Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Red Dead Redemption 2 - now available on PC

Beowulf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
1,967
But the story is so disconnected from the actual gameplay - why would the gang members care about Dutch killing some woman, or why would it even make the gang's situation worse in the first place, if you kill thousands of people during every other mission.
 

Justicar

Dead game
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
4,443
Location
Afghanistan
But the story is so disconnected from the actual gameplay - why would the gang members care about Dutch killing some woman, or why would it even make the gang's situation worse in the first place, if you kill thousands of people during every other mission.
Yep you genocide entire towns but some random whore in Blackwater was a big deal XD. When you free Micah the obvious rat you kill entire town and mr not evil Micah kills a civilian family while Arturd cuck Morgan watches in silence :lol:
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,693
I looked at RDR2 at youtube, and seen a lot of videos of hogtying barefoot women. Is it major play of gameplay, or is story standard obnoxious screw up?
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,575
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
But the story is so disconnected from the actual gameplay - why would the gang members care about Dutch killing some woman, or why would it even make the gang's situation worse in the first place, if you kill thousands of people during every other mission.
I wish I could remember who it was, I was reading an interview with a game designer who said something like, "Yeah, any time we make a new game the first question we always ask is, 'So in this story, why is the protagonist the worst mass murderer of all time, and why is it not a problem?'" So disappointing when companies like Rockstar don't even bother trying to spin it at all, it's just what you're doing all the time.
 

mogwaimon

Magister
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
1,079
well that's sort of the problem with modern Rockstar is they want to tell these sprawling artistic tales and express their social commentaries in a more direct way than they used to back in the PS2 GTA era but they also don't want to alter the original formula that got them to where they are today too much. I mean the PS2 GTAs didn't try very hard to reconcile the differences between the story and the core gameplay and it worked out, but the protagonists weren't bitching about how bad the criminal life is and how they want to just leave it behind and live a normal life either. Well, except maybe CJ but still. either way feels like if they want to tell a movie story then make a movie and not a video game...
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
Patron
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
18,330
Location
Jersey for now
well that's sort of the problem with modern Rockstar is they want to tell these sprawling artistic tales and express their social commentaries in a more direct way than they used to back in the PS2 GTA era but they also don't want to alter the original formula that got them to where they are today too much. I mean the PS2 GTAs didn't try very hard to reconcile the differences between the story and the core gameplay and it worked out, but the protagonists weren't bitching about how bad the criminal life is and how they want to just leave it behind and live a normal life either. Well, except maybe CJ but still. either way feels like if they want to tell a movie story then make a movie and not a video game...

What happened to guys who just wanted to be a gangster in the gang life? What's wrong with that?
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,575
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
If they want to tell a movie story then make a movie and not a video game...
That's loser talk. Plenty of games out there are a good time without mass murder as a required activity. So many devs just have this imprint that killing stuff is the only thing players want to do, and Rockstar never got past 2nd grade as far as narrative design goes.
 

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
5,536
well that's sort of the problem with modern Rockstar is they want to tell these sprawling artistic tales and express their social commentaries in a more direct way than they used to back in the PS2 GTA era but they also don't want to alter the original formula that got them to where they are today too much. I mean the PS2 GTAs didn't try very hard to reconcile the differences between the story and the core gameplay and it worked out, but the protagonists weren't bitching about how bad the criminal life is and how they want to just leave it behind and live a normal life either. Well, except maybe CJ but still. either way feels like if they want to tell a movie story then make a movie and not a video game...
It's why I've been saying for years that the protagonist in a Rockstar game should be a man of few words (who speaks when he needs to) and little facial expression, a blank slate whose emotions or feelings towards a particular thing are often unknown. Much like the hitman protagonist of Le Samouraï. Giving them too much character always opens up way too many holes in the game-story logic.

Le-Samoura-1967-Jean-Pierre-Melville-Criterion-BD-mkv-snapshot-00-26-11-195.jpg
 

mogwaimon

Magister
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
1,079
well that's sort of the problem with modern Rockstar is they want to tell these sprawling artistic tales and express their social commentaries in a more direct way than they used to back in the PS2 GTA era but they also don't want to alter the original formula that got them to where they are today too much. I mean the PS2 GTAs didn't try very hard to reconcile the differences between the story and the core gameplay and it worked out, but the protagonists weren't bitching about how bad the criminal life is and how they want to just leave it behind and live a normal life either. Well, except maybe CJ but still. either way feels like if they want to tell a movie story then make a movie and not a video game...

