Interview Spector is Pro-Choice

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Warren Spector

<a href="http://www.eurogamer.net/">EuroGamer</a> has <a href="http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=65751">an interview</a> with <b>Warren Spector</b>. You may remember him as that guy who worked on a bunch of cultish successful games. Anyway, some guy from <a href="http://www.valvesoftware.com/">Valve Software</a> said something about how he was wrong about having six choices in games because players will only see one-sixth of the game or something. Here's part of the reply:
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<blockquote>So, to try to wrap this up in something less than book length, I don't believe it's ever a waste of time to give players real choices, rather than fake ones. If all you're doing is putting players on rails and rocketing them through your story, why not just build a roller coaster or make a movie? If the only choice a player gets to make is which weapon to use to kill a bad guy, you've completely wasted that player's time. Roller coaster rides are immense amounts of fun, but really, all they do is provide an adrenalin rush and a moment's distraction from the workaday world. Games can be more. Movies are terrific storytelling devices - I love movies - but movies already exist. I don't need to make them. (Well, I kinda want to produce a movie someday, but that's another matter entirely...) If all you're doing is telling yourstory to players (with the added attraction of getting to pick a gun once in a while), why bother?</blockquote>
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Wasn't he the guy who said, few years back, there's no point in making games with multiple paths because a player will only play a game once anyway? Or am I having a stroke? <i>Changing one's mind is a custom us Canadians hold dear, sir!</i>
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Thanks, <b>Ghan</b>!
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[roguefrog]

Well there was that "tyranny of choice" comment he made a while back, but Deus Ex does illustrate that he was down with it.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

I haven't played many of the guys games but wasn't dues ex2 have no real choices compared to the first one?


That guy may be the next RexExitium legendary flip floper of the east.

 

[doctor_kaz]

I won't listen to anything that Warren Spector says until we get a heartfelt apology for Deus Ex: Invisible War.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I won't listen to anything that Warren Spector says until we get a heartfelt apology for Deus Ex: Invisible War.

He talks about it in part 2 of the interview.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?ar ... 769&page=1

Warren Spector: I know some folks thought Invisible War and Deadly Shadows were "dumbed down for console". And, yes, we did make a conscious attempt to reach out to a larger audience. (Increasing development costs'll do that to you!) However, both teams still set some mighty lofty goals - goals that had nothing to do with making the games accessible to a larger audience. I'm willing to acknowledge that both games fell short of their goals if some of the critics will acknowledge how many risks the teams took and how hard the challenges were that they tried to tackle.

But to answer your question, I don't think it's in any way - any way - necessary to dumb a game down for console or to reach a huge audience.

You just need to execute exceptionally well on a clear, compelling concept.

Gamers aren't stupid and they're not kids (not most of 'em, anyway). You can make serious, adult entertainment, release it on a console and succeed.

 

[Drakron]

<a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/27/britney_sculpture/">Birthing</a> <a href="http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7758/t67ybr7vm.jpg">Spector?</a>

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

But to answer your question, I don't think it's in any way - any way - necessary to dumb a game down for console or to reach a huge audience.

You just need to execute exceptionally well on a clear, compelling concept.

Gamers aren't stupid and they're not kids (not most of 'em, anyway). You can make serious, adult entertainment, release it on a console and succeed.

Jesus, Warren, you`ll never get that job at Bethesda with this kind of talk.

 

[Psilon]

Given that the original Deus Ex required 64MB, actually needed 128B, and had a hard disk available for paging, I fail to see how a more graphically intensive sequel with larger textures, higher-poly models, no virtual memory, and an overabundance of shaders could fit into 64MB of XBox RAM without serious design compromises. Ya cannae break the laws o' physics, captain.

 

[Voss]

Well there was that "tyranny of choice" comment he made a while back, but Deus Ex does illustrate that he was down with it.

That he was against that whole tyrrany of choice? yes, it does. Play it a bit, around the decision points and you'll find that
1- you still get railroaded.
2- it doesn't actually change much if you manage to be quick enough to force a 'choice' down the systems throat. Killing the cyber-bitch in the plane doesn't throw you down another path (rather than nuking her with a password a bit later). Nor does saving your brother in his apartment. Or killing the first boss. Or...
3- The thing I most remember from that game is that I really wanted to be loyal to the organization. The vague bullshit people were hinting at (early on) wasn't enough to make me turn on the unit. But, hey, I had to anyway.

I still want to smack people who think adding a weak skill system makes the game an rpg, too.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Yeah, that pissed me off about DX. It was still linear as all fuck despite a few options the player had.

 

[Dragon]

Whatever the critics, the first DX is still one of the best mix of FPS and RPG you can get (along with System Shock 2 and Bloodlines).

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Yeah, but other than those games, how many types of that genre were released?

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Yeah, but other than those games, how many types of that genre were released?

