Preview ToEE preview at ActionTrip

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Temple of Elemental Evil

There's a <a href="http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/thetempleofelementalevil.phtml">lengthy preview</a> of <A href="http://www.greyhawkgame.com">Temple of Elemental Evil</a> over at <A href="http://www.actiontrip.com">ActionTrip</a>, which covers about everything known so far about the title by <a href="http://www.troikagames.com">Troika</a>.
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<blockquote>It's no surprise that the game uses isometric graphics. This is, by all accounts, a great advantage, considering Troika's experience with that kind of technique (i.e. their involvement with the Fallout series and Arcanum). <u>Although slightly outdated, the isometric view always proves ideal for complex and intricate gameplay mechanics of RPG's</u>. In any case, we were pleased to have seen such a huge variety of colorful visual effects that are achieved through dynamic lighting, solid particle effects, and realistic fog and smoke. The game will be taking us through an amazing variety of unique-looking environments (check out the trailer and screenshot gallery). Also, I think you'll agree that character art and model design is a very important aspect of any RPG. From what we've seen, characters were precisely drawn, well-animated, and then transferred into the game with meticulousness and great skill (courtesy of lead artist Mike McCarthy and lead designer Tim Cain, and of course the rest of the creative team at Troika).</blockquote>
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There you have it, the isometric view is outdated.
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Thanks, <b>Dan</b>!

 

[EEVIAC]

On a further note, this game may not be the only project in the pipeline for Troika Games. Recent reports have indicated that if all goes well with The Temple of Elemental Evil, Troika may begin work on a remake of another Dungeons & Dragons classic - Against the Giants. Still, we'll have to wait a bit longer to find out more about that one. For the time being we turn our eyes to TToEE, which is due out this October.

Does anyone know if that's idle speculation or has it been vaguely confirmed? I really don't want to see Troika trundling out new D&D modules every 18 months, mainly because I'm not a big fantasy fan. I was really hoping Troika's next game would be based on their own intelectual property.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

Am I the only one who found this a bit odd:

"The game pauses once in battle mode, so you'll have plenty of time to issue commands and act according to the intricate set of the D&D rules."

seems a rather conspicous attempt to avoid mentioning (cue omnious voice) the dreaded turn based!
And what a relief to know that isometric is dead. Now I can skip so many games that I might have otherwise played 'cause they are officially outdated.
Still a pretty favorable preview even if nothing new is revealed - the more positive press the better I say.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I wonder how a point of view can beomce outdated? Although if that's the case, how long before the fIrst person perspective is out of date?

I really don't want to see Troika trundling out new D&D modules every 18 months, mainly because I'm not a big fantasy fan. I was really hoping Troika's next game would be based on their own intelectual property.

I tend to agree. Although a company producing solid D&D CRPG modules would be good, a new one every 18 months or so that allows you to progress your character. On the other hand, I feel Troika always has the opportunity to expand their ability. Making D&D games might be something that gets worked on by one team in Troika, while another team can go off and make a space CRPG or something else.

I'd like to see Troika expand into a large, but stable company that can produce a number and variety of games.

 

[Psilon]

A large Troika making a space RPG would be great for once I get my degree and hit the job market. It would also be excellent to have a Troika space RPG.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

If the only thing Troika was putting out were DnD modules - then yeah that would suck. Still for my fantasy RPG needs I'd rather it be Troika then anyone else at this point (except for Vogel). I like DnD and I would like to see Against the Giants as done by Troika; if there were one team devoted to putting out a DnD game every 18 months (or whatever) then I could at least count on probably one good RPG every 18 months. Moreover if it helps them become financially stable such that they can make anything else they want then all the better. Not to mention (notice how I am not mentioning it?) it might help repopularize tb if they sold well.

But an original-setting non-fantasy RPG from Troika would fucking rock

 

[Jed]

I wonder how a point of view can beomce outdated? Although if that's the case, how long before the fIrst person perspective is out of date?

Two and a half years ago.

I hope Tim does the Giants and Vault of the Drow, just like he said he wants to. I also hope Troika makes well-deserved bank off the DnD license and buys the SPECIAL license from Interplay and makes us all really, really happy with some sci-fi CRPG action. Preferably something with a robot sidekick.

 

[Spazmo]

Hmm. I am torn into two halves here. On the one hand, I'm a great big D&D geek, so I want to see lots of good D&D CRPGs, and Tim Cain is the man to do it.