What happened to guys who just wanted to be a gangster in the gang life? What's wrong with that?

absolutely nothin's wrong with it. Tommy Vercetti is still one of the best GTA protagonists to this date for that reason and the Saint's Row 2 boss is pretty fun too, though less defined of a character

If they want to tell a movie story then make a movie and not a video game...
That's loser talk. Plenty of games out there are a good time without mass murder as a required activity. So many devs just have this imprint that killing stuff is the only thing players want to do, and Rockstar never got past 2nd grade as far as narrative design goes.

well see, the difference is, obviously, that GTA and RDR are designed around the mass murder while the stories run counter to the game design, as has been stated. this is not an indictment of other genres or the capability of video games as a medium to tell a compelling story, rather that the Houser brothers in particular want to tell that sort of cinematic Hollywood story but either can't or won't take it to Hollywood to make said movie, so they try to both make a violent sandbox and have a high brow cinematic experience and...well, it doesn't always work. Not to say it can't work, the Yakuza series can typically tell a pretty decent action flick story while doing a wide variety of eclectic activities during the main gameplay loop without causing too much narrative dissonance, but the way Rockstar does it...meh. I always thought they should go back to the PS2 GTA school of design after GTAIV so I suppose I'm a bit biased.
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
Patron
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
18,330
Location
Jersey for now
My thing is why do they have these wishy washy guys who are essentially reluctant gangsters as main characters. San Andreas was the start of it I feel, and since then everyone has been a reluctant criminal in some way or another. Tommy Vercetti was the last true gangster of the series.

Think about that. In a series about gangs, violence, and crime, the last guy who was a willing and active participant with intelligence and ruthlessness but still likability and not over-the-top humor was from a game in 2002. 19 years ago. CJ 'we gotta get outta dis game' was the beginning of the decline, and it just went from there. GTA 5 showed three protagonists, and each one of them was lacking in gangsterism.

What happened to the hard core guys who joined up in their mid to late teens and just wanted to do nothing but be a gangster and run rackets?
 

BruceVC

Magister
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
8,043
Location
South Africa, Cape Town
While I haven't played it, I feel like I know enough about it to know that despite Dutch being a sociopathic maniac, he's almost like a cult leader in a way. He's swayed these people with past favorable actions and charisma to the point where they are nearly brainwashed at this point. That's why Arthur struggles so much with defying Dutch, even though to the player is seems like an easy decision.

Correct me if I have this wrong, of course.

you're 100% correct. Arthur and John were raised by him so he's like a father to them and on top of that he's fairly well read, eloquent, and charismatic. He's fostering a cult of personality and while he is obviously full of shit when viewed from the outside and with the knowledge of how RDR1 goes down, from the inside many of his gang likely don't see it that way for a number of reasons which we don't really see in-game. The thing is, we enter the story from the beginning of the 'Decline', as it were, and we don't have the benefit of seeing the gang's past successes up until then, and from the characters reactions to how the Blackwater job went down many of them were upset about Dutch 'killing that woman' as though it was outside of the norm for him to do so, so we can also make an assumption that the maniacal tendencies that Dutch eventually succumbed to were new even to members of his gang that had been with him for decades.

Not to mention Hosea was not only the brains of the group but a calmer voice of reason to keep Dutch in line, and when that influence was removed Dutch went further off the rails in an obvious manner.

with that in mind characterizing Dutch as an 'obvious unlikeable sociopath' and Arthur as a 'Stockholm syndrome pansy' seems like a gross oversimplification, in my opinion. Not that the story of RDR2 was a masterpiece or anything, frankly I had my fun with the game but I think I much preferred RDR1's story and I even think RDR1 tackled the themes of civilization intruding on the Wild West and modern living suffocating those who didn't want to or couldn't adapt to it and all that better than RDR2 did in many respects.

I respect the opinions of people who have played RDR2 and we can have different opinions of the motives of people like Dutch and if the protagonist, like Arthur, is a mass murderer by design....I dont agree with that view

But Dutch and his followers are not just a cult because they are all mostly motivated by survival in the harsh reality of living in those times. So you could argue people blindly followed him but I would say they faced threats, like Pinkertons and Revenue men, and Dutch also always considered how his gang and innocents would survive on a day to day basis

And I dont consider Arthur a "mass murderer " because in my game the only people I killed were people stopping me complete missions necessary for the gang, like freeing Micah
And the gang was necessary for the survival of the greater innocents like the women and children

Of course in all Rockstar games you end up aimlessly killing random people ....thats part of the fun. But you can avoid deaths of innocents if you try hard enough ....Im sure ?
 

BruceVC

Magister
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
8,043
Location
South Africa, Cape Town
I just ignored the story in RDR2 and played it as a cowboy hiking sim.
Wasn't aware people actually cared about the story.
No Rusty thats an inaccurate framing of the importance of the narrative in games like RDR2

Yes its also a fun cowboy game but the narrative ultimately progresses the game in stages and you make decisions on that progression so it does matter and is interesting to people who play Rockstar games :cool:
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
28,370
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
My thing is why do they have these wishy washy guys who are essentially reluctant gangsters as main characters. San Andreas was the start of it I feel, and since then everyone has been a reluctant criminal in some way or another. Tommy Vercetti was the last true gangster of the series.

Think about that. In a series about gangs, violence, and crime, the last guy who was a willing and active participant with intelligence and ruthlessness but still likability and not over-the-top humor was from a game in 2002. 19 years ago. CJ 'we gotta get outta dis game' was the beginning of the decline, and it just went from there. GTA 5 showed three protagonists, and each one of them was lacking in gangsterism.

