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Editorial Jeff Vogel to develop God of War 3

Section8

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Look at Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. Sure, they weren't great, but at least they tried.Every game after those, dumbed down and hyped to hell.

And Baldur's Gate wasn't dumbed down and hyped to hell? Huge Baldur's Gate banners were all over the Gamespy network for years prior to release, there was the usual pre-release PR fest, and then a bunch of fawning, hyperbolic reviews. For instance:

So is anything wrong with it? Well, surely not the great sound, the excellent music, or the unique multiplayer system that lets you group together with friends to play through the entire game. The multiplayer adds an element of group cooperative playing that emulates the 'real life' role playing experience many of you are familiar with. It really resembles the feel of a youthful Sunday spent with a group of pocket protector possessing friends slaying dragons and accosting nubile female thieves wearing exotic furs. This is new to the RPG market, and the first title to offer both a comprehensive single player and multi-player game.

The only thing that aggravated me was that in one town there was a peasant named Noober.[...]
Baldur's Gate is, simply put, the best computer representation of Dungeons and Dragons ever made. It includes every set of rules that even the most rabid fan could hope for while staying focused enough to appeal to those who have never played the pen-and-paper game before.
Even with the best engine in the world though, Baldur's Gate couldn't have gotten far without a terrific storyline.

Interesting enough, the guy who wrote those last couple was later hired as the PR guy for Fallout Tactics. ;)

Or then there's the pressrelease:

#1 Most Highly Anticipated New Game, 'Baldur's Gate,' Ships!
December 21, 1998 03:16 PM
IRVINE, Calif., Dec. 21 /PRNewswire/ -- Black Isle Studios(TM), the role-playing game (RPG) division of Interplay Entertainment Corp. IPLY announced today the release of "Baldur's Gate(TM)" the number one new game title in pre-sale activity at certain mall-based stores. Electronics Boutique, Babbages and Software Etc. as well as independent consumer surveys have all reported tremendous interest in the game. The title is in the duplication process, and will begin shipping to software retailers nationwide today on five CD-ROM's for Windows(R) 95/98-based computers. "Baldur's Gate" was developed by the Alberta, Canada-based software company, BioWare Corp., and will support up to six different players in its Internet-based multi-player mode and also provides for an excellent solo play experience.

"Every quarter, GameSpot researches the PC titles market, to identify which titles are most in demand among the millions of users who use the site each month," noted Jon Epstein, president and CEO of GameSpot Inc. "Baldur's Gate has consistently climbed up the ranks since we've been tracking the game. And now, in our most recent November 1998 survey, when asked to name which title they would purchase next, our users wrote down 'Baldur's Gate' more than any other title published in 1998."

Black Isle Studios and Interplay attribute the anticipation of "Baldur's Gate" to the enormous gameplay area (five CD's and over 10,000 scrolling screens) and also the promise of a true Advanced Dungeons & Dragons(R) experience for both novice and seasoned role-playing gamers alike. Several mall-based stores reported a near frenzy for the release of the game.

"'Baldur's Gate' is definitely one of the most highly anticipated and long-awaited games of 1998. We've had very high pre-sale activity on it, and it should be a great title to end the year with," commented Bob McKenzie, director of purchasing for Babbages Etc.

"We are extremely excited about the fact that we will have Baldur's Gate to sell in 1998. We think gamers are going to be very happy that Black Isle Studios and BioWare were able to complete the game and get it out on the shelves before the end of the year," added Jerry Madaio, vice president of merchandise in Electronics Boutique's PC division.

Set in the Sword Coast region of the popular Forgotten Realms(R) AD&D campaign setting, "Baldur's Gate" takes the player on a visually dazzling adventure. It brings to life the grand traditions of a true AD&D role-playing game experience for the personal computer through cutting-edge art and loyalty to the AD&D rule set. The story begins with looming economic strife and mysterious murders terrifying the local residents of the city of "Baldur's Gate." This causes local leaders to point the finger at the neighboring nation of Amn. War seems imminent, and the player's character is thrust into the dangerous regional conflict to unravel the mystery with a party of adventurers.

