Editorial Jeff Vogel to develop God of War 3

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Tags: Jeff Vogel

Jeff Vogel's treatise on why he hates fantasy RPGs receives a second part in RPG Vault's <a href=http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/782/782155p1.html>View From The Bottom</a>. The editorial exposes some of the genre's pitfalls through some specific game examples and amusing babrs, along with suggesting some directions for its future. Mandatory clip:<blockquote>But for the lucky people who didn't read the previous column, my first big problem with RPGs is this; unlike other computer games, they almost invariably start me as an insignificant loser. Before I can do anything exciting or heroic, I have to pay my dues by spending tons of time gaining levels and proving that I am competent. My time is valuable. If I'm going to enter my fantasy world, I don't want to be a jackass in it. I want to do something cool and exciting NOW.
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I was mainly writing this in reference to single-player computer games. Massively multiplayer games are so far beyond the pale in their hunger to make you waste your time doing meaningless, repetitive tasks that there isn't any point in discussing them.
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Many single-player RPGs, even excellent ones, fall into this trap. My favorite example is BioWare's classic, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. Great game. Lots of fun, overall. But even it makes you play for many hours before it lets you even get your hands on a light saber. I am SO grateful that, at long last, a computer game let me live my lifelong dream of NOT being a Jedi.
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That is why I am enjoying playing Company of Heroes so much. It's a real-time strategy game set in World War II. For the very first mission, you get to attack Omaha Beach. How cool is that? If it was an RPG, I'd have to spend 30 hours killing Nazi rats before I got to do anything that interesting.</blockquote>I have to agree, though. I think character development is not only important but also very rewarding if done right. But if the only way you have of filling in on your creative blanks is to inflate the game with inconsequential combat, at least make it fun and challenging.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.rpgwatch.com">RPG Watch</A>

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I do find it interesting though, that when I made such suggestions in the past I was somewhat discouraged or dismissed. Let's see how people react to his suggestion of looking at other genres.

 

[Ladonna]

What is it that Vogel wants? I am kind of confused here....Is he saying that he wants to be powerful at the start and go anywhere, do anything? Why doesn't he just start Oblivion?

For the budding designers here: How would you create an RPG that catered to Jeff Vogel's wants and needs?

 

[Twinfalls]

The real problem is not how you start in RPGs, it's how they end. Their makers now (save Iron Tower it would seem) lack the imagination and courage to design a game in which you must progress to anything but an uber-God in order to complete the thing.

That starting 'weak' must mean you only do 'boring' stuff and is therefore 'dull', is a fallacy anyway. Gothic 1's first phase was arguably still the series' finest moment.

Vogel ought to love the upcoming MassTurbation Effect then, - you can do such interesting, cool EXTREME collar-grabbing right from the get-go.

 

[Brother None]

Ladonna; I think, though I might be interpretating too much, that Vogel's biggest issue is not so much that you start out weaker than you end (though why this concept is obligatory in RPGs is unclear anyway), but that to start becoming stronger you are usually asked to do a lot of meaningless tasks that do not tie into the story (Temple of Trials, anyone?)

It should be pretty obvious that this starting boost, in which levelling usually goes a lot faster than later in the game, is pretty important to grab the player by the throat and pull him into the game.

But I think the most important function of this starting run is not so much the levelling or the loot, both those things just serve the function of defining the PC for the player. If you look at it that way, isn't tedious combat the most circumstantial way to reach that goal, rather than the fastest?

 

[Zomg]

Er, I dropped off of Spiderweb stuff after Geneforge 2 turned abruptly into endless trash monster lawnmowing about an hour after I was into the paid content. I thought that was pretty much what Vogel's games were about. Incorrect impression?

I thought his baby blog was pretty funny, though - (paraphrase) "I was disturbed to see my infant daughter was playing with a coathanger. In the wild, babies and coathangers are natural enemies."

 

[JarlFrank]

What is it that Vogel wants? I am kind of confused here....Is he saying that he wants to be powerful at the start and go anywhere, do anything? Why doesn't he just start Oblivion?

For the budding designers here: How would you create an RPG that catered to Jeff Vogel's wants and needs?

Simple. Give the player tasks which are interesting. Throw him directly into the action, too. Don't give him lengthy tutorial dungeons. Like, let something happen in the beginning. Let the task be clear. Let the player choose how to finish off this task. He must find out how to get to the quest goal, though. And while he does so, he discovers interesting backstorys all the time. And, he is free to choose how he does it. I'm talking multiple ways to the goal, here. Design the complete thingie interesting. And, offer quests which let the player think and require him to use both physical and mental skills, instead of grinding areas. Let these quests give him more experience than the usual fetch and bring shit, so he levels up faster and doesn't have to dispatch dozens of weakling enemies to be strong enough.

In conclusion: Make not only the main quest interesting, also the ways how to get along it. Offer interesting stuff to be found, and interesting ways of leveling up. Remove grinding. Problem solved.

