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[dipdipdip]

Later on, you're allowed to travel to four planets in any particular order (non-linearity for the short-sighted). Things do change depending on the order you pick them in -- basically the time and place of the boss fights you encounter.

Did you say four planets? You wouldn't happen to have to recover a lost or stolen artifact from each planet and return them to your Jedi master who for some reason can't be bothered to retrieve them him/herself now would you?

How right you are!

 

[Psilon]

Oh god. They did that plot device again? I never thought I'd pine for the "fetch 20000 gold" quest in BG2...

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Sleek and shiny ships are outdated.

I agree entirely. Unless you need to re-enter an atmosphere somewhere, space ships don't need to be aerodynamic. I like the idea of ship design that is completely modular, where everything looks like a random assortment of space junk with big fuck off engines strapped on somewhere.

This isn't true. There actually are particles and things in space, and the faster you go, the more flow of these things you'll end up with banging in to your hull. If you're talking about relativistic speeds, then you're going to need to be aerodynamic.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Reused; yes.
Bad;no.
It allows for some level of non-linearity in the middle of the game. I liked it, personally. Unlike NWN where it just felt like a plot device, I actually got a bit of a Star Wars feel because of the sheer abundance of exotic locales.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Saint are we talking 20 miles a second fast or 30 times the speed of light?

 

[Jed]

This isn't true. There actually are particles and things in space, and the faster you go, the more flow of these things you'll end up with banging in to your hull. If you're talking about relativistic speeds, then you're going to need to be aerodynamic.

But aside from a very tiny and widely dispersed percentage of space (such as a dense nebula), there is nothing for which these particles to flow through. Aerodynamics works in a dense gas (or a fluid), because the gas flows in predictable and consistent ways around the shape of such a designed object in motion--carrying debri around the object. In the vast majority of space, a smaller surface area might help decrease your chances of being hit, but the particle that hits will hit direct on for either a sleek or blocky ship. In space, especially the closer one gets to light speed, the more one needs to protect against micrometeors and the like, but this must be done with some sort of shielding, physical or force, not with the principles of aerodynamics, which are rendered moot in space.

 

[EEVIAC]

Why does it have be scientifically accurate? Surely a little artisitic license can be applied and chunky bolted-together-bits-of-crap with big strap-on-"fuck-off"-engines can exist. I like the idea of modular ship design, if only for the reason that it increases the amount of ship combinations in the game.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Concerning the Space RPG setting discussion, I'd like to see something that's akin to having space in a kind of frontier/pioneer setting. It could be similar to the days of the American frontier, during the time of the gold rushes, when people were going north into Alaska and west into San Francisco and Arizona in seek of gold and ruches. In the space version of this setting, Earth's Colonial government could very well be offering to sponsor trips for prospectors to these places in return for an oath of fealty and a 40% cut of all profits earned by the prospectors.

Mining conglomerates and megacorporations with their own financing would have their own resources and so forth, so they wouldn't have to pay the colonial government. Some backstory on how they signed an agreement with the Colonial government not to infringe on each others territories could create some very nice political intrigue.

Others who refused to pay the taxes could very well be independant prospectors and galactic rednecks. They, of course, would not have any protection from the Colonial government and would have to fend for themselves by forming militias and so forth, against pirates and marauders.

Another idea for a setting could be a 'post apocalyptic universe', set in the aftermath of the destruction of the great corporations and galactic governments. Figure that one out.

 

[dunduks]

I'd say it would be good to combine something like Tachyon/IWar2 - space sim engines to travel/fight/explore the space and when you land - switch to 3rd or 1st person engine to roam the planets. However this would not be possible without combining two different engines (too much work to do this). But I would be absolutely happy for such solution since I like RPG and space sims both.

 

[Jed]

Concerning the Space RPG setting discussion, I'd like to see something that's akin to having space in a kind of frontier/pioneer setting. It could be similar to the days of the American frontier, during the time of the gold rushes, when people were going north into Alaska and west into San Francisco and Arizona in seek of gold and ruches.

Ah... Firefly. How sweet it was while it lasted.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I think that walking onto the planets might require a bit more production time than is usually put into games that feature both "space/seafaring" and "3rd person adventure mode". Pirates of the Carribean is a particularly bad game because you spend most of your time being a landlubber instead of roaming the high seas in search of adventure.

If done right, it could be pretty good. Otherwise, I'd say to stick with one mode - either with the space mode alone or the adventure mode. Of course, if we go with the adventure mode alone this isn't to say that the game should be purely that - roaming in space could be pretty fun even if you can't become a trader or engage in space combat.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

On the ships, I agree an aerodynamic design wouldn't necessarily matter that much. You'd want protection from getting your hull punctured, but the effects as far as your speed wouldn't matter that much. Whatever power you have that let you build up the near infinite momentum required would make stray atoms inconsequential. You might even want to have some kind of electomagnetic net to capture them for fusion fuel for really long interstellar trips.

