Morrowind was massive decline and should be considered as such

[S.torch]

Tolkien is good because his works combined animist and pagan mythology with a Catholic creation story and morality. His works were meaningful and deep, magic was mysterious, power was lurid and inherently corrupting, nature was beautiful and alive and under the threat of industrialisation. And what did most people take from this? Erhmagherd swords and orcs and dark lord :OOO Wizard fight big demon monster !!!!!!!!

Very based post. Though I not agree with everything it says, take your well earned brofist.
And by the way, traditional fantasy IS esoteric. Whoever doesn't believe this, is because haven't read it, or worst, it has not understand it.

To the topic of the previous pages, I can say is untrue. I played Oblivion at a very young age, it has certain charm for me for being one of my first RPGs, but is very easy to recognize how its predecessor is vastly superior, specially in terms of setting. Having this or that age doesn't stop you from knowing that.

 

[Wulfric Pinewood]

We all waiting for new TES , let the older titles die peacefully.

 

[Robotigan]

What you dont realize is the approach was different at Bethesda prior to oblivion, when idiot Todd started using algorithms for vegetation and radiant AI for quests (and later in Skyrim algorithms for everything), Morrowind was their last PC game and last hand-crafted game

Bro, Morrowind is the only TES game that doesn't lean on algorithmically generated content. It is the outlier, not the games that come after it. It's much more likely the switch to 3d assets and a new engine was so much of a workload they just didn't have time than an intentional design choice. Bethesda is obviously aiming to create simulative worlds which almost inherently relies on procedural generation. Moreover, game developers employ programmers and speaking as a programmer myself, programmers like implementing and using interesting algorithms. You'll notice many older games, including some of Todd's favorites like Star Control 2, make extensive use of procedural generation because games were much more programmer driven back then. More recently, many more games are led by writers (often writers who couldn't hack it in the film industry and fell into gaming as a backup) and while writers can have some neat story ideas they don't really understand how to take advantage of programmable hardware. Branching stories aren't even unique to games; you can accomplish that through chapter select, a standard feature on any dvd player (I'm not making this up, many "interactive movies" like this were produced).

I guarantee you that if you asked early RPG creators or even tabletop RPG designers (essentially programming on paper) what they envisioned as their ideal RPG given infinite budget and a few decades of technological innovation, they'd describe to you a simulated experience that made heavy use of complex algorithms, procedural generation, and systemic design that give rise to emergent gameplay. Which is probably why Bethesda keeps winning DICE GOTY awards. They're the closest to accomplishing this which impresses their game dev peers. And of course this irritates Codex because this place is like a storycel haven of "went into IT because Computer Science classes are too hard" Dunning-Kruger cope.

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

The world is filled with cliff racers from the start.

While there are level-independent cliffracers that spawn from lv1, often on the coast/near shipwrecks, there are also many spawn areas for cliff racers and other enemies in the open world that don't spawn anything at all at level 1.

 

[Robotigan]

Rough gem >>>> polished turd.[/QUOTE]

This only shows you have no idea why people like Morrowind so much.

I know the exotic, alien setting gets y'all hard. Frankly, it gets me hard too. I love Morrowind's setting, but it's not the only reason I enjoy the game. And some of the other reasons I enjoyed it, chiefly the world sim elements, were improved upon in Oblivion. Sure we realize how clunky they are now because later games refined those systems beyond their awkward teen years, but the game still represents a historically important evolutionary link. Later games can't iterate on those systems if Oblivion doesn't take a bold first step. Now it'd be one thing if Oblivion irreparably turned the series towards generic medieval fantasy, but it didn't. Skyrim pulled back in the other direction and sold better for it. We revisited Solstheim in the Dragonborn DLC. All early hints seem to imply TES6 will take place in Hammerfell. And the game they're releasing this year literally takes place on exotic, alien worlds. There's no reason to lament Oblivion destroyed creative world building at Bethesda because it didn't.

 

[Harthwain]

I know the exotic, alien setting gets y'all hard. Frankly, it gets me hard too. I love Morrowind's setting, but it's not the only reason I enjoy the game. And some of the other reasons I enjoyed it, chiefly the world sim elements, were improved upon in Oblivion.

I already stated the setting wasn't the sole reason I enjoyed Morrowind for. The learning-by-doing leveling system, the giant world free to explore with very few loading screens on the world map, the layered armor system, interesting applications of magic, high visual fidelity... It's all there. Oblivion fucked up most of it: the world was turned into bland generic fantasy despite its potential, the leveling was both absurd and boring (and it was reflected in horrible combat), the magic system was gutted, the sim elements were underwhelming compared to what was promised. There were some minor improvements in some areas, but on the whole I am not willing to defend Oblivion in the slightest.

 

[Robotigan]

I suspect what Codex dislikes about Oblivion has to do with Ken Rolston's design decisions more than anything. Which makes many attempts to explain Oblivion as the start of Bethesda "decline" somewhat incoherent. Rolston left the company after Oblivion.

 

[Butter]

I suspect what Codex dislikes about Oblivion has to do with Ken Rolston's design decisions more than anything. Which makes many attempts to explain Oblivion as the start of Bethesda "decline" somewhat incoherent. Rolston left the company after Oblivion.

You could literally just read what people have posted instead of making assumptions.

 

[Brancaleone]

I guarantee you that if you asked early RPG creators or even tabletop RPG designers (essentially programming on paper) what they envisioned as their ideal RPG given infinite budget and a few decades of technological innovation, they'd [...]

Mind-reading projected into an alternate past. And guaranteed on top of it!

Boy, what times we live in.

 

[Funposter]

I suspect what Codex dislikes about Oblivion has to do with Ken Rolston's design decisions more than anything.

Except Ken deferred to all of Todd's arguments about the game's design during Oblivion's development. It's Todd's game.

 

[Robotigan]

You could literally just read what people have posted instead of making assumptions.

One major reason I detect is frustration with the generic story/setting. That is 100% all Rolston who seems to have a preference for classic fantasy tropes. Other devs have said as much when interviewed.

Everything else seems to be specific features and mechanical design decisions which, let's be honest, Morrowind doesn't exactly nail all of that either. Its combat is frustrating, not just because it's simple and you can miss but because misses have poor feedback. Early gameplay is gimped because it's supposed to simulate a total novice, I get it, but there are still rp-friendly ways to tune challenge progression that make novice-tier gameplay interesting (as any good DM knows). It's an especially big mistake to make so many of your objectives essentially fetch quests when your mobility mechanics kind of suck (until they don't but that comes way later). The economy is wack. There's only two medium armor sets in the base game. Light armor feels like it's missing at least one armor tier between Chitin and Glass. Frankly the only reason some of these issues aren't criticized more is because everyone who still plays the game metagames like hell. I'm not anti-metagaming but good game design should ensure "normal" playthroughs are addressed first.

And despite all of this I still think Morrowind is fantastic because it's novel and its merits outweigh the bad. Most people, including most Morrowind players, feel the same about Oblivion. No game is perfect, much less for games as ambitious as open world RPGs. There will always be flaws to pick apart. But one should at least try to set aside their expectations and enjoy the game on its own terms first. How Codex reviews games is obnoxious because it's so painfully obvious that there's so much politicking going on due to so many regulars on here having hair-trigger egos and delusions of industry influence. That's the only way you get a forum consensus that VTMB is one of the greatest RPGs ever but Oblivion sucks. VTMBs development history is tragic, but the game you want to be there just isn't. You're not fooling anyone.

 

[KateMicucci]

I know the exotic, alien setting gets y'all hard. Frankly, it gets me hard too. I love Morrowind's setting, but it's not the only reason I enjoy the game. And some of the other reasons I enjoyed it, chiefly the world sim elements, were improved upon in Oblivion.

I already stated the setting wasn't the sole reason I enjoyed Morrowind for. The learning-by-doing leveling system, the giant world free to explore with very few loading screens on the world map, the layered armor system, interesting applications of magic, high visual fidelity... It's all there. Oblivion fucked up most of it: the world was turned into bland generic fantasy despite its potential, the leveling was both absurd and boring (and it was reflected in horrible combat), the magic system was gutted, the sim elements were underwhelming compared to what was promised. There were some minor improvements in some areas, but on the whole I am not willing to defend Oblivion in the slightest.

The levelling and magic systems are nearly the same in both. What was "promised" is irrelevant. (Codex usually loves rpgs that don't live up to their ambitions, except oblivion.)

All this talk about how Oblivion is generic fantasy is silly too. What's the major difference in morrowind? Same races, same lore. The immersive setting of morrowind is entirely made by fog and silt strider mating calls.

 

[Modron]

Name five, made in the last twenty years.

Yeah the last one I can think of is Underrail 6 years ago but even then the demand of the casuals was too strong so Styg added a map when it wasn't too terribly complex a system to navigate in the first place. Plus building mental maps is good for the brain.

Edit: Forgot the Friends of Ringo Ishikawa didn't have a map as well but it was a smaller scale world you would run through enough to learn the ins and outs across your playthrough.

 

[Tacgnol]

Name five, made in the last twenty years.

Yeah the last one I can think of is Underrail 6 years ago but even then the demand of the casuals was too strong so Styg added a map when it wasn't too terribly complex a system to navigate in the first place. Plus building mental maps is good for the brain.

I got several friends to play and enjoy underrail solely on Styg adding an automap feature.

I suspect they'd have been fine without it, but they just couldn't stand to play without.

I think it was probably a smart economic decision for him to add it regardless of whether it was needed or not.

 

[Jaedar]

All this talk about how Oblivion is generic fantasy is silly too. What's the major difference in morrowind? Same races, same lore. The immersive setting of morrowind is entirely made by fog and silt strider mating calls.

Vvardenfell is an active volcano, being fought over (mostly politically) by an occupying force, 3 noble houses, a quadrumvirate of gods as well as the native islanders. None of said groups is truly good, and only one is truly evil. Each group has its own approach to architecture, from the stone bricks of the empire to the crab shells of the redorans.

Cyrodiil is verdant grasslands and forests, with a unified medieval european style to everything that you've seen 100 times before but with all the detail sanded off. It's about the good guys (army, emperor, police) fighting demonic invaders. There are no real problems besides the one you solve in the main quest.

Morrowwind's main story has many open questions: What happened to the dwemer? Was Nerevar betrayed, and if so, by who? Is the Nerevarine prophecy even real or just Azura taking credit? Does morrowwind deserve independence from the imperial yoke? Do the ashlanders deserve to be restored to primary rulers of the island?
Oblivions is about good prophecy orphan man fight invading devil. There's iirc only one question (is mundus just another realm of oblivion?), but it's basically invented and discarded in the same paragraph.

They are part of the same series and have the same lore, but mw puts all the interesting parts front and center, whereas oblivion tries to hide it as much as possible so it can have a simple generic story and setting.

The levelling and magic systems are nearly the same in both

Leveling is basically the same, for magic they removed spell failure and a lot of the most interesting spell effects (levitation, mark, recall, never 4get).

The level scaling in oblivion ruins the leveling system though, and the strongest you can be is as a level 1 character who picked major skills they will never use.

The immersive setting of morrowind is entirely made by fog and silt strider mating calls.

Every type of dungeon in mw has a reason for being there (except the naturally formed ones, like caves). Example:
MW's primary inhabitans, the dunmer, have gone through several religions. They started with ancestor worship, moved on to daedra worship, and then the Tribunal appeared. The island is full of mostly abandoned religious structures of the first two, but the current religion also has a lot of influences from the previous ones (tribunal temples are full of saints which people leave offerings to, which is basically ancestor worship, and the tribunal also keeps contect with various daedra).

Oblivion has 300 abandoned imperial forts, with no reason ever being given for why they were needed or abandoned.

I am very saddened that the codex has come to the point where mw>oblivion is a statement that needs to be justified, and is not considered self evident.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

.g. "ajira's mushroom fetch quest is good bc it familiarizes the player with the setting"

But a fetch quest that serves the purpose of familiarizing the player with a setting IS objectively better than the one that doesn't.

 

[Robotigan]

The immersive setting of morrowind is entirely made by fog and silt strider mating calls.

I mean... if it works...

 

[Bigg Boss]

The immersive setting of morrowind is entirely made by fog and silt strider mating calls.

I mean... if it works...

Don't forget the mushrooms and giant flying jellyfish.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I am very saddened that the codex has come to the point where mw>oblivion is a statement that needs to be justified, and is not considered self evident.

Horrible decline of the community

 

[Bigg Boss]

Morrowind just doesn't have enough tranny hentai loli rape mods for the modern Codex crowd.

 

[Harthwain]

The levelling and magic systems are nearly the same in both.

No.

Level scaling means you could run into bandits with glass gear in the middle of nowhere and there was no difference between being a novice and a master in Oblivion (unlike in Morrowind). As for magic: there is no failure chance and many interesting spells were simply removed in Oblivion.

All this talk about how Oblivion is generic fantasy is silly too. What's the major difference in morrowind? Same races, same lore. The immersive setting of morrowind is entirely made by fog and silt strider mating calls.

