Editorial Jeff Vogel to develop God of War 3

[Diogo Ribeiro]

 

[MF]

I don't want to be a Jedi. In fact, I liked the whole Indiana Jones thing going on with Kyle Katarn in the first Dark Forces game and especially the first half of Jedi Knight.

You've got some schmuck coming at you with Jedi mumbo jumbo, and what do you do? You grab your gun and blast the Force right out of that pansy. That felt way more awesome than all the awkward lightsabre swinging in the other Star Wars games. (No swordfighting game has been as good as Die By The Sword as far as gameplay mechanics go)

That said, action games throw you into some action right away, because that's what they are. You can shoot a few demons and zombies in Doom's first map and finish it in thirty seconds. The next map has more demons, and can be done in fifty seconds. That 's the curve right there. The action is the same.

Sure, Half-Life starts you off with a monorail-ride to show off the credits and some scientist sequence to introduce you to the story, but after that it's survival horror followed by shoot 'em up gameplay.

RPG's are too often designed so that you start out as a level 1 rat slayer and end up as a level 40 god. This is just poor design. If they started Half-Life off with five levels of scientists and jump puzzles, that would have been quite pathetic as well.

The flaws Vogel mentions are not intrinsic to RPG's. Designers may be more easily tempted into incorporating those flaws into an RPG than they would have been if they were designing an action game, but in the end, they are individual design flaws.

 

[mister lamat]

wow... his articles are just as rehashed and shitty as his games... who knew!?!

 

[Naked Ninja]

The way I look at it, its all a matter of pacing. Pacing a game well is like pacing music well. Now, I'm not up on my music terminology, so bear with me, but almost all music has a crescendo, a point that it builds up to, then comes down from, then maybe goes up to again, etc. Same with movies and books. There are the calmer bits, there are more exciting bits, and then there is the build up between them.

The thing is, none of those parts really work without the others. You can't have a song that is all "peaks". Likewise, a song that doesn't build up to anything is often boring. Its the whole "if everyone is special, no one is" concept, without the less exciting parts, you can't actually have "peaks". The one defines the other.

The problem comes in when RPG makers try to meet some type of predefined length for their game. They have a certain number of peaks and a certain number of valleys, but together they still don't have enough material to meet their target game length. So they add in more valleys. More lows. Because they are easier to create than the peaks. But it has the same effect as it would on a music track. It ruins the pacing, throws off the balance. The player stops trying to reach the next peak and starts complaining about the filler.

Jeff is a bit silly to use this argument in relation to RPGs, because any game can suffer from this problem. I suppose its just because the RPG genre has some of the worst culprits.

 

[Claw]

I'm beat down tired so this will be short, but Claw, while I think we're in agreement, I dont believe what he was saying is as simple as "better quality" for starting characters. If that were the case, I think he would've just said that and ranted on quality in todays games.

Maybe you're right. I thought he just doesn't see the possible quality in starting low, paying your dues etc. since it's not generally done well (killing rats et al.), but he doesn't really say that.

I still think it IS the wrong focus. Although I admit that for me the Jedi Knight games are about swinging a lightsaber and using the force, that's not (only) because Jedis are cool, but because it's different. I'm faily disinterested in a StarWars-themed shooter. I don't want to play a leet hero-dude who kicks ass for the sake of being totally awesome to complensate for my mundane RealLifeâ„¢.

So maybe he needs a kick in the groin after all or at least show us how cool RPGs without "trash" where you do "exciting stuff" from the start are. I don't really know his games, but I keep hearing complaints about boring combat and treadmilling, so... do as I say, not as I do?

 

[Kraszu]

Although I admit that for me the Jedi Knight games are about swinging a lightsaber and using the force, that's not (only) because Jedis are cool, but because it's different. I'm faily disinterested in a StarWars-themed shooter

They are different just becouse of settings, fighting whit storm troopers/other sw enemies is good becouse you can see bolts and avoid them. I like star wars theme shooters becouse of that, bah I was even using blasters sometimes just to fight whit it even through lightsaber would be better (sometimes blaster are faster to do the job but it is much easier to die), because when you got it there almost no circumstances when something else is better to use.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

I sort of know what this guy is talking about, but he uses godawful examples.

God of War is basically, in essence, a start-off weak as hell and be killing a god by the end, just like he complains about. There is a huge gap in strength at the beginning to strength at the end. Your health more than doubles, and so does your magic juice. And if you don't upgrade your weapons, you'll hardly do any damage. The only thing it does well is make you think you are killing something big. The hydra in the first level is nothing more than a glorified rat-killing. It's the illusion that counts though. It doesn't feel like you are killing rats, but in essence, you pretty much are.