With modular ships, they'd be great for cash-strapped freighters, but poor for combat vessels, I think. If you want to strap on new engines, all someone has to do is hit the area where they're connected to fry some wires, knock off bolts, etc., then you're in trouble. Not to mention adding a bunch of after-market modifications would lead to your ship being a bit more temperamental, same as most things. Probably the high performance ships would still tend to look pretty nice, not some cobbled-together affair.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

But aside from a very tiny and widely dispersed percentage of space (such as a dense nebula), there is nothing for which these particles to flow through. Aerodynamics works in a dense gas (or a fluid), because the gas flows in predictable and consistent ways around the shape of such a designed object in motion--carrying debri around the object. In the vast majority of space, a smaller surface area might help decrease your chances of being hit, but the particle that hits will hit direct on for either a sleek or blocky ship. In space, especially the closer one gets to light speed, the more one needs to protect against micrometeors and the like, but this must be done with some sort of shielding, physical or force, not with the principles of aerodynamics, which are rendered moot in space.

There's a reason solar sails work, XJEDX. There are enough particles out there in space, being cast off of stars, for those particles to push a ship along. There's even enough to push a decently sized ship away from a star given the right sail size.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

There's a reason solar sails work, XJEDX. There are enough particles out there in space, being cast off of stars, for those particles to push a ship along. There's even enough to push a decently sized ship away from a star given the right sail size.

Solar sails have to be really big, though, and they're still not exactly speedy. I don't remember the figures, but I remember they've been ruled out for interstellar travel, partly because the light and particles from a star peter out fairly quickly. It would take so ridiculously long to get any kind of speed you'd be better off using a using your solar sail only while in the solar system and then switching to another form of propulsion. Your ship would be much smaller than its solar sail so it would be affected all the less by getting hit with stray particles. So the aerodyamics of your ship are going to have a very marginal effect. If you can manage to get a big ship to relativistic speeds for interstellar travel, it's probably not much of a concern.

 

[Jed]

Snails is pretty much on the money here. Any "serious" discusion about solar sails has to involve very large and very powerful lazers. Solar wind aside, one has to keep in mind that while light is both a particle and a wave, it is still energy, and not matter. A photon is not going to compromise your hull integrity--even at the highest speeds--because it is (for all intents and purposes) without mass.

You might even want to have some kind of electomagnetic net to capture them for fusion fuel for really long interstellar trips.

There are some interesting ideas I've read about a hydrogen ramjet. But it suffers from serious praticality problems, such as because of the rarity of hydrogen atoms in open space, one has to pretty much attain near-light speeds before enough hydrogen can be collected to act as fuel. That's one hell of a slingshot!

 

[Sharpice]

Well, what iam gonig to say is probably a little bit off topic. If there is a space exploration RPG, inspired by Star Trek: Voyager. Where you play the role of a captain commanding a starship, and your mission is to get your ship to a faraway planet. The obatacle on the way will be your main quests in the game, and things like wheather or not to respound to a distress call, and things like that are the side qusts. This will be a game even more linear than KotOR. You probably don't even get to plot the course of your ship, but it surely feels better than collecting artifacts. The Problem of KotOR probably is not in the freedom thing, but the outdated plot hook.

 

[Psilon]

Please don't say "inspired by Star Trek: Voyager." There are innumerable better sci-fi franchises with similar premises. Anyway, linearity isn't necessarily a Bad Thing. It's just that most linear games aren't very good. I don't think anyone here would want a highly nonlinear version of, say, Serious Sam.

 

[Voss]

The important thing, more than linearity or not, is to give the player a reason to care about the main quest/story. And not insert 500 kittens to be rescued along the way.
If its an intriguing plot, with reasons to go along with it, the urge to go sit in the wilderness and wait for whatever random crap to happen will go away.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Solar sails have to be really big, though, and they're still not exactly speedy. I don't remember the figures, but I remember they've been ruled out for interstellar travel, partly because the light and particles from a star peter out fairly quickly. It would take so ridiculously long to get any kind of speed you'd be better off using a using your solar sail only while in the solar system and then switching to another form of propulsion. Your ship would be much smaller than its solar sail so it would be affected all the less by getting hit with stray particles. So the aerodyamics of your ship are going to have a very marginal effect. If you can manage to get a big ship to relativistic speeds for interstellar travel, it's probably not much of a concern.

This is why I said that they're emitted from stars, you're more likely to find solar winds in a solar system than outside of one. It's still possible, but the farther and farther away from a star, the more likely they are to be dispersed due to distance. However, if you're travelling at very, very high speeds, the mass flow over your ship will increase, because these things do exist and have been cast off of stars for billions of years now.

Of course, the frequency of this mass distribution will also increase the closer you are to the center of a galaxy than at the edges.

Snails is pretty much on the money here. Any "serious" discusion about solar sails has to involve very large and very powerful lazers. Solar wind aside, one has to keep in mind that while light is both a particle and a wave, it is still energy, and not matter. A photon is not going to compromise your hull integrity--even at the highest speeds--because it is (for all intents and purposes) without mass.