Interplay Entertainment Corp. is a leading developer, publisher and distributor of interactive entertainment software for both core gamers and the mass market. Interplay currently balances its development efforts by publishing for personal computers and current generation video game consoles. Interplay, a proud member of the IDSA and Consumer Product Council, releases products through Interplay, Shiny Entertainment, Tantrum, Black Isle Studios, Interplay Sports, Flat Cat, its affiliated labels and its wholly owned subsidiary Interplay OEM, Inc. More comprehensive information on Interplay and its products is available through its worldwide web site at http://www.interplay.com.

Sound familiar?

Every game after Baldur's Gate 2 was all a giant MacGuffin quest.

And what was Baldur's Gate?

  • Go to Friendly Arm Inn.
  • Go to Nashkel. Kill "boss" at end of mine
  • Go to Bandits. Join Bandits. Kill Bandits.
  • Go to Cloakwood. Kill "boss" at end of Cloakwood mines.

...and that's about as far as I ever got, due to a combination of terminal boredom and frustration. About the only appreciable difference I can see between Baldur's Gate and later efforts is the open world, and as I understand, that was pegged back in Baldur's Gate 2.


Every game after Baldur's Gate 2 was dimbed down either with a teleport stone, unkillable party, or other such nonsense. Also there has been less and less non-combat options from the already few. It seems like lead design or something changed hands after Baldur's Gate 2....hence Neo-Bioware.

I only see a further progression and refinement of the ideals that made Baldur's gate a huge step down from Fallout. Baldur's Gate was a poorly conceived hodge-podge of ideas. Bioware borrowed extensively from existing games without any real consideration of why something worked or what made it work. It was a Frankenstein's monster that presumably held appeal for you since it borrowed ideas that you liked.

However, as Bioware have become better at what they do, they've shed the legacy aspects of their games. Each game since Baldur's Gate has been more focused on the hallmarks of Bioware games - mass-market appeal, accessibility, ease of completion, effective use of timesinks, immutable narrative, visuals and hype.

That's exactly why the "revival" of the genre that Baldur's Gate supposedly represented is horseshit. It just paved the way for similarly shallow games masquerading as RPGs.
 

EvoG

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Claw said:
OK, now I've got to ask you: What do you think Jeff meant with
I have to pay my dues by spending tons of time gaining levels and proving that I am competent.
Do you think his point was "killing rats" and generally dull, uninspired "quests" or do you think the idea was really not being engaged in an epic quest and doing "heroic" deeds.
Because that's my issue with the "quality" of RPGs. I think it's perfectly viable to play a relatiely weak, not highly regarded character who has to "pay his dues" and work his way to becoming a heroic character. It can be cool. But it's cool in a different way than playing a heroic character and being part of an "epic quest" from the start.


Yes and no...its not about two exteme ends of a spectrum. There isn't anything necessarily wrong with starting low, discovering the world and building up...there is something fundamentally 'fun' perhaps about that process since you're growing and learning the boundaries with your character. He's talking about context, and wonders why there seems to be a need for this process to be dull...tasks that have no value or meaning other than for the sake of gaining XP...and thats what I believe a lot of people here are deriding. Its not like the opposite of 'dull' is 'endangered universe needs saving!!', but rather that the things you can do to establish yourself in the game world at low level need not be simplistic just because you're weak. On that, again, why is it important that you are weak, and merely not as capable as you will be by the end? Thats where he's coming from; this idea that the game must have simple fetch and murder quests before you can get on to more engaging and interesting stuff. This has nothing to do with killing rats or other weak creatures...it has nothing to do with combat per se.
 