 

[Ladonna]

Then why doesn't he just play Teudogar instead of playing a fucking Final Fantasy game? Sometimes an idiot only needs to read what they write once, and I bet Vogel didn't do that after he wrote the guff in that article.

If you don't like level grinding.....

DON'T PLAY FINAL FANTASY! :wink: Amongst other games...

Vogel carries on about his WoW garbage, and Final Fantasy playing and then streams his crap out about 'I hate RPG's because they are level grinders!!'. No wonder he thinks the way he does. Instead of wasting his time on that shite, I wish he made a better combat engine and pushed more of his great ideas into his own games.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

If you don't like level grinding.....

DON'T PLAY FINAL FANTASY! :wink: Amongst other games...

That's one thing wrong with Final Fantasy games there, and another recurring offender are the animations that play out in combat, with summoned monsters and beast taking up a long time which most of the time you just can't bypass. I say most of the time since I haven't been able to play the latest iterations so I'm not sure those are fixed.

Curiously, Final Fantasy VIII is likely the most reviled games in the series but is structured so you don't have to grind, as the game dynamically adjusts to your level. Apparently, that was frowned upon and repetitive and pointless combat returned to the series.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Level scaling is one of the most universially hated things in games along with escort missions and time limits. Level scaling is usually implemented horribly, in fact I can't really remember a good usage of it besides Daggerfall and Morrowind.

The other two are just the fault of ADHD kiddies.

 

[MF]

What a moron.
I love Geneforge, but...he comes off as a retard. Final Fantasy XII? He thinks people who play that are his customer base?
He needs a reality check, fast.

 

[Ladonna]

What a moron.
I love Geneforge, but...he comes off as a retard. Final Fantasy XII? He thinks people who play that are his customer base?
He needs a reality check, fast.

Exactly! Thats why I threw my hands up when I read the article. I have even posted over at the Spiderweb forums just to get the point across. His sycophants will no doubt jump down my throat as soon as they see the post

I note that his own games retain these level grinding qualities to some extent. Perhaps he should play some good RPG's for a change and steal ideas from them, it would make a world of difference for him and the people that buy his games.

 

[Shannow]

For the budding designers here: How would you create an RPG that catered to Jeff Vogel's wants and needs?

I like the concept of Jagged Alliance. The player is capable in the beginning and not "über" in the end. I think you could build upwards from that and make a game in which social ties and inflence are actually as powerful(important) or more powerful(important) than the players stats/levels.

Or you simply make an action-RPG that actually focuses on fun combat and not on lvl-grind + fat loot.

@Edward_R_Murrow: AFAIK some of the more recent IE games used a similar scaling system as Morrowind. Fight a goblin if you are low-lvl, corc mid-lvl, ogre higher-lvl, etc.
And for the record: I disliked the scaling system in Morrowind. After a while i could easily beat everything and there was no more challange.
What i heard about the G3 scaling sounded better. Enemies are always 2-3 lvls above you in more dangerous areas until they reach a certain cap. Thus certain areas will gradually become easier until they are finally managable.

 

[kingcomrade]

I like how you are basically the same guy with the same abilities and weapon selection at the beginning of Halo as you are at the end.

 

[Fez]

I think Saint made a comment before along the lines of how he likes Vogel's games, but wishes he'd keep his mouth shut when it comes to these kinds of comments.

 

[xedoc gpr]

It's his opinion, but he should probably realize that for some people, the stuff he considers boring (building up your character) is what other people would find fun in a game.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

@Edward_R_Murrow: AFAIK some of the more recent IE games used a similar scaling system as Morrowind. Fight a goblin if you are low-lvl, corc mid-lvl, ogre higher-lvl, etc.
And for the record: I disliked the scaling system in Morrowind. After a while i could easily beat everything and there was no more challange.

By more recent, you mean Icewind Dale 2, right? Unfortunately I wouldn't have noticed since I only played through 1.5 times (once normally, once through the best part, the beginning half, on heart of fury). I never noticed any level-scaling in Baldur's Gate 2 even after playing that quite a few times. There was some in the original if you imported a very high level character, but other than that I never noticed any. And I don't think it was really possible to deviate from the suggested power level in the original Icewind Dale so I never saw any, and I doubt they would have implemented it.

And I have to agree that after awhile nothing in Morrowind provided a challenge, but their ideas weren't too bad. I liked how almost all of the outside was level scaled so it provided some accessibility and you wouldn't get demolished by a superbeast 5 minutes out, but that some areas (inside the Ghostfence) and all interiors keep their pre-placed nasties. The ideas were good, it just wasn't backed up by the rest oif the game design.

 

[psycojester]

But for the lucky people who didn't read the previous column, my first big problem with RPGs is this; unlike other computer games, they almost invariably start me as an insignificant loser. Before I can do anything exciting or heroic, I have to pay my dues by spending tons of time gaining levels and proving that I am competent. My time is valuable. If I'm going to enter my fantasy world, I don't want to be a jackass in it. I want to do something cool and exciting NOW.