I think Mr. Vogel has been playing one too many action games, because he's trying to stick an action game concept into CRPGs.

 

[sabishii]

I don't disagree that this is a problem... but how is this the "first big problem"? It's a problem, but a problem I can easily ignore in most games. I'd think the "first big problem" would be the lack of roleplaying in role-playing games. But I guess not.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

God of War is basically, in essence, a start-off weak as hell and be killing a god by the end, just like he complains about. There is a huge gap in strength at the beginning to strength at the end. Your health more than doubles, and so does your magic juice. And if you don't upgrade your weapons, you'll hardly do any damage.

Yes, but the core mechanics are still the same. You can very much finish the game without extensively developing your character. Growth is there to give you new or more powerful ways to deal with combat - but the point is combat will always be a challenge regardless of wheter Kratos is a weak kitten or a demigod. Even with a given skill fully developed, the enemies are still tricky to manage.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Yes, but the core mechanics are still the same. You can very much finish the game without extensively developing your character.

If you are skilled in twitch-reflexes. In essence, player skill surpasses character skill.

Growth is there to give you new or more powerful ways to deal with combat - but the point is combat will always be a challenge regardless of wheter Kratos is a weak kitten or a demigod.

That's player-skill dependant as well.

Even with a given skill fully developed, the enemies are still tricky to manage.

Square, square, triangle. Maybe use Posiedon's Rage to clear out really big groups of skeletons. Lather, rinse, repeat.

My point is only that God of War was a terrible example. It wasn't a great action game compared to older ones (Metroid, Mega Man, Castlevania) and contemporaries (especially Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry). It's the Oblivion of the action game genre.

A much better example of instant large, important fights might have been some of the Legend of Zelda series. You get to fight things that aren't boring "kill the rats" for experience things, the pacing is pretty good, and character advancement is sort-of well balanced.

If you take out advancement of the character, or minamalize it, something has to fill the gap in meeting the difficulty curve of combat, and that's player skill. Whether it be twitch skills, strategies plus tactics, or exploiting cheesey combat. If you take out the difficulty curve and make any combat perpetually at the same difficulty level, and that's getting into Oblivion's territory. And as far as I know, that's not good.

Not saying the idea of removing pointless "rat-killing" is bad, just that I think making smaller, easier fights that are earlier in the game have an illusion of being more important (a la Icewind Dale) is probably better than making huge modifications to the whole concept of character advancement and the difficulty curve. Just me though.

 

[Lurkar]

I believe that's what the complaint is about though - how it looks, how strong and important you seem to be, and in this, he's fairly correct. He's not saying games should start you off as a god and finish as some rediculous destroyer of gods. He's saying you shouldn't start off killing rats and dust bunnies. Instead, make the player feel powerful from the beginning. For example, compare Geneforge four and Avernum four. In Avernum, you're just another group of ho-hum adventurers to start off. Well, time to clear another cave of goblins. In Geneforge four, however, Shit Is Going Down right from the start, allies are dropping left and right...and them right after it's time to use the Geneforge and resculpt your entire being. It's that hook in the beginning I believe he's talking about - you get the player to start off going "Holy shit, this is awesome! I want to do and play this!" God of War is mentioned because of how well it does this. Yes, the beginning monsters are hilariously weak, and the hydra is a complete pushover. But it feels like it's this big, epic battle.

 

[Drakron]

And how many RPGs do that ... I do not recall any recent RPG that gives "the rats", IWD2 even joked with that.

His bitching about MMORPGs is stupid, MMORPGs are all about tricking the player to think the real content is over there and the player grinds to reach it without realizing there is no real content, just more of the same but by that time he already made friends and will keep playing not for the "real content" but because of his network of friends.

If MMORPGs had no grind players would catch up real fast to the fact they are playing to be playing co-op and ditch it before the friendship network was established.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I don't disagree with that Edward, but the point isn't so much about player skill - it's about creating combat scenarios that feel fresh and challenging despite the relative power behind the driving force (ie, player or character).

 

[EvoG]

Hell RP, its not even limited to just combat; lets have scenarios that are less about how much you suck or how much a novice you are or how far you have to go because of your suckiness, but in fact lets make the fact that the player is an amnesiac noob irrelevent and put him into interesting interactions. Think about Mass Effect...you start off as the captain of a starship and one of the last humans in existence (unless I misunderstood). Even if there is room to grow and you're perhaps weaker than you'll end up, thats still an exciting way to start a new game and a new role.