Waht kind of argument is that? How many Fallout like games have there been?

 

[mathboy]

Yeah, but other than those games, how many types of that genre were released?

Waht kind of argument is that? How many Fallout like games have there been?

While Fallout is one the best CRPGs, I'm sure Lionheart was one of the best SPECIAL using medieval realtime CRPGS, just like Deus Ex is one of the best pseudo-RPG FPSs with stats.

 

[LlamaGod]

Bloodlines does what Deus Ex tried to do way fucking better than DE.

Deus Ex was a standard FPS but with a few 'pick' points that all lead the same spot ala arcade shooting games. They made all standard actions of a FPS - Finding keycards/Locked Doors, Shooting, Movement in area - shitted them out and attached 'skills' to them, where you spend points thrown at you as you play to bring them to normalcy.

There wasn't a slightlest hint of RPG in there, even in the loosest sense.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

It's true that DX was rather linear due its mission-based rather than open-world nature and I'm still ticked that I couldn't stick with UNATCO or sell out to Bob Page, but it's one of the few games were they acted as if your choices really mattered because the people were supposed to be people rather than NPCs in the background to your quest for the Thingamajig of Power. When you kill people unnecessarily your pacifist brother gets ticked at you, and if you cut and run it's like his blood is on your hands, even if he doesn't do much afterward. The ending is more than just choose-which-faction-to-side-with, it's how you would change the world if you had the option. There's little gameplay significance in whether Manderley yells at you for going into the women's restroom or if Gunther takes it personally that you killed Anna (although it seems impossible, if you avoid doing it his dialogue is different), but it still made the world feel more reactive and the choices meaningful.

 

[Hazelnut]

Bloodlines does what Deus Ex tried to do way fucking better than DE.

Deus Ex was a standard FPS but with a few 'pick' points that all lead the same spot ala arcade shooting games. They made all standard actions of a FPS - Finding keycards/Locked Doors, Shooting, Movement in area - shitted them out and attached 'skills' to them, where you spend points thrown at you as you play to bring them to normalcy.

There wasn't a slightlest hint of RPG in there, even in the loosest sense.

Complete rubbish. (IMHO)

I will agree that the overarching story and plot were linear - with limited scope for choices. However, if you care to look on a smaller scale, at the 'problems' posed within the levels (it was built on an FPS engine which limited it somewhat), then you'll see that there was choice. There was not a single solution to the problem, there was just the problem, the environment and your skills/enhancements. You choose your route or 'solution', and as Warren mentioned in one of the interviews, a lot of fun could be derived from comparing your approach with those taken by others. Some levels were better at delivering this than others, personally I think that the very first level/mission was one of the best. You can't simply dismiss all this as the same as standard, if very good, shooters like the Half-Lives. (and they're more story driven than most FPS fare)

To dismiss Deus Ex as not having a slightlest hint of RPG is ridiculous hyperbole.

I'm somewhat surprised at the lack of positive reaction to what Warren is saying. I'd have thought that many codexers would appreciate the things he's saying as the right direction for games, or at the very least far better than the current trends. He may not be about to develop the pinnacle of RPG goodness, but I have a lot of time for what he says. He champions the kind of things that I like to see in games and talks a hell of a lot more sense than most in the industry.

 

[Jasede]

Bloodlines does what Deus Ex tried to do way fucking better than DE.

Deus Ex was a standard FPS but with a few 'pick' points that all lead the same spot ala arcade shooting games. They made all standard actions of a FPS - Finding keycards/Locked Doors, Shooting, Movement in area - shitted them out and attached 'skills' to them, where you spend points thrown at you as you play to bring them to normalcy.

There wasn't a slightest hint of RPG in there, even in the loosest sense.

I have a question, LlamaGod. What would you call System Shock 1 and 2, having stated this? Are they 3D RPGs, or action-RPGs or are they neither? I am sure that calling 2 or even the very nonlinear 1 just a mindless shooter, an FPS would cheapen those grand games quite a bit. So, if compared to Deus Ex, as what kind of genre do they classify?

Personally, I like to use a nintendoneologism when talking about them: 'First Person Adventure', which is how Nintendo described Metroid Prime. In retrospect, SS1 and 2 did feel like embarking on a difficult, long adventure, methinks.

 

[LlamaGod]

First Person Adventure fits the System Shock games much better than RPG, especially the first.

 

[galsiah]

I liked DX a lot, but it never occurred to me to think of it as an RPG. It makes no mention of role playing, or even "RPG elements" on the box (the box I've got anyway, I'm not sure about the original packaging). Clearly there's a lot missing if it's evaluated as an RPG, but why would anyone do that?

When you kill people unnecessarily your pacifist brother gets ticked at you, and if you cut and run it's like his blood is on your hands, even if he doesn't do much afterward.