What happened to the hard core guys who joined up in their mid to late teens and just wanted to do nothing but be a gangster and run rackets?
Yakuza will confuse you so much bro.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,292
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
They should have included this as a mechanic in RDR2:



They even have the groundwork, I think. If I can be an armchair programmer - it shouldn't be much different than the mechanics for spooking horses, only in reverse. You have to spook the bear which is gathering aggression.
 

HoboForEternity

sunset tequila
Patron
Joined
Mar 27, 2016
Messages
9,211
Location
Disco Elysium
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
They should have included this as a mechanic in RDR2:



They even have the groundwork, I think. If I can be an armchair programmer - it shouldn't be much different than the mechanics for spooking horses, only in reverse. You have to spook the bear which is gathering aggression.

that beat looks young. will it work on adult or they will just rolfstomp your ass and shred it into ribbons if you try to intimidate one?
 

Hace El Oso

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Messages
3,187
Location
Bogotá
My thing is why do they have these wishy washy guys who are essentially reluctant gangsters as main characters. San Andreas was the start of it I feel, and since then everyone has been a reluctant criminal in some way or another. Tommy Vercetti was the last true gangster of the series.

Think about that. In a series about gangs, violence, and crime, the last guy who was a willing and active participant with intelligence and ruthlessness but still likability and not over-the-top humor was from a game in 2002. 19 years ago. CJ 'we gotta get outta dis game' was the beginning of the decline, and it just went from there. GTA 5 showed three protagonists, and each one of them was lacking in gangsterism.

What happened to the hard core guys who joined up in their mid to late teens and just wanted to do nothing but be a gangster and run rackets?

The same thing happened with, comically enough, Hitman. It used to be that you’re a killer for hire in an ugly world. Now it’s explicitly spelled out that you’re killing bad people because they’re bad and so it’s ‘ok’. Of course, this trend is visible everywhere.

It’s just another symptom of the accelerating loss of masculine culture and the warrior morality that comes with it.
 

typical user

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
957
They should have included this as a mechanic in RDR2:



They even have the groundwork, I think. If I can be an armchair programmer - it shouldn't be much different than the mechanics for spooking horses, only in reverse. You have to spook the bear which is gathering aggression.


If Grizzly is charging you in the game and you stand still, the bear will scream in your face and walk away. I've tested it, was surprised it worked!
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,292
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
The same thing happened with, comically enough, Hitman. It used to be that you’re a killer for hire in an ugly world. Now it’s explicitly spelled out that you’re killing bad people because they’re bad and so it’s ‘ok’. Of course, this trend is visible everywhere.

It’s just another symptom of the accelerating loss of masculine culture and the warrior morality that comes with it.
Yes! And it bugged me as far back as in Silent Assassin (the second game in the franchise).

that beat looks young. will it work on adult or they will just rolfstomp your ass and shred it into ribbons if you try to intimidate one?
I think it will, as long as the area the bear is in has not been exposed to human presence for a prolonged period of time.

Around the holidays, there was a great multi-part movie on NG Wild, about a NG photographer who went to this island: https://www.google.com/maps/@81.0213384,-72.2778283,402552m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e4 to try to make photos of wolves in their natural environment who have not been in contact with humans. They make a point in the movie that the same photographer had previously worked in Yellowstone but wolves there were very frightened of people because they had been hunted for generations, and by natural selection the more cautious ones had remained.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...arsh-lives-living-on-top-of-the-world-feature

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0QFE-hxgI8

If Grizzly is charging you in the game and you stand still, the bear will scream in your face and walk away. I've tested it, was surprised it worked!
I'll try it but if it kills me, it's on you! :lol:
 

Ivan

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
7,500
Location
California
Reminisce post:
I didn't enjoy much of my time w/RD2, but I will still remember it being of the most gorgeous games I've ever played. Just riding through its open landscapes, with the fantastic audio, was a delight. Disappointed to say that there weren't nearly as many (any?!) tracks that stood out to me during my playthrough like there were in Rd1. The only one I have in my collection is "Red" the ballad.


 
Last edited:

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
5,536
Years ago, sold PS4 version after a few hours of shitty controls and disappointment, bought 5 dollar multiplayer on PC but was always bored with it, deleted it, then bought the full game last Steam sale. Pretentious. Tedious. Garbage combat, animations. Had forgotten, wish I didn't. Thought it would be better with a mouse and keyboard. I mean, it is better this way, but still crappy. The whole time walking and talking I felt deflated, bored. I don't like the characters. Quit as soon as it changed to daylight. Will grind farther, but Rockstar is trash. They don't understand good gameplay or don't care. They have only declined.
 

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
5,536
Still beginning, went slightly out of bounds of the scripted story. "Weather here is harsh. Go back to the camp." Keep going a few more feet. Horse falls over suddenly. "Your horse has died due to the harsh weather conditions."

Might as well not have any free roaming in the first couple of missions and just make it one long event with checkpoints. There's only the one mission marker to go to. Fuck you, Rockstar.
 

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
5,536
They don't know how to tell a story, don't understand westerns. Just exposition dumps about things that happened off screen or in the past in the walking and talking, or riding and talking in this case. It's dull.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom