Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition - now with The Lord of Nothing DLC

[Desiderius]

If it's wrong, does a Paladin of Torm stop being Lawful if he enters a land where something normally illegal is legal?

Nope. That’s my point, not yours.

How? I'm saying law means having strict principles you follow. So no - in my version, the Paladin would absolutely keep being Lawful when crossing borders, because that adherence to those principles do not change regardless of the law of the land. You're the one saying those principles must be named and are static/implicit to actual law i.e., Lawful is context-sensitive in your mind.

How old are you btw Desiderius?

Old enough to have stolen money from my grandmother to play coin-op Breakout when it first came out.

How old?

The law is the law whether some Paladin has it or not. It’s the radical subjectivity you don’t even know you’ve been conned into that’s context-specific, not the objective law that was around before you (and I) were born and will be after we’ve gone on to meet our (and it’s) Maker.

Delta S could give a fuck what a Paladin believes or what some tatted-up blue-hair with a fake PhD thinks, or more to the point refuses to.

It's fine that you've read The Closing of the American Mind, I have too. It's a great book with a lot of truth in it - Bloom was ahead of his time, really - though I do find some of it, like his musings on "modern" music, to be absolutely hilariously wrong (objectively, in fact, c wut i did thar?). Sperging about intellectual ideas about truth values and the growing cult of relativity in modern thinking doesn't make them any more relevant for a discussion about how the D&D alignment matrix was meant to be (or is most usefully) used to roleplay and make interesting characters. That's using pearls to adorn swine.

Moreover, to quote a movie: "Your majesty's in danger of seeming... a little stupid," when you wax poetic about how I, as a "kiddo", have been fooled by modernity into embracing radical subjectivity when not only do I fight the very concept every single day and get paid handsomely for the privilege - I also combat it on a volunteer level as a pundit who debates Danish academics about that subject. As any autist, instead of observing the world and reacting accordingly, you already constructed my views in your brain - and from a trivial debate about fucking D&D alignments, no less. If you want to be come off as a big stronk well-read intellectual, try not attempting to elevate pulp like D&D alignments into that sphere.

As for the discussion, your point is that you want Lawful to be imbued with inherent values, which is... fine, I guess, and I concede it doesn't have to be context-sensitive, but it unnecessarily limits the core purpose of the alignment system (= making and roleplaying interesting characters). If Lawful means adhering to a strict set of principles, it leads to you imagining what a given character might have as those very principles - rather than just adding the pre-purposed list of imbued Lawfulness to a character. And that's the purpose of our debate: how alignment is used most effectively and makes for the best games.

More importantly, though, your aloof jargon doesn't have the slightest relevance for this subject, and lets be honest; is absolutely laughable, which is ironic when the very purpose was to make you come off as a SERIOUS DUDE schooling the "kiddo" (which, incidentally, is why I asked you about the age you are so reluctant to divulge).

Bloom lol.

You’re so far in over your head.

 

[Desiderius]

D&D and Pathfinder has little to do with real world. Laws made by mortals are also meaningless, there are primal forces at play here. And in this world Murder for money is evil, not chaotic. Murder for pleasure is Evil and Chaotic.

Desi’s logical fallacy is much more obvious and banal: it’s his inability to understand that how one uses D&D alignment as a tool for making characters doesn’t have to have any relation to one’s ethics or ontological conceptions (and I can’t even fucking believe my life now includes me writing that sentence).

As far as autism goes, I will grant that it excels in so far as it has managed to surprise me with a new brand when I thought I had seen all of its forms on the Codex already.

The thing about the ontological is that it doesn't go away just because you want it to. Most of us develop a sense of object permanance somewhere around two or three. Talk about retarded.

There are laws that aren't made by mortals. That's my whole point. I don't know what's more amazing - your utter inability to wrap your head around the very concept or the arrogant ignorance that flows out of that inability.

The ethics I'm referring to are not "one's" or even "many's", they just are. There is a world beyond and before anyone's conceptions.

The ultimate irony is a bunch of Bishop Berkeley's strutting around full of themselves about how post-Christian they are for owning the lone defender of Enlightenment epistemology.

No, the point is that even if I completely embraced and subsequently swallowed your pseudointellectual christianitybabble as an undeniabl fact of reality, it wouldn’t have anything to do with how to best utilize D&D’s alignment matrix you fucking wacko

You couldn’t handle my Christobabble; that’s why I’ve stuck to the strongest attacks on the Xian worldview since those seemed more your speed. It’s interesting how we got to this point where you guys have talked yourselves into being more anti-intellectual than the worst Bible-beater. I have (at long last) a theory. It’s a puzzler no doubt.