 

[Zomg]

I thought God of War was about killing minotaur reskins and putting all the big money content at the front and end of the game to fry the brains of game reviewers with the serial positioning effect.

 

[Drakron]

You certainly misunderstand Mass Effect EvoG ... yes you start as Shepard but humankind is not "doomed", its simply starting its place in the universe community.

Of course its going down the "save the galaxy route" anyway but ...

Also lets not forget about KotOR that was making the player using a "I am special" character that is more powerful that the rest, overall it fall in its face for several reasons.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Hell RP, its not even limited to just combat; lets have scenarios that are less about how much you suck or how much a novice you are or how far you have to go because of your suckiness, but in fact lets make the fact that the player is an amnesiac noob irrelevent and put him into interesting interactions. Think about Mass Effect...you start off as the captain of a starship and one of the last humans in existence (unless I misunderstood). Even if there is room to grow and you're perhaps weaker than you'll end up, thats still an exciting way to start a new game and a new role.

What do you want to bet that you are a lvl 1 character with just enough powers to defeat a space rat?

BG: you are a Bhaal spawn, your powers are mighty, your lvl is 1.
KOTOR: you are a fucking Sith Lord, your powers are mighty, your lvl is 1. Even when you remember what you are and have enough powers to wipe out the entire Jedi Council and the Korriban Academy, you still need to seek the entrance as a lowly student, etc.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

What do you want to bet that you are a lvl 1 character with just enough powers to defeat a space rat?

BG: you are a Bhaal spawn, your powers are mighty, your lvl is 1.
KOTOR: you are a fucking Sith Lord, your powers are mighty, your lvl is 1. Even when you remember what you are and have enough powers to wipe out the entire Jedi Council and the Korriban Academy, you still need to seek the entrance as a lowly student, etc.

The point about KOTOR is dead on. It makes no sense whatsoever. Neo-Bioware did a terrible job there. It makes so much sense for some dude all about power and exerting it as much as possible to further your own ends to infiltrate an academy instead of kill the leaders and take over.....

Baldur's Gate, it was kind of justifiable. Maybe Bhaal-blood gave you more power to develop into a superhuman killing machine. It didn't have to make you a superhuman at birth Kind of lame, but it makes some sense, and is mildly justifiable.

Though I bet Mass Effect will share so many Baldur's Gate similarities, because Neo-Bioware can't help but rehash all their decent plot points, characters, and scenarios from Baldur's Gate whilst adding in all the ridiculous things from Neverwinter Nights like find the 4 MacGuffins, the Neo-Bioware morality of getting paid for the same thing the good guy did being evil, and a good/evil slider with no room for any "gray area".

So I expect space rat killing, a hologram combat simulation against certain things, and two wackjobs who attack you with nothing but a knife in the first part of Mass Effect.

 

[Claw]

They are different just becouse of settings, fighting whit storm troopers/other sw enemies is good becouse you can see bolts and avoid them.

Meh. My shooter of choice is UT anyway, so that's hardly a big plus. Although the Troopers mof for UT is pretty cool.

 

[Section8]

Neo-Bioware

Is this supposed to imply that Bioware now are different to Bioware ten years ago? Seems to me their priorities are still placing too much emphasis on the audio/visual component of their games, and dumbing down the actual gameplay while labelling it innovation. Oh, that and spewing forth hype.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Neo-Bioware

Is this supposed to imply that Bioware now are different to Bioware ten years ago? Seems to me their priorities are still placing too much emphasis on the audio/visual component of their games, and dumbing down the actual gameplay while labelling it innovation. Oh, that and spewing forth hype.

Look at Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. Sure, they weren't great, but at least they tried. Every game after those, dumbed down and hyped to hell. Every game after Baldur's Gate 2 was all a giant MacGuffin quest. Every game after Baldur's Gate 2 was dimbed down either with a teleport stone, unkillable party, or other such nonsense. Also there has been less and less non-combat options from the already few. It seems like lead design or something changed hands after Baldur's Gate 2....hence Neo-Bioware.

 

[EvoG]

What do you want to bet that you are a lvl 1 character with just enough powers to defeat a space rat?

