hiver Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Mr. Hiver
    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    Messages:
    705
    Yeah, tickle me so i laugh more.
    Brian says.

    And after all those "cuts" he ended up in "word count" way above any sane expectations and several times over scope. So neither the cuts or firing Kevin achieved anything. Not that word count alone means anything. Which this game painfully proves.
    Yeah, he had to change plans. Couldnt afford it. Indeed.

    None of it really points to anything that would make Kevin somehow a bad manager who ruined it all.

    As for Markland epic thread, ive enjoyed that previously but cant access it now so if there is anything specific youll need to quote it for me. - I mean, i dont remember anything Monty said that would support that nonsense about Kevin, and what i do kind of hazily remember was aimed at higher management and various sycophants in the company.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
    ^ Top  
  24. daveyarsegallant Learned

    daveyarsegallant
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2019
    Messages:
    295
    Location:
    Niggeria
    MRY pretty much hits the nail on the head. The world overall feels flat, its weirdness laid on a backdrop of more weirdness that just leaves the player saying "OK, whatever you say fam." The mechanics of the game also reinforce this, the game gets progressively easier the further you play into it, the perks that you get allows that the protag to literally effortlessly succeed in challenges. There is really no sense of mystery or danger present in Torment.
     
    ^ Top  
  25. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    12,918
    not exactly like planescape felt any less weird :M
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • retadred retadred x 1
    • what? what? x 1
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)