I turn 53 in December. I called you kiddo because that’s the meme, speaking of autism.

 

[user]

Always viewed "law" in D&D simply as something that is structured by a set of rules (whatever they may be), with a hierarchy etc, and is consistent, not random. As for evil and good, I think they are just derived from basic mainstream real life human ethics.
Autists are definitely chaotic, that's for sure.

 

[LannTheStupid]

It should just have been order vs chaos.

I agree that would make things more clear now, especially since most people aren't familiar with Three Hearts and Three Lions.

I see now why Anglo-saxons are so alien to the Russian mindset. This is such hot garbage I have no words.

If you're familiar with Tolkien and want to taste a bit of Russian thinking, check "The Last Ringbearer".

Without an objective world to be about what use are stories at all?

So in your mind human society "laws" are the same as nature's? Like, "thou shalt not kill" is the same as Newton's first law of motion?

I only wish to live long enough to see how Einstein's equation burns all of your commandments.

 

[Acrux]

If you're familiar with Tolkien and want to taste a bit of Russian thinking, check "The Last Ringbearer".

Oh, I have, and it's shit. So I guess we're even.

 

[The_Mask]

I would go for Aeon. It's pretty interesting. And the ending is great, if you stick to being a true Aeon.

This choice has some great consequences, and they are as follows:

• you have an excellent reason to get Regill
• you get to actually save more people than an Angel does
• if you trust the Aeon gaze, and pick according to it, there is a high chance that you will end up with a Regill + Ember party, which is, arguably, the best 2 companions you could ever ask for.
• Mythic Suppression

You could also go Aeon -> Devil. But I would recommend being nice to Ember, because she's awesome.

 

[LannTheStupid]

If you're familiar with Tolkien and want to taste a bit of Russian thinking, check "The Last Ringbearer".

Oh, I have, and it's shit. So I guess we're even.

"East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet". So, yeah, the Earth is too small for both kinds of people.

 

[mediocrepoet]

D&D and Pathfinder has little to do with real world. Laws made by mortals are also meaningless, there are primal forces at play here. And in this world Murder for money is evil, not chaotic. Murder for pleasure is Evil and Chaotic.

Desi’s logical fallacy is much more obvious and banal: it’s his inability to understand that how one uses D&D alignment as a tool for making characters doesn’t have to have any relation to one’s ethics or ontological conceptions (and I can’t even fucking believe my life now includes me writing that sentence).

As far as autism goes, I will grant that it excels in so far as it has managed to surprise me with a new brand when I thought I had seen all of its forms on the Codex already.

The thing about the ontological is that it doesn't go away just because you want it to. Most of us develop a sense of object permanance somewhere around two or three. Talk about retarded.

There are laws that aren't made by mortals. That's my whole point. I don't know what's more amazing - your utter inability to wrap your head around the very concept or the arrogant ignorance that flows out of that inability.

The ethics I'm referring to are not "one's" or even "many's", they just are. There is a world beyond and before anyone's conceptions.

The ultimate irony is a bunch of Bishop Berkeley's strutting around full of themselves about how post-Christian they are for owning the lone defender of Enlightenment epistemology.

No, the point is that even if I completely embraced and subsequently swallowed your pseudointellectual christianitybabble as an undeniabl fact of reality, it wouldn’t have anything to do with how to best utilize D&D’s alignment matrix you fucking wacko

You couldn’t handle my Christobabble; that’s why I’ve stuck to the strongest attacks on the Xian worldview since those seemed more your speed. It’s interesting how we got to this point where you guys have talked yourselves into being more anti-intellectual than the worst Bible-beater. I have (at long last) a theory. It’s a puzzler no doubt.

I turn 53 in December. I called you kiddo because that’s the meme, speaking of autism.

Kind of like Grunker has said... what does any of this have to do with any gaming rule set? Or do you think that the Almighty Himself wrote Pathfinder rules (this would explain a lot about you, coincidentally).

 

[Yosharian]

Frightful is a nonbo with Mounted, and you can use the Mythic you save on Abundant or Mythic Evo Focus for Archon’s and some good spells or Mythic Spell Pen for Prayer or Ever Ready since you’re Reach + Frightful/Righteous.

I don't need Frightfull, he covers that slight Strenght loss by getting more attacks even after moving. And hitting stuff was not a huge problem when he can combine Divine Power and his sacred bonuses to attack or rerolling d20 and taking a better roll.