Bullshit. Morrowind's biggest strength was the feeling of being a stranger in a strange land. And I don't mean just the mushrooms: I mean the whole deal - the people and their culture. Environments of settlements are varied enough to showcast different types of architecture, so saying it's all "fog and mushrooms" is people trying to be edgy or talking shit out of their ass: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Vvardenfell_Architectural_Styles And there are not only the visuals to consider (such as armors or architecture), but also the language and religion.

 

[JarlFrank]

They are part of the same series and have the same lore

No they don't

Bethesda explicitly retconned all the lore to make Cyrodiil into the bland temperate forest land it ended up being.
Originally, it was supposed to be a jungle, the Imperial City a massive Venice-like place with a ton of canals, each region had its own distinct cultural identity, etc etc.

Beside the names of the places, Oblivion isn't even set in the same world as Morrowind.

 

[KateMicucci]

Vvardenfell is an active volcano, being fought over (mostly politically) by an occupying force, 3 noble houses, a quadrumvirate of gods as well as the native islanders. None of said groups is truly good, and only one is truly evil. Each group has its own approach to architecture, from the stone bricks of the empire to the crab shells of the redorans.

Cyrodiil is verdant grasslands and forests, with a unified medieval european style to everything that you've seen 100 times before but with all the detail sanded off. It's about the good guys (army, emperor, police) fighting demonic invaders. There are no real problems besides the one you solve in the main quest.

Morrowwind's main story has many open questions: What happened to the dwemer? Was Nerevar betrayed, and if so, by who? Is the Nerevarine prophecy even real or just Azura taking credit? Does morrowwind deserve independence from the imperial yoke? Do the ashlanders deserve to be restored to primary rulers of the island?

This is all told through in-game books, or awkward NPC encylopedia entries during the most tedious, boring questlines in the entire series. All this is background drama has little effect on the game in any case. Its noise that never pays off in the game plot in terms of major moves. It's like if the only references to the Skyrim civil war was the Thalmor dossier and you only ever saw Stormcloaks and Legionaries standing around, never fighting each other. Oblivion's plot doesn't have religious drama, but unlike Morrowind, the main plot has a noticeable effect on the world. A city is destroyed and oblivion gates are opening everywhere. The most morrowind has is some diseased critters that aren't even more dangerous than any of the normal monsters in the world.

Leveling is basically the same, for magic they removed spell failure and a lot of the most interesting spell effects (levitation, mark, recall, never 4get).

Levitation is still in. Open console and type tcl. Mark and recall is also still in. Every location you travel to is marked and you can cast recall from the map screen. Levitation in Morrowind was half-implemented jank.

You could at least complain about something that actually was gutted, like enchanting.

I am very saddened that the codex has come to the point where mw>oblivion is a statement that needs to be justified, and is not considered self evident.

Oblivion is better than morrowind in some ways, and in many ways isn't any worse. Oblivion does many things better than non-TES RPGs for which it gets no credit. Oblivion gets criticized for having certain traits or lacking certain things that no other RPG is criticized for. Who criticizes VTMB for not letting you fly around?

Level scaling means you could run into bandits with glass gear in the middle of nowhere and there was no difference between being a novice and a master in Oblivion (unlike in Morrowind). As for magic: there is no failure chance and many interesting spells were simply removed in Oblivion.

You were referring to the character skill ups, not the level scaling. Nobody misses spell failure, just like nobody misses item durability or running using up fatigue.

 

[luj1]

They are part of the same series and have the same lore

No they don't

Bethesda explicitly retconned all the lore to make Cyrodiil into the bland temperate forest land it ended up being.
Originally, it was supposed to be a jungle, the Imperial City a massive Venice-like place with a ton of canals, each region had its own distinct cultural identity, etc etc.

Beside the names of the places, Oblivion isn't even set in the same world as Morrowind.

yup cyrodiil was supposed to be a tropical jungle not generic euro BS

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

a, but unlike Morrowind, the main plot has a noticeable effect on the world. A city is destroyed and oblivion gates are opening everywhere. The most morrowind has is some diseased critters that aren't even more dangerous than any of the normal monsters in the world.

Untrue. In Oblivion apart from main mission in the city under attack, demon invasion is being ignored by nearly everyone in the whole province. There is a quest about finding job for fighters guild members who are jobless You may criticize how Morrowind delivered some of it's worldbuilding but saying that Oblivion has done it better is just plain wrong, bordering on crazy.

Who criticizes VTMB for not letting you fly around?

Having different modes of transportation is very important in the open world game. It's one of the ways you can have gameplay supporting the narrative/setting. I love transportation system in Morrowind when you have to understand bus stops layout