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why most don't CRPGs have only autosaves

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
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Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
People should be free to savescum, if they want. Forcing everyone on ironman isn't the solution
It isn't (or more accurately isn't the only one), but that's because smarter options are possible.

Just look at the mods about KC:D's saviour schnapps, and how quickly they sprang up.
With mod, like with cheat code, you know that you are overriding the way game is meant to be played.

The real solution to savescumming is to do as Disco Elysium did: Have the game provide people with just as much content and entertainment on a failure as it does on a success. Then people won't want to savescum.
That only works if either:
  • Stakes are low and you can afford bumbling around.
  • The game provides as much entertainment from a full playthrough as from an early aborted one, which only works out if this amount is null.
 

Old Hans

Arcane
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Messages
1,476
most C&C in CRPGs just don't work as intended like in like PF or DoS, where a decision could be rewritten by save-scumming, which is destroying the concept of consequence, why not just make the games have only autosave like in outward, but used less generally and more elegantly?
greek philosophers were trying to tackle that question thousands of years ago. It is one of the greatest mysteries of mankind
 

Saduj

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,552
I like to be able to save whenever I want for my own convenience. I shouldn’t have to spend extra time in a game because of restricted saves when I have other stuff to do.

I don’t care how many times anyone else saves and reloads.

And I really don’t care that there are people who hate save scumming but lack the self control to not do it.
 

Takamori

Learned
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Messages
878
The that I see with a system like this is that you have to reduce the time to finish it, because depending on how long is the game you might end up making people giving up.
Oh played 90+ hours to get a shit ending great,now time to replay again.
 

Xamenos

Magister
Patron
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
1,256
Pathfinder: Wrath
It isn't (or more accurately isn't the only one), but that's because smarter options are possible
tl;dr. We're talking about the OP's suggestion here, dredging decade-old posts of yours isn't gonna help. Explain your point or shut up about it.

With mod, like with cheat code, you know that you are overriding the way game is meant to be played
That is precisely my point. People will go to great lengths to savescum if they want to savescum. What exactly is gained by forbidding them the option? Why do you want to dictate how they play their game? Is your willpower that low that you can't resist the temptation of savescumming at all, and need to have the option taken away from you entirely? Like an alcoholic with his drinks?

  • Stakes are low and you can afford bumbling around.
  • The game provides as much entertainment from a full playthrough as from an early aborted one, which only works out if this amount is null.
Thinking like you do, that the only possible result of failed rolls is an early aborted playthrough, is exactly why savescumming exists. It might be too difficult for you to wrap your head around it, but maybe consider the possibility of failure states that DON'T end the playthrough early? Working around failed rolls and working with the party to provide alternatives has been working for PnP RPGs for literal decades. A computer game can never offer the depth of alternatives that a human DM can, of course, but there is no reason at all to offer nothing but simple Pass/Fail checks. No reason other than laziness or lack of creativity.
 
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Gargaune

Magister
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,206
People should be free to savescum, if they want. Forcing everyone on ironman isn't the solution, they'll find another way. Just look at the mods about KC:D's saviour schnapps, and how quickly they sprang up.
Amen. The save mod went on my copy of KCD like ten minutes after I finished the install.exe minigame. If I ruin my experience by savescumming, I've only myself to blame. If the devs ruin my experience by saveblocking me, well...

 

Gerrard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
12,045
People should be free to savescum, if they want. Forcing everyone on ironman isn't the solution, they'll find another way. Just look at the mods about KC: D's saviour schnapps, and how quickly they sprang up.

The real solution to savescumming is to do as Disco Elysium did: Have the game provide people with just as much content and entertainment on a failure as it does on a success. Then people won't want to savescum.
The real solution is the way Witcher did it: you don't see the full consequences of your choice until much later.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
13,061
Some might say have the cheat option handy at all times as well. Bored of wimpy character GODIFY HIM! Or WUSSIFY HIM! Eh... dun care what others do. Did you have fun? No? Yes? Meh?
 

Ontopoly

Disco Hitler
Joined
Jan 28, 2020
Messages
2,993
Location
Fairy land
People should be free to savescum, if they want. Forcing everyone on ironman isn't the solution, they'll find another way. Just look at the mods about KC: D's saviour schnapps, and how quickly they sprang up.

The real solution to savescumming is to do as Disco Elysium did: Have the game provide people with just as much content and entertainment on a failure as it does on a success. Then people won't want to savescum.
Most players are idiots and are more than willing to ruin the game for themselves. They can't be trusted to make their own decisions, or control their own fun. If you gave most players a sword that made the whole game trivial and easy most people would still use it then complain that the game is too easy. Developers need to hold the gamers accountable and I would be interested in more developers experimenting with things like that. People have fond memories of challenges and adversity in video games but will still do everything they possibly can to remove it from the game for themselves. How many people just copy op builds from online? Gamers don't know what they want. It's the developer's responsibility to tell us what we want.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
We've had this debate on here a hundred times and I'll repeat what I always say: saving anywhere has been part of my PC gaming life since I started in 1993 and you're not gonna take it away from me now. Especially since I have a family and other obligations now that I never had then, and am halfway through my optimistic time on this earth. Don't waste my motherfucking time indeed.

However I do think there are ways to avoid save scumming decisions and things like that. One is the obvious New Vegas method, where dialog choices and such are a straight stat requirement, so no reload will help you unless you want to go completely out of the mission/dialog and come back later. For dice roll stuff someone on here mentioned in the Kingmaker thread that you could do all those rolls ahead of time when entering the dungeon, making it so save scumming would require starting the entire dungeon over again. In essence, there are tons of ways to disincentivize save scumming without removing an adult's ability to save anywhere.
 

Gastrick

Cipher
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Messages
1,709
It wouldn't work with all games. Save states are a way to make a hard game easier to compensate for killing you so quickly.
Also, some are easy enough where permadeath is better than autosaves since it adds tension.
 

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