Vapourware Pen and paper RPG mechanic missing in CRPGs

[samuraigaiden]

I was listening to the Geek’s Guide to the Galaxy podcast episode where they interviewed Jon Petersen, the author of a book about the history of traditional RPGs called The Elusive Shift.

At some point they talk about Gary Gygax admitting on occasions to rolling the dice just to make noise. Meaning, while DMing he would “steer” the RNG in the direction he wanted take the scenario, disregarding the numbers game in favor of the experience.

The author commented that in the 70s legit debates were had about how the game should be played. Should people be allowed to LARP their characters and make silly voices or not? Should the rules be enforced at all times? Stuff like this.

In video games, we usually see a debate between RNG vs no RNG, but I don’t recall examples of games where RNG is used in this particular way.

The closest application in games I can think of is unkillable enemies, but that is gaming the system to cock block the player.

Diablo style games probably manipulate the loot drop RNG continually like some evil social experiment, and that might be closer to the PNP RPG example because both aim to keep players engaged, albeit in very different ways.

TLDR: rigged dice rolls

 

[lukaszek]

rng games are rigged from the start

 

[Testownia]

I was listening to the Geek’s Guide to the Galaxy podcast episode where they interviewed Jon Petersen, the author of a book about the history of traditional RPGs called The Elusive Shift.

At some point they talk about Gary Gygax admitting on occasions to rolling the dice just to make noise. Meaning, while DMing he would “steer” the RNG in the direction he wanted take the scenario, disregarding the numbers game in favor of the experience.

The author commented that in the 70s legit debates were had about how the game should be played. Should people be allowed to LARP their characters and make silly voices or not? Should the rules be enforced at all times? Stuff like this.

In video games, we usually see a debate between RNG vs no RNG, but I don’t recall examples of games where RNG is used in this particular way.

The closest application in games I can think of is unkillable enemies, but that is gaming the system to cock block the player.

Diablo style games probably manipulate the loot drop RNG continually like some evil social experiment, and that might be closer to the PNP RPG example because both aim to keep players engaged, albeit in very different ways.

TLDR: rigged dice rolls

Isn't this similar to the "loaded dice" mechanic that Larian has introduced in Baldur's Gate III?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Randomly rolling the dice behind the screen is a fun way to make the players nervous. Make sure you start writing something afterwards.

with regards to the topic: Yes, it has always been something DMs do. Don't overdo it. If the players are acting stupid, they deserve their fate. If they're getting an unlucky string of dicerolls, maybe nudge fate a bit.
And yes, RPGs already do it. Not just RPGs, either. e.g., XCOM fudges the RNG in your favor after consecutive misses, and does the opposite to aliens after consecutive hits. The odds of you hitting/being missed also improve with each team member you lose(this is an example of good design, makes the player feel like they snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.)

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Isn't this similar to the "loaded dice" mechanic that Larian has introduced in Baldur's Gate III?

Completely separate thing, that's essentially just a cheat for people who don't like the RNG nature of D&D.

 

[V_K]

Dungeon of Naheulbeuk has a fun mechanic where each time the RNG fails you in some way (you get hit or your attack misses etc.), a gauge increases, which at certain thresholds allows you to perform certain miracles like raising a KOed character etc.

 

[Daemongar]

Randomly rolling the dice behind the screen is a fun way to make the players nervous. Make sure you start writing something afterwards.

This and the random countdown "10... 9... 8... what do you do? 7... 6..." is like the staple of DM'ing (for good or bad.)

RPG games may use RNG - but every game has the unavoidable capture, the knockout where everything goes black, the unwinnable situation. Every game is a mixture of RNG and enforced situations that nudge the story along. Do whatever you want, Imoen is going to that Sorcerer Tower thing. That Oblivion gate is opening in Kvatch. You may be awe inspired in both games and wonder "What did I do wrong?" But eventually you realize on the 3rd or 4th playthrough that it was the folks who set up the game that put you in this spot, not your crappy planning.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

It's been awhile, but I believe Hard West does this declaratively. The more your character gets missed by enemy attacks, their luck score depletes and increases the probability of a hit. The PC's attacks are subject to similar variables. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[Cross]

It doesn't quite fit what you're talking about, but Fallout 1 and 2 and Arcanum went beyond what other non-PnP RPGs do with RNG (bad roll = missing your attack) and implemented some rather amusing critical failures, like accidentally dropping your weapon or injuring yourself.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Rigged dice was the first step to the overarching storyfaggotry. Because when you push aside gameplay for "story progression" reasons - yeah, sure

 

[Bruma Hobo]

There's nothing wrong with making players think dice are rolling when nothing's actually happening, and that's not necessarily about railroading them.

CRPGs have already done that. Ultima IV for example, by not making obvious which exact actions were actually being tracked, made players afraid of nonexistent transgressions and thus paranoid of a big brother/virtual dungeon master, and role-play as do-gooders beyond of what was strictly necessary (and even spread myths about how the karma system works, many for example still believe that killing retreating enemies hits the honor score, when there's nothing like that in the code). It's interesting how you don't have to program complex game mechanics if you can make players believe in them.

