Review GameBanshee twaps ToEE

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Temple of Elemental Evil

<A href="http://www.gamebanshee.com/">GameBanshee</a> popped up with <A href="http://www.gamebanshee.com/reviews/software/templeofelementalevil1.php">a review</A> of <A href="http://www.greyhawkgame.com">Temple of Elemental Evil</a>. They didn't like it much. In fact, they gave it a ripe <b>6.0/10</b>. OUCH!
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Here's a clip:
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<blockquote>Alignment is also important during TOEE?s character creation. It limits the selection of characters you can have in your party; so that a Neutral Good group can only contain that alignment and adjacent ones: Lawful and Chaotic Good, and True Neutral. This determines where your party starts up and the selection of quests you receive. In all honesty, though, some of the changes were merely cosmetic, a matter of being sent to the same area and fighting the same monsters for different reasons. Some quests are only available to some alignments, however, and the game length could vary widely, as a result. Once in the TOEE module, alignment has no effect, at all. You aren?t faced with moral dilemmas and dialog/action choices whose outcomes can shift this factor. </blockquote>
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That's not entirely true. Play it more than once, and you'll see that your choice of party alignment, as well as the openning quest you get, actually does have an effect on dialogues. Of course, there's really not much evil to do in Hommlet. *sigh*
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Spotted this on <A href="http://www.sorcerers.net/">Sorcerer's Place</a>(And I spelled it right this time, <b>Urban</b>!)

 

[Sol Invictus]

6.0? Crap!

Here's a dialogue that proves that certain dialogues are only available to certain alignments and are quite unavailable to others:

Your first chat with Mona in Nulb.

{1}{[An older woman in a torn and dirty dress shakes her fist at you.] I have nothing left! Nothing remains for you thieves to loot! Now leave me be!}{[An older woman in a torn and dirty dress shakes her fist at you.] I have nothing left! Nothing remains for you thieves to loot! Now leave me be!}{}{}{}{game.global_flags[321] = 1}

{2}{I am not here to loot. What happened here?}{}{8}{(game.party_alignment == LAWFUL_GOOD) or (game.party_alignment == NEUTRAL_GOOD) or (game.party_alignment == LAWFUL_NEUTRAL) or (game.party_alignment == TRUE_NEUTRAL) or (game.party_alignment == LAWFUL_EVIL)}{20}{}

{3}{You mean there is nothing left at all?}{}{8}{(game.party_alignment == CHAOTIC_GOOD) or (game.party_alignment == CHAOTIC_NEUTRAL) or (game.party_alignment == TRUE_NEUTRAL) or (game.party_alignment == CHAOTIC_EVIL) or (game.party_alignment == NEUTRAL_EVIL)}{30}{}

{4}{Who are you?}{}{8}{}{20}{}

{5}{Serena said I should come talk to you.}{}{8}{game.quests[59].state == qs_accepted}{50}{}

{6}{Me not here to take stuff. What happen?}{}{-7}{(game.party_alignment == LAWFUL_GOOD) or (game.party_alignment == NEUTRAL_GOOD) or (game.party_alignment == LAWFUL_NEUTRAL) or (game.party_alignment == TRUE_NEUTRAL) or (game.party_alignment == LAWFUL_EVIL)}{20}{}

{7}{Nothing?}{}{-7}{(game.party_alignment == CHAOTIC_GOOD) or (game.party_alignment == CHAOTIC_NEUTRAL) or (game.party_alignment == TRUE_NEUTRAL) or (game.party_alignment == CHAOTIC_EVIL) or (game.party_alignment == NEUTRAL_EVIL)]/b]}{30}{}

It should be noted that the (8) flag is for if you have 8 intelligence and above. The (-7) flag only applies if you have less than 7 intelligence. You will get one of the dialogues depending on your statistics.

This is only a small example of what the engine is capable of. There are dialogues which are very well only activateable if you are of a certain class, race, or possess a certain skill (e.g. bluff, appraise, diplomacy, intimidate)

That's a poorly researched paragraph, I must say. While I agree with a lot of the review, especially the part about the quests being rather bland, without proper characterizations and so forth, I think it's pretty harsh to give the game a 60%. The combat alone merits a 70% - best damn combat I've seen in an RPG, EVER. The quests could definitely need sprucing up, though.

 

[Volourn]

60%? And, I thought I was being harsh...