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Section8 said:
And Baldur's Gate wasn't dumbed down and hyped to hell? Huge Baldur's Gate banners were all over the Gamespy network for years prior to release, there was the usual pre-release PR fest, and then a bunch of fawning, hyperbolic reviews. For instance:

What game doesn't have fawning reviewers or previewers? Heck....some people gave Piece of Shit scores in the eights and nines, supposed "professional" reviewers. I'm sure you know as well as I do, if not more than I, that "professional reviewers" and their opinions are pretty much worthless, at least in the RPG genre.

My point being that Baldur's Gate wasn't hailed as the RPG to end all RPGs. Or at least ifit was....I was too busy playing Fallout and hearing about that sequel to notice. Unlike Neverwinter Nights and KOTOR which had some of the biggest marketing shitstorms this side of Oblivion.

And about being dumbed down? Not so much. It wasn't designed all too great with a lack of options for non-combat solutions and a lot of pointless dialogue, but a typical person who couldn't find Caius would probably be pretty fucked.

Interesting enough, the guy who wrote those last couple was later hired as the PR guy for Fallout Tactics. ;)

As a PR man (read: professional bullstitter) he's damn good.

Or then there's the pressrelease:

Lots o' bullshit.

Sound familiar?

Yep. Like every damn prerelease thing ever. Everybody in the media sensationalizes commercial things. Do I like it? No. Can I do anything about it? Probably not. Are there better battles to be fought? Most certanly.

And what was Baldur's Gate?

  • Go to Nashkel. Kill "boss" at end of mine
  • Go to Bandits. Join Bandits. Kill Bandits.
  • Go to Cloakwood. Kill "boss" at end of Cloakwood mines.
  • Go to Baldur's Gate. Kill Iron Throne.
  • Go to Candlekeep. Escape.
  • Incriminate and defeat Sarevok.

Fixed.

I meant MacGuffin quest as in collect the "four ancient thingamajigs" or whatnot. I wouldn't really call these terrible plot devices. They actually have some motivation behind them. They are not as good as say....a water-chip or a GECK....but they're acceptable. Better than star maps and power stones....

About the only appreciable difference I can see between Baldur's Gate and later efforts is the open world, and as I understand, that was pegged back in Baldur's Gate 2.

Sort of. They just compacted everything in Baldur's Gate 2. So now there was a bunch of content in less areas. After that it got axed for good though.

I only see a further progression and refinement of the ideals that made Baldur's gate a huge step down from Fallout.

How is it supposed to be a huge step down from Fallout? Both were in development at around the same time. Sure, it wasn't as nearly as great as Fallout....but what the hell is? That's a pretty piss-poor argument right there. Maybe a better argument would be to say that the sequel (Shadows of Amn) didn't improve on knowledge that could have been learned from Fallout (and Black Isle) quite easily. That's legitimate.

Baldur's Gate was a poorly conceived hodge-podge of ideas. Bioware borrowed extensively from existing games without any real consideration of why something worked or what made it work. It was a Frankenstein's monster that presumably held appeal for you since it borrowed ideas that you liked.

I could find myself agreeing with this. Personally I thought any shortcomings were due to some sort of internal conflict. Heck, for awhile, I was convinced that Black Isle had a huge role in the creation of Baldur's Gate. A lot of Fallout-esque writing was in Baldur's Gate. But that's just my crazy conspiracy theory side.

However, as Bioware have become better at what they do, they've shed the legacy aspects of their games. Each game since Baldur's Gate has been more focused on the hallmarks of Bioware games - mass-market appeal, accessibility, ease of completion, effective use of timesinks, immutable narrative, visuals and hype.

I can't really disagree with this too much. I'd say after Shadows of Amn though. They actually did improve a lot on the first one. At least in my outlook.

That's exactly why the "revival" of the genre that Baldur's Gate supposedly represented is horseshit. It just paved the way for similarly shallow games masquerading as RPGs.