Frightful is not a no-no if you use a small character or a Kitsune

 

[Yosharian]

I would go for Aeon. It's pretty interesting. And the ending is great, if you stick to being a true Aeon.

This choice has some great consequences, and they are as follows:

• you have an excellent reason to get Regill
• you get to actually save more people than an Angel does
• if you trust the Aeon gaze, and pick according to it, there is a high chance that you will end up with a Regill + Ember party, which is, arguably, the best 2 companions you could ever ask for.
• Mythic Suppression

You could also go Aeon -> Devil. But I would recommend being nice to Ember, because she's awesome.

Best 2 companions because of role-play/dialogue, or gameplay reasons?

 

[Yosharian]

Actually, the mount is the only tank you need, even for unfair.
Horse can be enought, although other choices are definitely better. The most I could get up to 75 ac outside combat with elk.
I don't count bonuses like fighting defensively or crane styles that work only in combat.
Due to the fact that I play TT, AC should be even higher on the base game.

Elk AC breakdown:

AC Bonus Breakdown:
-- Touch AC bonuses --
+10: Basic AC bonus
+14: Dexterity bonus
+4: Deflection bonus [Angelic Aura]
+1: Dodge bonus [Dodge feat]
+1: Dodge bonus [Haste spell]
+4: Dodge bonus [Fighting Defensively + Crane Style]
+3: Morale bonus [Helmet of Comradery]
+2: Insight bonus [Foresight spell]
+1: Untyped bonus [Ward Master's Amulet]
-1: Size penalty
-- Non-Touch AC bonuses --
+24: Natural Armor [Animal Companion bonus]
+6: Natural Armor [Frightful Aspect]
+6: Natural Armor [Inspired Rage]
+5: Enhancement to Natural Armor [Amulet of Deep Roots]
+8: Armor bonus [Bracers of Armor +8]
+4: Shield bonus [Shield spell]
Total Armor Class: 92
Touch Armor Class: 39
Conditional: +4 vs melee

Not using the best tank items, gave those to my boar

 

[The_Mask]

Best 2 companions because of role-play/dialogue, or gameplay reasons?

Mostly role-play/dialogue. Gameplay is only Ember, imo. Regill is fine, obviously... but I haven't been able to make him be "wow!".

I'm sure I fucked up somewhere, however. I'm not the best at mechanics.

 

[Haplo]

Frightful is a nonbo with Mounted, and you can use the Mythic you save on Abundant or Mythic Evo Focus for Archon’s and some good spells or Mythic Spell Pen for Prayer or Ever Ready since you’re Reach + Frightful/Righteous.

I don't need Frightfull, he covers that slight Strenght loss by getting more attacks even after moving. And hitting stuff was not a huge problem when he can combine Divine Power and his sacred bonuses to attack or rerolling d20 and taking a better roll.

Frightful is not a no-no if you use a small character or a Kitsune

Small character would work. Kitsune in vanilla too... for now.
But I'd guess its a matter of time...

 

[Yosharian]

Best 2 companions because of role-play/dialogue, or gameplay reasons?

Mostly role-play/dialogue. Gameplay is only Ember, imo. Regill is fine, obviously... but I haven't been able to make him be "wow!".

I'm sure I fucked up somewhere, however. I'm not the best at mechanics.

I have a Regill build basically done, it's the Stalker build in my Steam page. Currently it's a build for Lann but I'm going to switch it to Regill because then I can use Frightful Aspect on him. He can only start with 15 STR but that's only 1 modifier point less than Lann so it's not as bad as it seems. It's a pretty good build I think

Respec build of course

4 attacks at maximum BAB (flurry+ haste), +79 AB (might be a bit lower, haven't tested ring + Lethal Stance yet)

 

[Yosharian]

Frightful is a nonbo with Mounted, and you can use the Mythic you save on Abundant or Mythic Evo Focus for Archon’s and some good spells or Mythic Spell Pen for Prayer or Ever Ready since you’re Reach + Frightful/Righteous.

I don't need Frightfull, he covers that slight Strenght loss by getting more attacks even after moving. And hitting stuff was not a huge problem when he can combine Divine Power and his sacred bonuses to attack or rerolling d20 and taking a better roll.

Frightful is not a no-no if you use a small character or a Kitsune

Small character would work. Kitsune in vanilla too... for now.
But I'd guess its a matter of time...