 

[Sol Invictus]

Yeah dude, you'd probably give it a 75% or so, which you did, and I think that's pretty decent especially with the bug problems and the freakin slowdowns I get sometimes (solvable by exiting the game and re-starting. Must be a cache problem with the game.)

The quests suck, but 60%? Jeez, that's fucking harsh. I'd give that to the expansion of IWD (with the exception of Trials of the Luremaster), which rather sucked. Jeez.. 60%

 

[JanC]

From what I've heard there are so many bugs that you have to be pretty dedicated to enjoy it. 60% sounds fair for that. No matter how good the game design, if the game is not truly finished, it is not truly worth our money.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I agree with Exitium, combat alone is worth 70%, the graphics and animations are superb and represent another 10%, so there you go, it's a solid 80% minimum.

As for the bugs, JanC, the only person that I know of who has gamestopping, computer-blowing, life-threating bugs is Volourn. The rest of the folks are enjoying the game despite occasional issues, so don't listen to rumors and "true stories". Wait for the game and see for yourself. 50% of bugs are due to users' stupidity. A friend of mine was bitching about maximize feat, till I actually showed the fool that you have to assign these feats to spells, which bumps spell levels and place them in a higher spell selections. Doh!

 

[chrisbeddoes]

Giving this game a 60 % is hard.

The funny thing is that if this game had NO stupid complicated quest a must do b but not before c does d (it could have fed ex quests) no stubid npc to follow and no item creation but had a lot more cewl loot everybody would hail it as the next Diablo and give it a 95 %.

It seems that all the bugs are due to crafting followers and quests .

The other bugs is monsters in walls solved by hitting c and starting combat

and the dwarves silver full plate that causes crashes in area transitions.

 

[Volourn]

There's lots of kewl let in this game. I seriously doubt that's the problem.

Please, VD, you just have to read the Atari baords to see I wasn't the only one who was having constant crashing. In fact, from an unscientific poll; another 15% or so of players were almongst these "isolated" cases.

Please, many of the bugs are not because people are stupid. It's not stupidity that makes multi class clerics spotaneously cast cause wound spells is it? I think not. So many more fine examples of bugs that are only seen by "stupid" people.

Stop being such a fanboy.

I agree 60% is to low from my perspective; but just because a reviewer doesn't kiss up to your god doens't mean he's stupid. Quite frankly, this review was one of the better reviews for the game content wise - mainly, just the score I have a major problem with.

 

[HanoverF]

He complains about having to read the radial menu, he complains about spells using component cost coming from group funds (which can be found in even a cursory glance over the manual), he complains ToEE is the buggiest rpg evah, after saying he played Darklands, I Loved Darklands, but that thing was downright infested with bugs compared to ToEE.

 

[Sol Invictus]

From what I've heard there are so many bugs that you have to be pretty dedicated to enjoy it. 60% sounds fair for that. No matter how good the game design, if the game is not truly finished, it is not truly worth our money.

Do not judge it if you have not played it. The bugs issue is blown out of proportion. The only time I've ever had crashes was when I was testing out my modifications. The game is hardly 'unplayable'. Until you've played the game, you'd best prevent yourself from being so judgmental over it.


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As for the review and other issues...

Fucking hell, most of the 'bugs' people report aren't even bugs - they're mostly just misconceptions of the 3.5 rules or some issue with a difficulty understanding the game's interface (which could be improved). Someone reported a bug saying that Burning Hands was listed as an Alternation (or is that Conjuration?) spell rather than an evocation. THat's not a bug. Burning Hands isn't a freaking evocation spell.

That's just an example.

As for the radial menu issue - what the fuck? The radial menu in ToEE is by far the most intuitive I've ever used. Words are a lot easier to read and decipher than draconian symbols you wouldn't know did what. I think that I'd have a pretty fucking hard time telling the difference between the symbol for Divine Favor and Order's Wrath. How the hell would you symbolize them anyway?

Fucking whiners should all be shot.

 

[Volourn]

Intuitive? HAHA! is that why I'm either forced to scroll the screen to read it; or manually move it? That's not really intuitive. Even now when I'm 100% used to it; it's still not as good as others. Arcanum, NWN, the IE, the Fos, and many others are much more intuitive than it. Not completely horrible; but definitly not the best.

The bug issue is not being blown out of proportion. Just lookat the Atari boards. I guess all the reviewers are also out to get TOO? Do they have a vendatte? Weird...