You're dead wrong on this one. Baldur's Gate took a massive amount of resources to make and still was definitely not a truely "mainstreamed" product. Only 2 other series outside of Bioware could even be slightly construed to be "Baldur's Gate" clones and only by the virtue they used the same engine as it. If you want to put blame on anybody for ruining RPGs, go blame Blizzard. I guarantee if the Baldur's Gate beat out Diablo and Diablo 2 in sales, the RPG genre nowadays wouldn't be total shit. Diablo cost a hell of a lot less to make, sold like hotcakes, and was easy enough for anyone to get. It also masqueraded as an RPG as well. Heck, in this situation, the RPG genre wouldn't be the utopia the Codex wants, but it's a hell of a lot better than the endless Diablo clones that come out year after year in reality. Well...I wouldn't get to complain as much....and I wouldn't be able to feel so enlightened....
 

MF

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Diablo 2 certainly didn't cost a hell of a lot less to make. Blizzard's Film department alone has always had budgets that surpassed even the likes of Pixar and Dreamworks per film minute.

Besides, I enjoyed Diablo 2 (for what it was) more than Baldur's Gate.

The only RPG I really liked (besides some indie games) after Fallout was (drumroll) Arcanum. Go figure.
 

Ladonna

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I agree with Edward in regards to which game is to blame for the great dumbening: Diablow.

God I hate that game...

Its basically a pretty roguelike, with about 1/100th of the gameplay options, depth, etc.

And since this is a Vogel thread, anybody got the scoop on GF4? Anyone like it? How does it compare to his other games?

I wish the reviewers on this site got their hand off it and actually started reviewing games again. :cry:
 

MF

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I just finished Geneforge 4. It's awesome. Worth every penny. It fixes a lot of flaws from the previous Geneforge games and is just a lot of fun from start to finish. You can actually play as a pacifist for a change and avoid combat altogether if you invest points in leadership and mechanics.
 

Section8

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What game doesn't have fawning reviewers or previewers?

One whose publisher/developer doesn't play the game. I agree that the gaming media is worthless, and probably always has been. But that doesn't stop me from drawing parallels between Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights both being proclaimed the greatest RPG of all time pretty much on the day of release, though admittedly the lies and propaganda that revolved around NWN stood in much starker contrast to the truth.

My point being that Baldur's Gate wasn't hailed as the RPG to end all RPGs. Or at least ifit was....I was too busy playing Fallout and hearing about that sequel to notice. Unlike Neverwinter Nights and KOTOR which had some of the biggest marketing shitstorms this side of Oblivion.

Well, this is difficult in terms of dredging up actual proof, but I distinctly remember it being touted as the second coming, particularly as the first D&D RPG in many years, and there was a needless focus on gimmicky aspects. The one I remember most is the fact that piles of loot actually looked like what they contained, rather than just a generic "pile of loot" sprite for everything. Nevermind the fact that it had been done many times before.

And about being dumbed down? Not so much. It wasn't designed all too great with a lack of options for non-combat solutions and a lot of pointless dialogue, but a typical person who couldn't find Caius would probably be pretty fucked.

It seemed to me that it was designed with exactly that audience in mind, with the RT clusterfuck that necessitated a pause, the metric fucktons of filler combat, the childish cliches of characters, the anime narrative method of introducing the big bad end boss almost immediately, etc.

If any aspect of the game was going to fuck anybody, it was the pathfinding, but that seems to be forgiven and forgotten because real-time combat is more realistic!

I meant MacGuffin quest as in collect the "four ancient thingamajigs" or whatnot. I wouldn't really call these terrible plot devices. They actually have some motivation behind them. They are not as good as say....a water-chip or a GECK....but they're acceptable. Better than star maps and power stones...

Yeah, I got what you meant by macguffin, but what I was pointing out was the idea that most of Baldur's Gate involved going somewhere and defeating the boss. Even
the "Go to the Friendly Arm Inn" bit had a "boss fight" just to get in the fucking door.

Fast forward to NWN, and each step along the way had four boss fights that could be undertaken in any order, and then one end boss for each chapter. See how that can be construed as a logical step and an improvement upon Baldur's Gate's single linear series of boss fights?

