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How great RPGs would be without the decline?

DannyRope

Literate
Joined
Oct 29, 2024
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46
Beggars can`t be choosers. Is not as if we are getting Wizardry 6/7/8, BG2-SoA, VtMB, Arcanum, FL1/2 and other masterpieces every single month. In a world of Failguards and Forspoken, BG3 is a masterpiece. But compared to older classic games, is awful.

While I adore Arcanum and Bloodlines, especially the latter one, at the same time it seems I hold a more charitable view on BG3 than most guys around these parts, I wouldn't call it a masterpiece but certainly not awful either. I enjoyed it well enough, I also played it to completion which is something rare for me with modern RPG. It lacks sense of urgency, for a plot that is supposed to be all about getting rid of a fatal parasites but that it seems to be a common flaw for modern RPG. "I have to find my adoptive daughter Ciri before the Wild Hunt get to her! Oh, wait... that's a nice deck you have there, mind a game of Gwent?"
 

Falksi

Arcane
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Feb 14, 2017
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11,118
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Nottingham
In the past, when technology advanced, devs were eager to implement new stuff. For example, from Might & Magic V to VI: Mandate of Heaven, one of the very first things that they did was to add flight spells into the game. Same for Ultima Underworld, the game implemented levitation magic spells not presented in the mainline of Ultima games. Sadly, nowadays RPGs are all about taking cool stuff from older games and iterations and removing it.

But just imagine how cool they could be if, for example, instead of dialog wheels, each NPC could be talked to like a chatterbot. IF instead of removing ways to open doors, in older RPGs like Arcanum, you could bash, disintegrate doors with spells, magically open with unlock cantrip, lockpick, use dynamite, etc., to open any door or window. In modern RPGs, you can only use a lockpick. With all advancements in physics engines, real-time RPGs could have realistic physics, allowing, for example, a very powerful psion to telekinetically hurl a car at a building, and the game could simulate the impact, damage, and other factors in a realistic way. The AI of monsters in real-time RPGs could be as advanced as FEAR. Axe strikes could decapitate enemies and mutilate enemy bodies in a realistic way. With the advancement of AI, we could have P&P modules ported into CRPGs, and the DM could react to PCs out-of-the-box thinking. Think of using animated objects in very creative ways to bypass puzzles or, IDK, sneaking into the boss with an army of invisible animated bag of holdings to drop nasty stuff upon him. An AI DM would be able to react to such ideas. The AI would also be able to counter the PC party in TB games and force the PC to adjust its strategy. Could be even more advanced than KoTC2. Other game genres to take the advancements in physics and AI.

But instead we got... dialog wheels, bullet sponge enemies, the same QTE/cooldown managing boredom for endless gear farming, stat-sticky itemization, nonsensical stupid armor design, pronouns in character creation, etc.
Tbf, we didn't get those things, normies did.

Games like Skald, Underail and Grimoire prove that there's still enough of an underground scene for us to just enjoy old school style stuff. In fact, even some devs like SEGA/Atlus give us more old-school experiences such as SMTVV and Yakuza: Like A Dragon. I couldn't give a fuck about the mainstream dross they shit out, that's long been put to the back of the queue for me to maybe occasionally pirate or buy dirt cheap for shits and giggles more than anything. I picked up Fallout 4 for £1 for the PS4, and even then felt fucking robbed.
 

Skinwalker

biggest fear: vacuum cleaner
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It lacks sense of urgency, for a plot that is supposed to be all about getting rid of a fatal parasites but that it seems to be a common flaw for modern RPG. "I have to find my adoptive daughter Ciri before the Wild Hunt get to her! Oh, wait... that's a nice deck you have there, mind a game of Gwent?"
Yea, but what about "my childhood friend Imoen was RAPED and kidnapped by an evil wizard who wants nothing more than to viciously experiment on her! anyway, let's talk to every single person in this city and do errands for them for the next several months, probably."

Putting a super-urgent plot mission aside to enjoy the side-quests is a long-standing tradition in RPGs. Ironically, Dragon Age II was one of the games whose main quest (in the first act) made the most sense: the protagonist is just trying to get enough money to go on a risky expedition that might help him left himself and his family out of poverty.

And then the second and third act happen and the game goes to shit.
 

Shaki

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
1,732
Location
Hyperborea
Games trying to become closer to the PnP is the decline now, because PnP declined itself. We've already seen what happens when devs emulate tabletop experience now. BG3 went all in trying to become "Critical Role: The Game", and it ain't pretty. Normies have the destroyed the hobby, and it should've been abandoned long time ago. Just make fun games that are good in the context of cRPG genre (like Underrail), instead of trying to focus on "hurr durr why it isn't more like PnP" (like BG3). If you want PnP, go befriend some trannies and play with them irl, they love it. I lock myself in the basement with my PC to escape from these people, not get closer to them.

:rpgcodex:
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Games trying to become closer to the PnP is the decline now, because PnP declined itself

That depends on the P&P game. D&D 5e? PF2e? Yes. Huge decline.

Now, imagine a as close to P&P as possible adaptation of Hyperborea, GURPS Technomancer, Machinations of the Space Princess.

PS : I agree that UnderRail is amazing. But IMO WH40k RT would be better if was closer to Dark Heresy TT RPG. Or to other OwlCat systems. And had Telekinesis for psykers.
 

OSK

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Putting a super-urgent plot mission aside to enjoy the side-quests is a long-standing tradition in RPGs.