On the other hand, I want to see Tim Cain do other stuff. After Arcanum, I want to see what other brilliant ideas have been gestating in the back of his mind since he started Troika. I think the best outcome might be for Tim to finish ToEE and perhaps leave sequels in the hands of another lead designer, with himself moving on to a non-liscenced project. On the other hand, he does love D&D, so we'll have to see what he decides to do.

Now I'd like to address something that I've been pondering for some time. The space RPG. I know I've been saying for a while I'd like to see Tim Cain try his hand at a nice space opera planet-hopping sci-fi game, but reading about KOTOR these past weeks has got me thinking. Is it really possible to make a game where you can go to any planet in a galaxy or universe and really make it non-linear? The developers couldn't possibly design a whole galaxy's worth of planets without going Daggerfall-style, but how can they plausibly force the player to go to a given set of pre-designed planets without sacrificing linearity? At worst, we get a very linear game like KOTOR or BG, at best, we get a contrived plot device like some kind of gigantic force field that blocks off all but six or so planets and limits the running around in space aspect of the game.

Anyone else have any ideas on the subject?

 

[Deathy]

Wormholes as a form of travel tend to address this problem fairly well, you could have a small number of systems that could be visited, and that would allow the designers to craft each world fairly well.
Of course, you could also go the Elite way, and make much of the galaxy unexplored and relatively boring.

There's a lot to be said for a game that would take place in one star system as well.

None of these ideas really fit your whole galactic space opera ideal, but they still could do a damn fine job of a space RPG.

 

[EEVIAC]

I like DnD and I would like to see Against the Giants as done by Troika; if there were one team devoted to putting out a DnD game every 18 months (or whatever) then I could at least count on probably one good RPG every 18 months. Moreover if it helps them become financially stable such that they can make anything else they want then all the better. Not to mention (notice how I am not mentioning it?) it might help repopularize tb if they sold well.

Very true. I've read that Tim has said he'd like Troika to have one more team, and that team could be put to work making quality D&D modules. I think the reason I'm not a huge fantasy fan is that I haven't really played any good D&D CRPG's and have never played the PnP version. I love Avernum and Diablo is a guilty pleasure, so its not the fault of the setting.

I'd still rather a modern/sci-fi/(maybe)post-apoc original RPG, and I second the call for robots. Starflight had them.

As for the "isometric is outdated" comment, that's a little like saying RT is outdated because Pong is "like so 1970's!" The previewer's caveat that "the isometric view always proves ideal for complex and intricate gameplay mechanics of RPG's" is spot on, even though its fairly pointless to try to validate the only viable party-based CRPG viewpoint. Even in a 3D game, and especially with a party, you will still invariably set up your view to be somewhat isometric, as it allows you the greatest fore distance while allowing some lattitude at the back for formation and positioning. NWN, for all its 3D-ness was still, essentially, played in an isometric view.

If anyone can come up with a better viewpoint than isometric, I'd like to hear it. FP only works when you're a single character and even then doesn't provide enough peripheral vision, 3rdP over-the-shoulder gives you better field of vision but still impedes use of a party.

The developers couldn't possibly design a whole galaxy's worth of planets without going Daggerfall-style, but how can they plausibly force the player to go to a given set of pre-designed planets without sacrificing linearity? At worst, we get a very linear game like KOTOR or BG, at best, we get a contrived plot device like some kind of gigantic force field that blocks off all but six or so planets and limits the running around in space aspect of the game.

Simple. Base it in (or on) our solar system, and make space mean something. If there were no warp drives, we couldn't get to other stars, only the planets in a system, some of which have large colonies (Moon, Mars, one of the Jovian satellites,) others would be much smaller (say frontier mining colonies on Mercury.) Still lots of exploration, still the possibility of non-linear gameplaying.

 

[Skorpios]

Is it because D&D and the 'Tolkien archetype' have such a stranglehold on roleplaying that we have seen so few space-based RPGs?

Being set in a medieval time-frame has influenced so much in RPGs - the fact that there are very few forms of transport means you have to walk everywhere (and have lots of juicy 'wilderness' encounters along the way). Politics is basically frozen at the king/serf level and so forth.

Setting a game in the future adds so many new variables to play with, it is certainly exciting and challenging to designers and players.

Of course, you can just go the 'Star Wars' route and make your setting 'Swords and Sorcery + droids', but that is cheating. A truly galactic or at least spacefaring society has so much to offer in roleplaying opportunities. I'd love to see a team like Troika have a proper go at it.