How is it supposed to be a huge step down from Fallout? Both were in development at around the same time. Sure, it wasn't as nearly as great as Fallout....but what the hell is? That's a pretty piss-poor argument right there. Maybe a better argument would be to say that the sequel (Shadows of Amn) didn't improve on knowledge that could have been learned from Fallout (and Black Isle) quite easily. That's legitimate.

Fallout was released about 14-15 months prior to Baldur's Gate and already had a sequel, which had been out for a few months itself. Not to mention that Interplay/Black Isle were ultimately responsible for the Fallouts, and collaboraters on Baldur's Gate, though admittedly I don't know a whole lot about that relationship.

But regardless, my comment was to do with the design ideals of Baldur's Gate, compared with the design ideals of Fallout. I'm saying that Baldur's Gate was designed from the grond up to be inferior to Fallout. Just like how many of us were saying that Oblivion was going to be a huge step down from Daggerfall and Morrowind, long before it was even released.

It's not a question of what could be learned, it's a question of where the priorities lay. Fallout's were in the right place. Baldur's Gate was too concerned with mass-appeal, and each consecutive game from Bioware since then has been more successful at achieving that ideal.

You're dead wrong on this one. Baldur's Gate took a massive amount of resources to make and still was definitely not a truely "mainstreamed" product. Only 2 other series outside of Bioware could even be slightly construed to be "Baldur's Gate" clones and only by the virtue they used the same engine as it. If you want to put blame on anybody for ruining RPGs, go blame Blizzard. [...]

If Baldur's Gate wasn't a truly mainstream product, I think it's probably fair to say that's a failing on Bioware's part, rather than a concerted effort to the contrary.

As for Baldur's Gate clones, I agree that there aren't too many that try to mimic it exactly. However, there are plenty of games since that have used the same bastard real-time system with its kludgy band-aid fix of a pause button, and plenty of games that have seen fit to elevate audio/visual appeal over gameplay.

Now Diablo is almost a valid point. Except that even since it's release it was pretty much universally acknowledged as an action/RPG hybrid, and has spawned a neverending chain of "Diablo clones". It created a new RPG-like standard that can stand in relative isolation to RPGs. Same goes for MMOGs. Even if they are labelled RPGs, almost everyone is quick to differentiate them as a completely different paradigm.

Baldur's Gate on the other hand fits what people are willing to label as an RPG, even though it contains very few strong RPG elements. The fact that so many gamers have effectively said "Yes, we're willing to accept this action/adventure with RPG elements as an RPG" has paved the way for further dilution of what actually makes an RPG a good RPG.

But anyway. I don't share the idea the Bioware have ushered in a new, post BG era, since they were always commercial sellouts for me. :D
 

Ladonna

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I just finished Geneforge 4. It's awesome. Worth every penny. It fixes a lot of flaws from the previous Geneforge games and is just a lot of fun from start to finish. You can actually play as a pacifist for a change and avoid combat altogether if you invest points in leadership and mechanics.

Seriously? So Vogel is actually getting better? nice. Might have to get this one eventually.


Baldur's Gate on the other hand fits what people are willing to label as an RPG, even though it contains very few strong RPG elements. The fact that so many gamers have effectively said "Yes, we're willing to accept this action/adventure with RPG elements as an RPG" has paved the way for further dilution of what actually makes an RPG a good RPG.

Right. I sorta see what you mean here. Are you referring to a gentle slope into retardedness rather than a leap of a cliff scenario?
 

Drakron

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Except that is bullshit, BG was not much different that RPGs of its time.

Also it was AD&D 2nd Ed, that system was not D&D 3rd Ed ... social skills were not part of the system so blaming it to not be Fallout is retarded since it could NOT be it.
 

Ladonna

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KC....

Typical of a low brow like you to prefer click click clickety click. After all, if it isn't defending your non working Japanese rifle or recycling the same math joke over and over again, you would need something that fits your intellectual abilities: Diablow does nicely :wink:

Now go and get a tissue off mama, and stop bothering me.
 