Outside of implementing strict time limits, I don't think there's a way to avoid that. I know I've been conditioned to do all sidequests before continuing with the main plot. The only game I recall not doing so was with Pathfinder: Kingmaker. In that game you were better off doing the main quest first and then doing the side quests during the downtime before the next chapter would trigger.
 

mediocrepoet

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Putting a super-urgent plot mission aside to enjoy the side-quests is a long-standing tradition in RPGs.

Outside of implementing strict time limits, I don't think there's a way to avoid that. I know I've been conditioned to do all sidequests before continuing with the main plot. The only game I recall not doing so was with Pathfinder: Kingmaker. In that game you were better off doing the main quest first and then doing the side quests during the downtime before the next chapter would trigger.
And people BITCH about it all the time. :lol:
 

Harthwain

Arcane
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Messages
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And people BITCH about it all the time. :lol:
Can you blame them? The narrative sense of urgency isn't something that is conveyed by the gameplay in the vast majority of games. In the same vein people think it is better to do the main quest last, before doing everything else, because usually doing otherwise means skipping content (which people don't want) and a harder fight. This is why it's so important to have a natural way to tell the player he has to hurry. Pathologic comes to mind.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Putting a super-urgent plot mission aside to enjoy the side-quests is a long-standing tradition in RPGs.

Outside of implementing strict time limits, I don't think there's a way to avoid that. I know I've been conditioned to do all sidequests before continuing with the main plot. The only game I recall not doing so was with Pathfinder: Kingmaker. In that game you were better off doing the main quest first and then doing the side quests during the downtime before the next chapter would trigger.

A better way would be NOT having such strict deadlines. Or dire consequences for neglecting the main story. In case of BG2, the evil Wizard could break completely your companion. She could end up also pregnant from the villain.
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
And people BITCH about it all the time. :lol:
Can you blame them? The narrative sense of urgency isn't something that is conveyed by the gameplay in the vast majority of games. In the same vein people think it is better to do the main quest last, before doing everything else, because usually doing otherwise means skipping content (which people don't want) and a harder fight. This is why it's so important to have a natural way to tell the player he has to hurry. Pathologic comes to mind.
You mean like the Bald Hill events and other events that grow in severity over time but still giving you time to react before game over, particularly in chapters one and two along with a variety of dialogue and journal entries to mention it?

You're basically asking whether basic literacy should be expected for the genre and I would say, yes, it should be.
 

Harthwain

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You mean like the Bald Hill events and other events that grow in severity over time but still giving you time to react before game over, particularly in chapters one and two along with a variety of dialogue and journal entries to mention it?

You're basically asking whether basic literacy should be expected for the genre and I would say, yes, it should be.
Wait, so are the people bitching, because there is a timer and they know about it (and "want to explore in peace") or are they bitching, because there is a timer and they didn't realize it (and nobody usually expects timers)? I didn't play Pathfinder games yet, so I had no idea the game actually hints at situation getting worse. This is a good thing. Although I'd rather have the kind of timer you can sort-of control, instead of very strict deadlines. Maybe not entirely, but at least in some capacity.
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
You mean like the Bald Hill events and other events that grow in severity over time but still giving you time to react before game over, particularly in chapters one and two along with a variety of dialogue and journal entries to mention it?

You're basically asking whether basic literacy should be expected for the genre and I would say, yes, it should be.
Wait, so are the people bitching, because there is a timer and they know about it (and "want to explore in peace") or are they bitching, because there is a timer and they didn't realize it (and nobody usually expects timers)? I didn't play Pathfinder games yet, so I had no idea the game actually hints at situation getting worse. This is a good thing. Although I'd rather have the kind of timer you can sort-of control, instead of very strict deadlines. Maybe not entirely, but at least in some capacity.
They're bitching because (generous) timers exist and are real not just window dressing. It'd be like losing your shit because you can theoretically run out of time in Fallout if you don't do the MQ.
 

rumSaint

Educated
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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
The decline happens in whole gaming industry. Designs are mostly focused on sanitized, safe and easily digestable experience to appeal to widest possible audience. It doesn't only happen in RPGs. Crowbcat have some good videos showing this.

The cost of game production is rising up as well as artists, voice actors and writers cost more and more, while providing with fucking less.

Tech have nothing to do with it. Tech allowed for better presentation. Unfortunately designers seem to regurgitate same concepts over and over.
 

DannyRope

Literate
Joined
Oct 29, 2024
Messages
46
Lowest common denominator, it happens everywhere. Horror games went to the shitter thanks to streamers and their exaggerated cringe inducing screams; industry took notes and thus most "horror" titles became a jumpscare fest "please, mighty and handsome streamer, record yourself reacting to our game" drivel. Now it's the turn for RPG. Time is a flat circle. Every game genre no matter the overall quality of its titles will decline over and over and over again. Forever.
 

rumSaint

Educated
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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Lowest common denominator, it happens everywhere. Horror games went to the shitter thanks to streamers and their exaggerated cringe inducing screams; industry took notes and thus most "horror" titles became a jumpscare fest "please, mighty and handsome streamer, record yourself reacting to our game" drivel. Now it's the turn for RPG. Time is a flat circle. Every game genre no matter the overall quality of its titles will decline over and over and over again. Forever.
Fuck man, streamer based games. Horrors and Roguelites suffers the most imho.
 

DannyRope

Literate
Joined
Oct 29, 2024
Messages
46
Indeed, brother. Well, pessimism aside, that most of everything tend to be mediocre probably has been a universal truth since the dawn of time. It makes you appreciate the truly good stuff more. Back on videogames, fortunately, in horror case, games can't be just horror, can't they? When all is said and done, horror is an aesthetic more than anything (music, suspense, darkness...) so ultimately the majority of horror drivel are walking simulators which would have been shit anyway.
 

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