Because that concept worked out so well in Throne of Bhaal

 

[Shannow]

By more recent, you mean Icewind Dale 2, right? Unfortunately I wouldn't have noticed since I only played through 1.5 times (once normally, once through the best part, the beginning half, on heart of fury). I never noticed any level-scaling in Baldur's Gate 2 even after playing that quite a few times. There was some in the original if you imported a very high level character, but other than that I never noticed any. And I don't think it was really possible to deviate from the suggested power level in the original Icewind Dale so I never saw any, and I doubt they would have implemented it.

To be honest, i really don't remember. You are right that IWD2 simply made the creatures tougher and didn't bring other monsters. The system would make most sense for random non-plot-decisive encounters in BG2...
I'm 100% sure i read something about such a system in a more recent D&D game. I'm 80% sure that it was an IE game...
Were are the codex geeks when you need them?

 

[Drakron]

What I found somewhat amusing is the KotOR comment.

Ever since Jedi Knight you are hard pressed to find a Star Wars game were you are NOT a Jedi ... LucasArts done the impossible and made being a Jedi a trivial matter.

I know in the end its a matter of taste, someone people want to be "special" but some what to play a normal person that without any special skills or abilities managed to win in the end.

And right now games tend to fall into the "I am special" type of characters.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Because that concept worked out so well in Throne of Bhaal

It worked alright. Just was a little too much hack and slash. Some of the sidequests actually used the whole idea of being an epic figure pretty well. Some not so much.

I'm 100% sure i read something about such a system in a more recent D&D game. I'm 80% sure that it was an IE game...
Were are the codex geeks when you need them?

Maybe Neverwinter Nights 2 or Temple of Elemental Evil (which I would really love to try), as those are the only Dungeons and Dragons CRPGs that have come out recently, at least as far as I know.

What I found somewhat amusing is the KotOR comment.

Ever since Jedi Knight you are hard pressed to find a Star Wars game were you are NOT a Jedi ... LucasArts done the impossible and made being a Jedi a trivial matter.

I actually liked the part when you weren't a Jedi the best. It felt kind of neat, and just about everything felt useful in some way. Afterwards everything was just spamming force powers and going on a grand MacGuffin hunt.

 

[Section8]

Vogel has half a point here. Of course grinding is bad. Why should the player be doing something that isn't enjoyable simply because it enables progression of character or narrative?

However, he completely misses the point that adding stylish but superficial elements (ie lightsabres) to the same grind doesn't actually improve it, unless the player chooses to perceive it in a more positive light.

 

[Sisay]

I think Saint made a comment before along the lines of how he likes Vogel's games, but wishes he'd keep his mouth shut when it comes to these kinds of comments.

I think that was when he was talking about how great Baldur's Gate is. Maybe it's a good thing he has to operate on a low bugdet, who knows what he'd be making otherwise.

 

[cutterjohn]

What a moron.
I love Geneforge, but...he comes off as a retard. Final Fantasy XII? He thinks people who play that are his customer base?
He needs a reality check, fast.

Exactly! Thats why I threw my hands up when I read the article. I have even posted over at the Spiderweb forums just to get the point across. His sycophants will no doubt jump down my throat as soon as they see the post

I note that his own games retain these level grinding qualities to some extent. Perhaps he should play some good RPG's for a change and steal ideas from them, it would make a world of difference for him and the people that buy his games.

Sounds to me, again., like he wants to make high selling casual and/or action games, after all he sounds like he's proposing to take out everything that requires any sort of attention span and replace it with powerups and fast action.

I would also tend to support that he probably has a healthy dose of jealousy over shallower yet better selling games, e.g. Oblivion, WoW, Quake 1-4, etc. unfortunately for him he'd then also have to shell out big time for teh pretty grafix o.w. his game would be just as ignored as his decent RPG efforts...

Levelling: Personally, I usually enjoy the lower levels of most RPGs, and especially more recent RPGs as most of the skills or what have you open up through those levels, the initial quests feel like they got the most attention, etc.

He does a very poor job in the article comparing the RPG genre to various shooters, and other action games or RTS games as they have little in common and by their very nature vary much more greatly versus CRPGs than versus other genres, e.g. ARPG v. FPS, FPS v. RTS, etc. At least he didn't try to toss in a nice TB strategy game as a comparison as well, or even a halfway decent/realistic flight/sub simulator.

Grinding: The VERY worst case of grinding I have EVER seen in "RPG"s are in the MMO variety as that's all they usually are. Well, that or online pornographic fantasy chatrooms for furries and other...

As to his last comment, whining about junk loot no doubt. I'd almost support an auto-junker in some cases as some roguelikes and some other games have/had whose names escape me ATM.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Sounds to me, again., like he wants to make high selling casual and/or action games, after all he sounds like he's proposing to take out everything that requires any sort of attention span and replace it with powerups and fast action.

And how much of an attention span do you need to click on the 1957th inconsequential goblin horde? You people make it sound you need a PhD to apply for boring and repetitive combat.