Volourn

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"nonsense. Also there has been less and less non-combat options from the already few. It seems like lead design or something changed hands after Baldur's Gate 2....hence Neo-Bioware."

Except BIO's own games have added way more non combat options. Don't be stupid.


"social skills were not part of the system"

Sure, they were. They'r ecalled non wepaon proficiencies, or secondary skills. Or they were an ability score known as charisma. Or intelligence. Or charisma.


"Heck, for awhile, I was convinced that Black Isle had a huge role in the creation of Baldur's Gate. A lot of Fallout-esque writing was in Baldur's Gate. But that's just my crazy conspiracy theory side."

BIS was the publisher.They were in charge mainly of music, voice overs, and QA. The writing, combat, grpahics, writing, characters etal. for good or ill was BIO's doing.


p.S. Don't listen to Section 8. He was involved with FO Tatics. HAHAHAHA!
 

EvoG

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MF said:
You can actually play as a pacifist for a change and avoid combat altogether if you invest points in leadership and mechanics.

How is this managed? Do you actually avoid all combat, or are you implying, with leadership skills, that you have followers that did the dirty deeds(thus avoiding combat indirectly)?

Fact is, my girlfriend played (and adored) Arcanum, having actually finished it, and her character was the most attractive half elf she could manage. IIRC, at some point her charsima and associated stats were so high, everyone was in love with her immediately. She was a mage so she speciallized in summoning and would ultimately have an army of 12 NPC's, a familiar and summons including two ogres and orcs and the like. It was brilliant to watch how she didn't even have to do anything but watch her 'boys' trounce everything in sight while she busied herself with just talking to people. It was practically autopilot; she didn't want to be bothered with combat, let alone TB combat so she was able to manage an adventure game more or less and leave the killin's to the others. :D
 

MF

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EvoG said:
How is this managed? Do you actually avoid all combat, or are you implying, with leadership skills, that you have followers that did the dirty deeds?

Leadership is more like charisma, it enables you to persuade others in dialogue as well as let you control certain minds. You can get through a lot of situations by talking your way out of it. You can even gain many benefits by being very convincing. If you want to do the pacifist route, however, you will also need to invest in mechanics in order to disarm traps. Sometimes you can talk your way past the foozles, and sometimes there is a trapped alternate path. Sometimes it's both.

Every now and then, you can also get through an area via stealth, which is new in Vogel's games and, dare I say, implemented quite well.

About followers : That is actually the way you play most of Geneforge. You use your creations to fight for you. (Unless you're a guardian, which is less interesting to play) I don't consider that the pacifist route.

The Arcanum anecdote is quite familiar, by the way. I played Arcanum as a maxed-beauty and charisma bow-toting half-elf the first time through and had the same thing going on with all the followers. I even had everyone in smoking jackets just to look cool. Who needs armor when you got three Ogres to soak up the damage?
 

EvoG

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MF said:
Every now and then, you can also get through an area via stealth, which is new in Vogel's games and, dare I say, implemented quite well.

Implented well? Is it stat based or is there an environmental aspect?
 

Jason

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Not really. When an enemy spots you, there's a pause before it goes hostile so you have a chance to get out of its field of vision and it will carry on without attacking.
 

mister lamat

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Role-Player said:
Nothing beats playing as a suave Gnome with a Top Hat who carries around brute bodyguards wearing smoking jackets.

you forgot the 'fancy shoes'. that and the looking glass rifle was essential for a gentleman of discerning tastes.
 

Drakron

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Volourn said:
"social skills were not part of the system"

Sure, they were. They'r ecalled non wepaon proficiencies, or secondary skills. Or they were an ability score known as charisma. Or intelligence. Or charisma.

Oh yes, I am looking at my PHB and yes, they existed but the PHB advises to the issues that comes from using the.

I can see they were a forerunner to 3rd ed skill and feat system but at that point they had issues, also note the chapter 5 have the word "Optional".
 