I don't think you can really count both of these as advantages:
The pacifist thing has pretty much zero consequences after the first mission. On my first playthrough it seemed important for quite a while. It really isn't though - no-one cares after the start of the game whether you systematically kill every enemy, or sneak past. I felt quite let down by this - you're told "This matters", and the rest of the game shows you that it doesn't (in game world terms). Even Paul doesn't care later. [In fact, it's arguable that Paul isn't a pacifist in the first place: he's already working for the NSF before you go after them. The pacifist line might just be an effort to support his friends without blowing his cover.]

Paul's death/survival is pretty much the opposite - many players won't realize that things could have gone differently on the first playthrough. Personally, I left Paul because I thought that's what the game intended me to do - I wasn't sure that he was going to die, and I wasn't sure that my staying would have saved him.

There's little gameplay significance in whether Manderley yells at you for going into the women's restroom or if Gunther takes it personally that you killed Anna (although it seems impossible, if you avoid doing it his dialogue is different), but it still made the world feel more reactive and the choices meaningful.

That's true, but the women's toilets thing seems a little contrived. It's interesting when it happens, but I couldn't help thinking that pretty much everyone would have investigated every room that early in the game. It didn't really feel to me that the world was responding to how I was playing, so much as covering a very obvious option.

It's also a little vexing that much of the reactivity occurs early in the game. This raised my expectations for later, but the rest of the game doesn't react so much (to indirect situations in any case). Though I was pleased when Manderley refered to what had happened in the bar - I'd inadvertantly triggered a gunfight. That felt a bit more unique to my actions.

The second time through I executed the NSF prisoner in front of the guy in black before he got a chance to speak. (the NSF guy clearly couldn't be allowed to leak information). That got a rather pleasing reaction from the investigator.

I'd agree that DX did well to create the illusion that NPCs were people who cared about your actions.
It didn't really have any large scale consequences though. Even situations where the plot should have branched it didn't. For instance, it is possible (with strength upgrades and various grenades etc.) to escape the area in New York without being captured by Gunther. You can avoid / kill the guards, and walk around to the helicopter - there's just no way to speak to the guy or get in.

 

[Voss]

Complete rubbish. (IMHO)

Or not. As you go on to say...

I will agree that the overarching story and plot were linear - with limited scope for choices.

Huh. Now, on to the bullshit!

However, if you care to look on a smaller scale, at the 'problems' posed within the levels (it was built on an FPS engine which limited it somewhat), then you'll see that there was choice. There was not a single solution to the problem, there was just the problem, the environment and your skills/enhancements. You choose your route or 'solution', and as Warren mentioned in one of the interviews, a lot of fun could be derived from comparing your approach with those taken by others.

Ooo.. OO.. OmiGOD! Billie! The way you jumped up on that one barrel, instead of like, just shooting the guy was just SOOOO amazing. It gets me sooo fucking hot.

Shut the fuck up. This isn't role-playing. This is basic tactics with a very limited set of choices.

You can't simply dismiss all this as the same as standard, if very good, shooters like the Half-Lives. (and they're more story driven than most FPS fare)

To dismiss Deus Ex as not having a slightlest hint of RPG is ridiculous hyperbole.

Oh, but I can. And no, it isn't. There are things I look for in an RPG, and DX had none of them. Zip. Zero. A weak-ass skill system and an approach to level building that allows for limited tactics doesn't qualify.

I'm somewhat surprised at the lack of positive reaction to what Warren is saying. I'd have thought that many codexers would appreciate the things he's saying as the right direction for games, or at the very least far better than the current trends. He may not be about to develop the pinnacle of RPG goodness, but I have a lot of time for what he says. He champions the kind of things that I like to see in games and talks a hell of a lot more sense than most in the industry.

Yeah, that would be nice and all, except he has never delievered. And the fact that its a complete 180 from the shit he was spouting a few years back makes it extra suspicious. Plus he has some guy looking over his shoulder saying, no, choices are a mistake. Yeah, good sign.

 

[Dragon]

Complete rubbish. Shut the fuck up. This isn't role-playing.

Ab-so-lu-tly ! Take "running "for exemple, what is running ? Running is going 42 km (and 300 m !) by foot in less than two hours. Everything else is NOT running, just moving you ass rather than staying in the couch. End of argument.
When are some of you going to desacralize the term "RPG" ? It's just broader than your narrow mind, that's all.
(beeing a little pissed because I'm a DX fanboy of course)

 

[FaranBrygo]

Deus Ex deserves to be in the catagory of RPG as much as Pong does.

 

[Dragon]

Deus Ex deserves to be in the catagory of RPG as much as Pong does.

I won't even say in which category YOU belong.

 

[The_Pope]

Deus Ex is way too cool to be an RPG, given that RPG means mindless level grind with the exceptions of Fallout and PST. They aren't the norm. They're so different from RPGs that they probably deserve their own genre name.