 

[CanadianCorndog]

To maintain interest, you need contrast. Something good, then something bad, then something good, then something bad, etc. If there is no contrast, it gets boring fast.

For example, if a story has a happy ending, the character starts out unhappy and in a bad situation. Situations get progressively better then worse then better etc. Eventually, it becomes life or death for it to matter.

Changing the rules and making up new rules is an important part of play. You'll see kids do this naturally when they are playing games. If a game is not fun or broken, make it more fun.

 

[AscendedFlames]

I was under the impression that you were never really supposed to LARP or play dress up back then, rather you were supposed to be you in that world and use deductive logic and your wits to survive. I'm not in favor of fudging dice, to either make the experience good or bad. Sometimes in life you luck out and you're born the son of a millionaire, sometimes you get hit with RNG and you're born in a starving African town. If you got dealt wrong, tough luck. Stories happen in real time based off of the actions that you take, whether you live or die it's also part of that story, following some DM's novel is not my idea of D&D.

I'd say a mechanic that is missing and one that is probably, most likely not going to be implemented in cRPGs is using your environment against your enemies. And I'm not talking about a well placed red barrel that the enemies conveniently walk besides, or an obvious crack at some foundation that you can shoot so the falling rocks can crush the bandits. I'm talking about a dynamic system where you can use your entire environment. Making enemies trip from a well placed trap/log that you happen to come across, luring a bear with honey to fight, fainting/using empathy as you're losing so your enemy can lower his guard and then kill him (this one would probably require some thought to implement), etc.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I was under the impression that you were never really supposed to LARP or play dress up back then, rather you were supposed to be you in that world and use deductive logic and your wits to survive. I'm not in favor of fudging dice, to either make the experience good or bad. Sometimes in life you luck out and you're born the son of a millionaire, sometimes you get hit with RNG and you're born in a starving African town. If you got dealt wrong, tough luck. Stories happen in real time based off of the actions that you take, whether you live or die it's also part of that story, following some DM's novel is not my idea of D&D.

People are really getting their wargaming and RPGs mixed up.

 

[KateMicucci]

For a long time, computer RPGs weren't great at simulating the tabletop RPG experience of playing with a party of cringe, meme-spouting retards who constantly derail the game with real-life drama, but they've been getting much better at it.

 

[samuraigaiden]

I was under the impression that you were never really supposed to LARP or play dress up back then

In the podcast they mention there was a strong push against LARPing in some circles .

 

[Excommunicator]

Everything is fair game if it makes it more fun

 

[grimer]

Ultima IV for example, by not making obvious which exact actions were actually being tracked, made players afraid of nonexistent transgressions and thus paranoid of a big brother/virtual dungeon master, and role-play as do-gooders beyond of what was strictly necessary (and even spread myths about how the karma system works, many for example still believe that killing retreating enemies hits the honor score, when there's nothing like that in the code). It's interesting how you don't have to program complex game mechanics if you can make players believe in them.

uhuh..excusing shallow mechanics in favor of "immershun". interesting how ultima is praised for the same design philosophy bethesda is denigrated for. by larpers for larpers

 

[Butter]

Ultima IV for example, by not making obvious which exact actions were actually being tracked, made players afraid of nonexistent transgressions and thus paranoid of a big brother/virtual dungeon master, and role-play as do-gooders beyond of what was strictly necessary (and even spread myths about how the karma system works, many for example still believe that killing retreating enemies hits the honor score, when there's nothing like that in the code). It's interesting how you don't have to program complex game mechanics if you can make players believe in them.

uhuh..excusing shallow mechanics in favor of "immershun". interesting how ultima is praised for the same design philosophy bethesda is denigrated for. by larpers for larpers

There's a difference between obscure mechanics and shallow mechanics. Ultima IV's obscure mechanics cause players to be extra moral because they don't know where the boundaries are. Bethesda's shallow mechanics cause people to retreat into their own minds like autistic children because the game isn't providing a real experience.

 

[Lilura]

Are people getting proud because they don't know what's going on under the hood in stone age RPGs?

I like to see exactly why shit's getting a new asshole ripped:

 

[Nano]

There's a difference between obscure mechanics and shallow mechanics.

You realize "obscure mechanics" aren't really going to work in the Internet age, right?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

There's a difference between obscure mechanics and shallow mechanics.

You realize "obscure mechanics" aren't really going to work in the Internet age, right?

Not the devs fault if you decide to ruin your experience by reading a fucking guide on the game before even playing it.

 

[Nano]

Not the devs fault if you decide to ruin your experience by reading a fucking guide on the game before even playing it.

And it's not my fault that you choose to hamper yourself for the sake of your immersion.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Not the devs fault if you decide to ruin your experience by reading a fucking guide on the game before even playing it.

And it's not my fault that you choose to hamper yourself for the sake of your immersion.

Designing a game around meta knowledge is cancer.

 

[Lilura]

"obscure mechanics"

Obscure would still indicate that the mechanic exists. But the other guy said no code exists for the mechanic = LARPing based on delusion.