Azarkon

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His point about MMOs is stupid (what does he think MMOs are about?), but his point about CRPGs is understandable. The push these days for single-player is towards an exciting experience from start to finish, and while the feeling of being underpowered can be fun, the fed-ex quests and rat-killing sessions are cliches that could use some serious rethinking.

If I'm right, then I don't think Vogel did a very good job explaining his point. In the article he came off as some uber-gamer jock who cared only about "EPIC HEROIC ACTHION" when really the salient point is to get rid of the tedious, low-level content and putting in more interesting stuff in its place. That's a good suggestion; the idea that the only "interesting" gameplay is "EPIC HEROIC ACTHION" is not.
 

Claw

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EvoG said:
Yes and no...its not about two exteme ends of a spectrum.
What are you talking about? You must be misunderstanding me, I would know if I were talking about ends of a spectrum.

There isn't anything necessarily wrong with starting low, discovering the world and building up...there is something fundamentally 'fun' perhaps about that process since you're growing and learning the boundaries with your character.
Dude, we agreed on that like two pages ago. Can you please NOT repeat the obvious? You're planting so many trees I can't see the forest.

Explanation of the last statement, in ironic self-contradiction:
Try to keep your posts laconic. I know it's not easy. I often feel the need to add further explanations after the actual point, out of fear that the person I am talking to won't understand me. So I add explanations and examples until their volume dwarfs my original statement. And in the end, someone cuts out part of the explanation and treats it like a point onto itself, which it isn't. You know, like killing rats.
We should both aim to be laconic, lest we obfuscate our opinions.


He's talking about context, and wonders why there seems to be a need for this process to be dull...tasks that have no value or meaning other than for the sake of gaining XP...and thats what I believe a lot of people here are deriding. Its not like the opposite of 'dull' is 'endangered universe needs saving!!', but rather that the things you can do to establish yourself in the game world at low level need not be simplistic just because you're weak.
I call that a matter of quality. I called it a matter of quality, and you disagreed. Now I am waiting for you to explain what matter it really is, if not quality. Instead, you basically describe an issue of quality. It's right there: "dull...tasks that have no value or meaning (...)" That's poor quality in my book.

On that, again, why is it important that you are weak, and merely not as capable as you will be by the end?
Maybe it's just simple design. I sometimes wonder if CRPG developers are really dumb, or maybe try to cater to an audience they consider dumb.

Thats where he's coming from; this idea that the game must have simple fetch and murder quests before you can get on to more engaging and interesting stuff. This has nothing to do with killing rats or other weak creatures...it has nothing to do with combat per se.
No, it has something to do with the "quality of early quests etc." or "opening content" as Dhruin put it. Killing rats was just an example.

Your reply to that was:

EvoG said:
I dont believe what he was saying is as simple as "better quality" for starting characters. If that were the case, I think he would've just said that and ranted on quality in todays games. He 'was' talking about the mundane things you do do as a low level character, quality aside, and rather, enjoyed getting to the visceral elements right away in other games.
See, this sounds to me like equating "visceral" with "good" - "quality aside"? That sounds pretty shallow. That sounds like stupidly killing lots of stuff is good, and playing a more mundane character like in the first chapter of Gothic is bad, even though it's well done.
Seriously, either he is an idiot, or you are, or you need to explain it better.
 

EvoG

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Okay a couple things Claw before I build my new rig (yay!):

The two ends of said spectrum are you either being a lowly farmer boy killing rats (weak and dull), or being the heroic savior of the universe killing starships (exciting and epic).

The 'starting low' comment was just me establishing (again) that there isn't really anything wrong with starting now and I obviously enjoy it enough...that wasn't necessarily directed at you...just a comment.

Lastly, the distinction of quality vs. context I'm making is that "quality" refers to how well the game is built. Context is the substance of what you are doing in the game. One 'could' argue that something that is boring is low in quality, of course, but I believe Jeff was referring to the context of what he's doing in the game. In other words no matter how well done the rat killing, item getting is, it will never 'feel' fun or epic.
 

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