 

[Jed]

It could be a Kim Stanley Robinson style solar system, one where nearly every piece of real-estate is colonized, including all moons, asteroids, and even comets. There could also be tons of space stations and capital ships; floating cities in gas giants. Derelict ships or space stations too, in place of ruins! A single very large solar system has tons and tons of possibilities.

 

[Deathy]

Simple. Base it in (or on) our solar system, and make space mean something. If there were no warp drives, we couldn't get to other stars, only the planets in a system, some of which have large colonies (Moon, Mars, one of the Jovian satellites,) others would be much smaller (say frontier mining colonies on Mercury.) Still lots of exploration, still the possibility of non-linear gameplaying.

An interesting part of this would be populate the system with space stations (ones that orbit the sun and not a planet) that can act as simple things such as refuelling bases, and up to things like casino's, or lawless trading towns, since it would be reasonable to assume that planets and moons would be controlled by various governments.

And, to top this all off, there shouldn't be any problems with cheesy aliens ruining my sci-fi experience.

EDIT: XJEDX said most of this already, so I'll have to expand upon it.

Imagine a solar system of the future. Space colonization is inevitable, if current progress continues and there's no trouble with say, the extinction of the human race due to war or plague.
Since faster than light travel is supposedly impossible, about as far as we can go is to the outer reaches of the solar system, And even further, if we aren't worried about *long* travel times.
So basically, you have a universe, say, roughly 1000 years in the future, with no cheesy space aliens, a universe which is still fairly rough around the edges, due to the length of time that travel takes, and the inability of the central governments (assuming things are still run by good old Earth) to control things well enough (hours of time delay for communications).
You'd have outlaw factions, nation states, alliances ever forming and changing, it'd be similar to Earth in its colonialist period, with events similar to USA declaring its independence happening on far off colonies. You'd also have pirates roaming space, and governments would be able to do little to combat such things.

That's my idealistic version of the Solar System space RPG setting, anyway

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Now I'd like to address something that I've been pondering for some time. The space RPG. I know I've been saying for a while I'd like to see Tim Cain try his hand at a nice space opera planet-hopping sci-fi game, but reading about KOTOR these past weeks has got me thinking. Is it really possible to make a game where you can go to any planet in a galaxy or universe and really make it non-linear? The developers couldn't possibly design a whole galaxy's worth of planets without going Daggerfall-style, but how can they plausibly force the player to go to a given set of pre-designed planets without sacrificing linearity? At worst, we get a very linear game like KOTOR or BG, at best, we get a contrived plot device like some kind of gigantic force field that blocks off all but six or so planets and limits the running around in space aspect of the game.

Anyone else have any ideas on the subject?

Absolute non-linearity probably is never possible without a real DM. Even in D&D games, you could teleport to the other side of the planet or plane shift to just about anywhere, but every minute detail of the Abyss, Mt. Celestia, and everywhere in between isn't implemented. You probably don't think a great deal about that, and if you do, you can at least see it wouldn't be feasible in a computer game.

In a space game, there might be physical restraints as were mentioned, like wormholes and no faster than light travel. Also, there might be restricted areas of space populated with members actively hostile to your species, where it's pretty much guaranteed you'll just be caught and executed if you go there. There just wouldn't be much for you to do there anyway, since if you landed anywhere people would recognize you no matter how you tried to disguise yourself, especially if they were more technologically advanced.

 

[Sharpice]

There is also the problem of freedom vs. story. While game balance can be done by setting encounter diffculty according to character strength, it's really hard to make a nonlinear epic story. Even the main quest of Moorrowind is very linear. And think about this if KotOR give you absolute freedom to travel, what will happen to the story? "The Hero wander through galaxy accidentally find a Sith and defeat him/her, then gameover." may well be the story you get.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

There is also the problem of freedom vs. story. While game balance can be done by setting encounter diffculty according to character strength, it's really hard to make a nonlinear epic story. Even the main quest of Moorrowind is very linear. And think about this if KotOR give you absolute freedom to travel, what will happen to the story? "The Hero wander through galaxy accidentally find a Sith and defeat him/her, then gameover." may well be the story you get.

Isn't the "travel" in KotOR more like changing chapters?

 

[EEVIAC]

And, to top this all off, there shouldn't be any problems with cheesy aliens ruining my sci-fi experience.

Surely a game dev has more immagination and creativity to make a space game that doesn't include alien artifacts. Alien artifacts in space games are outdated.

As soon as you mentioned colonialists I had visions of sailing around the galaxy, as explained here. Even better, one could go old school sci-fi and have a HG Wells type of sailing through the ether, broad-siding pirates shredding their space sails with grapeshot, with on deck ship battles using muskets. (I have fond memories of Space 1889.) Sleek and shiny ships are outdated.