BG: you are a Bhaal spawn, your powers are mighty, your lvl is 1.
KOTOR: you are a fucking Sith Lord, your powers are mighty, your lvl is 1. Even when you remember what you are and have enough powers to wipe out the entire Jedi Council and the Korriban Academy, you still need to seek the entrance as a lowly student, etc.

Okay I believe this is getting confused a bit, what with the impression of low-level rpg combat, action games and narrative context.

Regardless if you start relatively weak in ME, its a great setup to the story; it sounds important and interesting...and it was merely an example.

You will fight lower level creatures, so let them be space rats, I was just trying to make a point about being a jedi, not having to kill rats to EARN my way to being a jedi. The killing of space rats was derision to the old cliche...but really space rats sound kinda cool the more I say "space rats".

In God of War, while you fight enemies that are easier than the later ones, they're not boring. You're engaged in the epic scale of your task and you do cool stuff right away (with grapples and takedowns).

In other words, I don't believe (as Jeff apparently doesn't) that we should have to do seemingly menial tasks because we're low level, before we can enjoy neat stuff. Give us neat stuff, just adjust the gameplay to suit the skill level of both the character and the player.

Also, when you anticipate a vast spread of growth for the player, from level 1 to level 20, you're asking for a lot of necessary distinction in gameplay along the breadth of those levels. Why do RPG's require you go from absolutely nothing to a very powerful something? I agree that low level gameplay is perhaps more fun, but why is this ultimately necessary? Just like my old thread about numberless systems, its this obession people have defining RPG's in this very rigid metric of how these games MUST be designed.

 

[Claw]

You will fight lower level creatures, so let them be space rats, I was just trying to make a point about being a jedi, not having to kill rats to EARN my way to being a jedi. The killing of space rats was derision to the old cliche...but really space rats sound kinda cool the more I say "space rats".

In God of War, while you fight enemies that are easier than the later ones, they're not boring. You're engaged in the epic scale of your task and you do cool stuff right away (with grapples and takedowns).

In other words, I don't believe (as Jeff apparently doesn't) that we should have to do seemingly menial tasks because we're low level, before we can enjoy neat stuff. Give us neat stuff, just adjust the gameplay to suit the skill level of both the character and the player.

OK, now I've got to ask you: What do you think Jeff meant with

I have to pay my dues by spending tons of time gaining levels and proving that I am competent.

Do you think his point was "killing rats" and generally dull, uninspired "quests" or do you think the idea was really not being engaged in an epic quest and doing "heroic" deeds.
Because that's my issue with the "quality" of RPGs. I think it's perfectly viable to play a relatiely weak, not highly regarded character who has to "pay his dues" and work his way to becoming a heroic character. It can be cool. But it's cool in a different way than playing a heroic character and being part of an "epic quest" from the start.

 

[Lurkar]

Hell RP, its not even limited to just combat; lets have scenarios that are less about how much you suck or how much a novice you are or how far you have to go because of your suckiness, but in fact lets make the fact that the player is an amnesiac noob irrelevent and put him into interesting interactions. Think about Mass Effect...you start off as the captain of a starship and one of the last humans in existence (unless I misunderstood). Even if there is room to grow and you're perhaps weaker than you'll end up, thats still an exciting way to start a new game and a new role.

What do you want to bet that you are a lvl 1 character with just enough powers to defeat a space rat?

BG: you are a Bhaal spawn, your powers are mighty, your lvl is 1.
KOTOR: you are a fucking Sith Lord, your powers are mighty, your lvl is 1. Even when you remember what you are and have enough powers to wipe out the entire Jedi Council and the Korriban Academy, you still need to seek the entrance as a lowly student, etc.

At least they TRIED to make the Bhaal spawn bit make sense. "Yeah, the blood doesn't matter until you actually start killing people." He IS the god of Murder, it works.

KotOR was just amazingly fucking retarded. I'm trying to think really hard of anything that redeems the game, and I'm coming up with nothing. They even turned a perfectly decent lesbian jedi into some fucking furry.

 

[Nog Robbin]

In other words, I don't believe (as Jeff apparently doesn't) that we should have to do seemingly menial tasks because we're low level, before we can enjoy neat stuff. Give us neat stuff, just adjust the gameplay to suit the skill level of both the character and the player.

Steady on, otherwise you could end up with the "constant challenge" effect of OB and the chance of facing clan fear, scamps and dremora at level one (albeit weak named versions of the very same creatures). :D

I agree with your other point though - if growth wasn't such a dramatic feature it wouldn't be such a problem.