Actually, light has no rest mass, it does have mass. Rest mass means that if you're moving the same speed and direction of the photon in question, it would appear to be massless. It's defined by a wave packet, which can be modelled as either a particle in certain situations or as a wave, depending on what you're working with.

Light isn't the only thing a star throws off, either. It tosses off helium and hydrogen, heavier elements, and other particles. All matter that's not in a star came from stars, after all.

There are some interesting ideas I've read about a hydrogen ramjet. But it suffers from serious praticality problems, such as because of the rarity of hydrogen atoms in open space, one has to pretty much attain near-light speeds before enough hydrogen can be collected to act as fuel. That's one hell of a slingshot!

That's not true, either. Most hydrogen in space is in the form of protons bouncing around though. Add an electron, and then some oxygen, and burn it.

In a solar system, planets are constantly being nailed by hydrogen ions.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

This is why I said that they're emitted from stars, you're more likely to find solar winds in a solar system than outside of one. It's still possible, but the farther and farther away from a star, the more likely they are to be dispersed due to distance. However, if you're travelling at very, very high speeds, the mass flow over your ship will increase, because these things do exist and have been cast off of stars for billions of years now.

Of course, the frequency of this mass distribution will also increase the closer you are to the center of a galaxy than at the edges.

Like I was saying, there's a matter of scale involved. The standard density of air here on terra firma is 1.225 kg/m^3. That means your 2 m x 2 m car is going to displace about 5 kg of air per meter travelled. That's quite a big deal, and still aerodynamics is hardly the only factor in a car's fuel efficiency. You could drive a brick if you really wanted to and still get non-atrocious mileage as long as other things like weight and the efficiency of the engine were not too obnoxious.

By contrast a solar wind is measured from Earth's orbit as being about 6 particles per cubic centimeter. For that, we're talking on the order of 10^-19 kg/m^3

Okay, but your spaceship is travelling much faster. Let's say the speed of light, nearly 3 x 10^9 m/s. By contrast a vehicle going at 100 km/h (60 mph) would be about 28 m/s. We'll say 30 to make the math easy. So your spaceship is travelling 10^8 faster, but the density of what it's travelling through is 10^19 less. Because of the low density, there aren't things like turbulence either, but we'll ignore that for simplicity. So you're hitting 10^11 less particles for every second you zip through space compared to a car, even going the speed of light, and that's in a solar wind. I'd say that's pretty much the definition of marginal, wouldn't you? If your ship can scramble its fighter wing to go to battle 5 seconds earlier by putting a big unwieldy-looking hangar bay in the front or the side, wrecking aerodyamics, go for it. If putting a big square water tank at the front shields the passengers from radiation, go for it. Aerodyamics is such a small concern it's basically not going to enter into the design process.

 

[Jed]

Actually, light has no rest mass, it does have mass. Rest mass means that if you're moving the same speed and direction of the photon in question, it would appear to be massless. It's defined by a wave packet, which can be modelled as either a particle in certain situations or as a wave, depending on what you're working with.

Yes light has relativistic mass (E=mc2). However, aerodynamics is governed by Newtonian physics, so for the purposes of spaceship design, light has no mass.

Light isn't the only thing a star throws off, either. It tosses off helium and hydrogen, heavier elements, and other particles. All matter that's not in a star came from stars, after all.

Comes from supernovae, actually. But you're right about stars throwing off gases, but again, it's a matter of quantity. If the reality were the picture you are painting and the solar system was filled with gases significant enough to necessitate "aerodynamic" spaceships, then there would also be friction. Friction would prevent a solar sail from working at all, even just in theory--not even to mention all the serious problems in heat shielding for conventional ships...

By the way, anyone here play Freespace 2? I'm a newb to spacey games (only played Freelancer)--is this one worth playing?

 

[Astromarine]

Freespace 2 is the best space shooter you will ever find. Its large scale battles STILL hold up today as great examples of cinematic missions, the ship handles beautifully, the weapons and loadouts all make sense, the storyline is around the best in the genre. People still play it multiplayer to this day. It has a crapload of mods, including a Babylon 5 total conversion.

You cannot go wrong. Get it RIGHT THE FUCK NOW if you're at all interested in the genre. It's as definitive in its genre as Medieval is for large-scale tactical warfare, or JA2 for squad-based tactics.

 

[Psilon]

Seconded. It's a truly great game. The only space shooter that comes close for its time is the original TIE Fighter. Tachyon's enjoyable, but FreeSpace 2 is far better.

 

[Astromarine]

Yep. Tie was great, but hard to play in Windows.

Let me put FS2 this way: I bought a 70 dollar flight stick *specifically* to play this $10 game.

 

[Spazmo]

I really loved FS2, but I'm angry at Interplay for first off forcing Volition to not finish the story in the game (I like to blame Interplay for that as I don't see how any self-respecting author could allow his game to come to such an unsatisfying ending) and second not letting Volition make the ostensibly story-arc finishing expansion/sequel that would have properly ended the FS saga.