There is also the problem of freedom vs. story. While game balance can be done by setting encounter diffculty according to character strength, it's really hard to make a nonlinear epic story.

I think the adjusting game difficulty is a cop out - the continuity in Freelancer suffered the same problem. Why not make an honour system. Each ship has an escape capsule, the escape casule can be destroyed but killing a person in cold blood would mean your name is dirt - even among thieves. As for the epic story, you're right, but I'd rather have an epic world where I can roam and adventure and explore.

Isn't the "travel" in KotOR more like changing chapters?

They were "levels" in R-Type, they were "levels" in Golden Axe, and they were still "levels" in V:TM and NWN. I'd rather be hoplessly lost in Avernum or Morrowind than being forced to complete eight quests before moving on to the next "area."

 

[Astromarine]

First: don't diss R-Type. R-Type 0wn0rz j00

As for the space-rpg, I'd like to see one on the Honor Harrington universe. Pirate-like battles with broadsides, etc. Discrete worlds with wormholes (kinda) Several factions with HUGE political infighting. Loads-o-weapons and ships. DAMN; it would be cool.

Actually, I'd love to see it even as a EVN mod. *hint hint*

 

[dipdipdip]

Isn't the "travel" in KotOR more like changing chapters?

Essentially. The first two areas you're brought to play out exactly like that -- you can't leave until you're told to do so.

Later on, you're allowed to travel to four planets in any particular order (non-linearity for the short-sighted). Things do change depending on the order you pick them in -- basically the time and place of the boss fights you encounter.

 

[Section8]

Sleek and shiny ships are outdated.

I agree entirely. Unless you need to re-enter an atmosphere somewhere, space ships don't need to be aerodynamic. I like the idea of ship design that is completely modular, where everything looks like a random assortment of space junk with big fuck off engines strapped on somewhere.

 

[Spazmo]

Well, that one-solar system with bajillions of ports things would work damned well. My doubts are quelled and my desire for a space RPG is rekindled. Yay!

 

[protobob]

Yeah sci-fi would be cool. That said, I want some atmosphere. Give me something with grit, ie. blade runner, alien, etc.

Also, I'd like to see a game where you can fly your ship through space, walk around inside of your ship, and even get out of your ship, float over to another ship (or other structure) and get inside it. That would be some slick shit. Think about the possibilities.

I've actually got a pretty good idea for a sci-fi rpg, too bad it will probably never get made. Sigh.

 

[Psilon]

EVA would be a nifty bullet point, but it'd be a pain in the ass to implement and control. Think about it; you're all alone, in a tiny spacesuit, subject to the whims of inertia and any object of micrometeoroid size or above. Basically, one hit will either kill you or fling you so far away you'll run out of oxygen well before you get back to a ship. See Escape Velocity Nova or Space Quest V for what I'm talking about, and those are with tiny shuttles! That leaves us with three options for assisted locomotion:

• Magnetic boots: Useless for going to another ship, but you can "highway surf" on your own cruiser. Might be somewhat useful if you use a tether or grappling hook to get over there in the first place.
• Tethers/tubes: Well, a tube isn't really EVA. As for a tether, that'd be pretty boring, though admittedly pretty.
• Jetpack: Impossible to steer, but definitely a "spacewalk experience." If you put an inertial damper on one (which not even Star Trek or Star Wars have done) then you've essentially got Descent or an Elder Scrolls levitation spell.

So why not just take a shuttle over? Sure, you're stuck with a cockpit, but it's not as subject to balancing/realism issues. Transporters are even easier, but then you miss out on the cool graphics. :D

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy says that if you hold a lungful of air you can survive in the total vacuum of space for about thirty seconds. However, it does go on to say that with space being the mind-boggling size it is the chances of getting picked up by another ship withing those thirty seconds are two to the power of two hundred and seventy-six thousand, seven hundred and nine to one against.

 

[Jed]

Later on, you're allowed to travel to four planets in any particular order (non-linearity for the short-sighted). Things do change depending on the order you pick them in -- basically the time and place of the boss fights you encounter.

Did you say four planets? You wouldn't happen to have to recover a lost or stolen artifact from each planet and return them to your Jedi master who for some reason can't be bothered to retrieve them him/herself now would you?

 

[Spazmo]

I think there's a more relevant Douglas Adams quote here.

"The trick to flying is to throw yourself at the ground and miss."