Seriously, it's a conspiracy.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Intuitive? HAHA! is that why I'm either forced to scroll the screen to read it; or manually move it? That's not really intuitive. Even now when I'm 100% used to it; it's still not as good as others. Arcanum, NWN, the IE, the Fos, and many others are much more intuitive than it. Not completely horrible; but definitly not the best.

The bug issue is not being blown out of proportion. Just lookat the Atari boards. I guess all the reviewers are also out to get TOO? Do they have a vendatte? Weird...

Seriously, it's a conspiracy.

Arcanum? Arcanum?! Arcanum's interface was an apathetic goat getting royally fucked in the arse by a senile old man with a case of sexual anxiety.

In NWN, you had to CLICK to open up the mini-menus.

As for IE, the BG/IWD series of games were rather simple, hence the simplistic (you would say intuitive) menus. There was simply no need for anything more complex than what they offered because features such as "ready vs.", "fight defensively" and "power attack" weren't features in those games.

Planescape Torment was decent, but i didnt know what the hell the icons represented and the positioning was rather shoddy (all the choices were in tabs on the dial, rather than using all 360 degrees of the circle)

As for the Atari boards - freaking install the no-CD. It fixes almsot all of all the CTD bugs.

If anyone says "oh, but I am legit, I will never download a crack even though I bought the game with my own money!" They can fuck off and stop whining.

"Oh no, my tires are punctured, good thing I have them insured. But wait, my insurance company refuses to pay for them - I WILL NEVER DRIVE AGAIN. FUCK YOU!"

Fix the problem yourselves, assheads.

 

[Volourn]

LOL LOL LOL

 

[Sol Invictus]

I picked this up from Vehementi.

Another thing about that review:

And speaking of characters and story, TOEE is very ordinary. There are no distinctive personal touches that remain in the mind afterwards, like passion-dead Irenicus (from BG2) trying to recall the emotion with which he loved his long-dead wife, through keeping her old bedroom exactly as it was when she last used it

The hell? Irenicus' wife wasn't dead. She was the Queen. He was the Exile. Did the reviewer even play BG2 to the end?!

 

[Sol Invictus]

Oh, sure, I suppose the game is 'unplayable' if you're a stubborn ass who refuses to download the no-cd crack for some ridiculous reason or another (Ohhhhhh it might have a virus!). Sure.

Look, the problem's pretty easy to solve. If you know how to solve it and refuse to because you're too lazy or something to do it, you don't have a right to bitch about not being able to play the game, or making false statements about the game being 'buggier than hell cause I can't start it!'

Please. They aren't connected.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Arcanum? Arcanum?! Arcanum's interface was an apathetic goat getting royally fucked in the arse by a senile old man with a case of sexual anxiety.

Your descriptions are so vivid i can't stop imagining that image. I will have nightmares today, worse than those involving my first viewing of goatse.

The hell? Irenicus' wife wasn't dead. She was the Queen. He was the Exile. Did the reviewer even play BG2 to the end?!

Yeah i was a bit :shock: as well when i read that.

 

[Sol Invictus]

LOL LOL LOL

That sums up what most of us think of you.

 

[Volourn]

Do you really think I care what an over emotional internet person like you thinks of me?

Don't you think you are hyperventilating just a tad?

Seriously, do you think there's some big conspiracy against TOEE espicially when it comes to the bugs? All reviewers, even ones who actually like dthis game, amde it quite clear, that this game is buggier than most? OMG The anti TOEEs are here. Geez.. It seesm to me, the only ones who think the game isn't buggy are the Tim Cain/Troika fanboys. Surprising, I think not.

Like I said above, for me persoanlly, the rating he gave is to low; but it's understandable that it was given.

The bottom line is if BIO had included such great designs as not being able to escape combat, and the identify spell that doesn't really identify, or the required spell known as SPELL_NONE needed to make items, and the list can go on if you wish, BIO would have been crucified more than they already were.

That's ok. Continue to defend Troika, and all their mistakes. It's amusing.

I'll go back to playing Aracnum that actually has role-playing that matters in the grand scheme.

 

[Sol Invictus]

All Bioware did was make it possible for you to run away from combat with the use of a quick button (Stone of Recall), heal up for as long as you like, and go back into the fray. If that's fun for you, well, you'd just have to be an idiot.

 

[Volourn]

You must be really an idiot as I criticized BIO big time for that. Perhaps, you should actually read what people post. I hated stone of recall, and made it very clear to BIO on the baords what I thought of it. Then again, you are too stupid to know that since you make things up, and lie about what I like or dislike in games.