Don't even go there godammit

 

[Cyberarmy]

Keep it coming

If you really plan to build a "biter" I did some crazy stuff back then.
Motherless thiefling Monk, wolf scarred Seeker Oracle with natures whispers (I think wolfscarred is a bit nerfed), Vivi for feral mutagen, dragon bite from Dragon Disciple and finished with Primalist for animal fury and beast totem(and Serpent bloodline giving bite and gore more range). Choosen demon for even more natural attack goodness.
Fighting with tooth and nail and head butts, it was glorious. It's just a late bloomer and I don't really like this kind of multi classing.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Actually, the mount is the only tank you need, even for unfair.
Horse can be enought, although other choices are definitely better. The most I could get up to 75 ac outside combat with elk.
I don't count bonuses like fighting defensively or crane styles that work only in combat.
Due to the fact that I play TT, AC should be even higher on the base game.

Elk AC breakdown:

AC Bonus Breakdown:
-- Touch AC bonuses --
+10: Basic AC bonus
+14: Dexterity bonus
+4: Deflection bonus [Angelic Aura]
+1: Dodge bonus [Dodge feat]
+1: Dodge bonus [Haste spell]
+4: Dodge bonus [Fighting Defensively + Crane Style]
+3: Morale bonus [Helmet of Comradery]
+2: Insight bonus [Foresight spell]
+1: Untyped bonus [Ward Master's Amulet]
-1: Size penalty
-- Non-Touch AC bonuses --
+24: Natural Armor [Animal Companion bonus]
+6: Natural Armor [Frightful Aspect]
+6: Natural Armor [Inspired Rage]
+5: Enhancement to Natural Armor [Amulet of Deep Roots]
+8: Armor bonus [Bracers of Armor +8]
+4: Shield bonus [Shield spell]
Total Armor Class: 92
Touch Armor Class: 39
Conditional: +4 vs melee

Not using the best tank items, gave those to my boar

I think that if you go Angel you have another 7 ward spells that should all stack on top of the death ward AC from Ward Master's Amulet as well.

 

[Tsubutai]

You can only get AC from Ward Master's amulet for one spell - it doesn't stack like that. However, you can proc it a second time using the Ward hex if you want.

 

[Stoned Ape]

You can only get AC from Ward Master's amulet for one spell - it doesn't stack like that. However, you can proc it a second time using the Ward hex if you want.

That's what I get from reading other people's information online and not checking myself, thanks for letting me know!

 

[Stoned Ape]

One thing I can personally verify is that the black spot condition in the DLC is busted. It seems to be giving the pirates +1 to hit and damage for every one of them you kill, rather than for every 5 pirates you kill.

 

[Daidre]

One thing I can personally verify is that the black spot condition in the DLC is busted. It seems to be giving the pirates +1 to hit and damage for every one of them you kill, rather than for every 5 pirates you kill.

Yes, I have reported it after I've fought pirates buffed to +23 attack/damage with level 5 party.

And seems I've found new way to soft-brick my DLC 3 save again. After I've played Gold Dragon (but I suspect that all "advanced" paths will do) my next character can't progress to MR 3 - all her options for 6 basic paths are locked, only Dragon/Devil/Swarm got picture but can't be selected too.

 

[Tsubutai]

Finally reached Threshold on my Unfair challenge run. Some parts of DLC3 aside, it basically turned into Story mode somewhere mid-way through Act 4, even with all the self-imposed restrictions. The last fight that forced me to adopt properly new tactics was the boss fight of the second DLC3 island chain, although the fight against Nahyndri's soul in the chain caught me by surprise with the main enemy doing touch attacks with 75 AB. I had to actually use defensive fighting for that one.

 

[Stoned Ape]

One thing I can personally verify is that the black spot condition in the DLC is busted. It seems to be giving the pirates +1 to hit and damage for every one of them you kill, rather than for every 5 pirates you kill.

Yes, I have reported it after I've fought pirates buffed to +23 attack/damage with level 5 party.

And seems I've found new way to soft-brick my DLC 3 save again. After I've played Gold Dragon (but I suspect that all "advanced" paths will do) my next character can't progress to MR 3 - all her options for 6 basic paths are locked, only Dragon/Devil/Swarm got picture but can't be selected too.

Would Toybox fix it via its unlock mythic paths option?

 

[Daidre]

Would Toybox fix it via its unlock mythic paths option?

Alas, I've tried it, but no luck(

 

[Stoned Ape]

Would Toybox fix it via its unlock mythic paths option?

Alas, I've tried it, but no luck(

I'm pretty sure that's a bug they've introduced as part of a patch as well, because my first expedition on the roguelike was as a Legend (from MR 3) before they patched out being able to select it early, and I was fine to choose any path I liked during the second expedition.