Enjoy your delusion of the perfect game known as TOEE.

Have fun. :D

 

[Sol Invictus]

Who's lying now? Not once have I ever stated that ToEE is the perfect game. Shit, dude - FAR FROM IT. There's reasons why I started the Mod site - one of them is mainly because I see the game for its potential and a lot of it would go wasted if someone didn't do something about it. The quests, in particular, stink. The NPCs are uninteresting, save Z-Axis.

The bugs? Minor, but annoying. The spell creation feats? Awfully unfinished.

See what I'm getting at here?

Obviously not, because I've been saying it over and over and it still can't get into your thick skull.

 

[Volourn]

*notices how you ignore the fact that I didn't like the recall stone* Not surprising.

You may not think TOEE is perfect; but you sure act like it with your attitude to anyone who makes any criticism of it, or saying the bugs are imagination or a conspiracy.

Then again, people think I feel NWN is pefect and I rate the game a 7.5, and I have highly criticized aspects of the game yet am still cosnidered a fanboy. LOL Go figure.

It's ahrd to get what you are sayong when you make up stories about me liking the stone of recall when I didn't, your name calling (which I returned as a personal favour), and your over zealous ranting in defense of a game that is FAR from perfect.

 

[Linedog]

There's reasons why I started the Mod site - one of them is mainly because I see the game for its potential and a lot of it would go wasted if someone didn't do something about it.

You are right. The game does have massive potential. Hope you modders stick with it. It would be great to see new quests and areas etc.. Is there any effort being made by your group towards working on a comprehensive modding toolset?

 

[Seven]

*notices how you ignore the fact that I didn't like the recall stone* Not surprising.

You may not think TOEE is perfect; but you sure act like it with your attitude to anyone who makes any criticism of it, or saying the bugs are imagination or a conspiracy.

Then again, people think I feel NWN is pefect and I rate the game a 7.5, and I have highly criticized aspects of the game yet am still cosnidered a fanboy. LOL Go figure.

It's ahrd to get what you are sayong when you make up stories about me liking the stone of recall when I didn't, your name calling (which I returned as a personal favour), and your over zealous ranting in defense of a game that is FAR from perfect.

Prick. :D

Bystander: "Yup, that about sums it up."
Gathering Crowd: "We also concur with 79"

 

[Fable]

Not to stand on ceremony, hi.

I didn't sign up here to congratulate or contest any of the opinions offered, above. But I do want to clear a few points up.

First, the paragraph the Codex quotes could have been more clearly stated, but it remains true:"Once in the TOEE module, alignment has no effect." All the moral niceties are gotten out of the way during character creation. Within the module, your party doesn't exist in a morally dynamic universe where alignment can shift, nor are you offered moral choices permitting a range of decisions that have major affects on the universe.

I hope that was a bit clearer, at least.

Second, the score. Buck determines the game score from an average of 5 categories. These are not weighted. Consequently, bugs really pulled things down. They are a huge drag on this game, far more than any other reputable product I've played. (And yes, that includes Darklands. I was discussing the sheer number of bugs that affected how the game plays, not the number of patches required to fix 'em. Microprose was overzealous in rushing patches, just as it was in rushing games out the door. Atari/Troika can't be accused of that--for better, and for worse.) In any case, if the bugs weren't so mindnumbingly prevalent, I would have given TOEE a significantly higher rating--probably 7.0 to 7.5, somewhere in that range. It simply does not for me put the roleplaying in RPG, but it's a decent hack-n-slasher.

Third, I mention Irenicus "long dead wife," raising the ire of one of your regulars, who remarks,

The hell? Irenicus' wife wasn't dead. She was the Queen. He was the Exile. Did the reviewer even play BG2 to the end?!

Of course, and I've played through BG2 five times. But I didn't want to give away spoilers to people who read GameBanshee. We constantly have an influx of new BG2 players, as I can attest, being the mod for that forum. :D So I went with as honest a statement as could be made about the situation from the POV of a player who hasn't reached beyond, say, chapter 5 or so. And it remains a valid point, because in the opening dungeon, you are led to believe that matters are just the way I've stated. It is a haunting image that remained with me long after I knew the truth, and played the game several more times. I could have settled for mentioning all the great interparty dialog, but it has to be read in context to make its point; and visuals are more effective in this case than words.

Thank you for your patience. I now return you courteously to your regularly scheduled brickbats.