Review Netjak berates ToEE

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Temple of Elemental Evil

<a href="http://www.netjak.com/review.php/434">Netjak</a> has coughed up <A href="http://www.netjak.com/review.php/434">their review</a>, apparently written by a <i>moron</i>, of <a href="http://www.greyhawkgame.com">Temple of Elemental Evil</a>. I think this speaks for itself:
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<blockquote>The game balance also leaves much to be desired. In my first game, for example, I needed to rest for seven days to heal up. <u>Trying to rest, I was constantly being attacked, with each battle gaining experience points, and by the time I finally healed, my characters were three levels stronger than what the designers intended for me to be this early in the game. It turned out that I was resting on a monster spawning point, a feature that is not only neglected by the documentation, but which also doesn?t check whether the player is present.</u> The end result of all this was that I was able to go through the rest of the game with relative ease. I am aware that non-linear games like this one will offer opportunities to gain cheap experience points, but being limited to only ten levels, the player?s characters should be kept under tighter control by the developers. </blockquote>
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Did we miss the fact the little tent icon was yellow? I see we also failed to read <i>PAGE 16</i>, where it carefully explains the resting function and what that little yellow tent means. So, yes, bumblewit, it is in the manual!
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Spotted this on <a href="http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=286">the official ToEE forum</a>.
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[Sol Invictus]

Here are the comments, which I wrote at their website, which I do not care to link right now, or ever.

"Other characters, which you meet and are supposed to kill, will either disappear or do something really stupid when you let them live, which breaks the main quest."

What the heck? It's impossible to 'break' the main quest, genius. It's because the game doesn't rely on any such 'main quest' to guide the player along like some carrot on a string. It's the player's choice to pursue his journey to the Temple and do what he likes within it. Such is the nature of an open, non-linear role playing game. If you've ever played anything besides console RPGs and Neverwinter Nights, you'd probably have known that by now.

Just the same, there's no 'removed content' which breaks the main quest anywhere. The removed content (children and whores) were really not that important to the 'main quest' as you call it, as the children only provided a more realistic environment while the Brothel offered you an additional NPC (Riana) to join your party.

It seems to me that you hardly scratched the surface with this game - probably stopped at the Moathouse when you discovered the 'spawn point' for resting or whatever it is you referred to it as. Thanks chum, but the dice have rolled snake eyes for you under the cup.

In the future, could you guys get a guy with a little more gaming experience than Final Fantasy 7 to review RPGs?

Additionally, I'd like to say something referring to the whole 'spawning ground' nonsense you decided to write in your review:

You probably reloaded the game each time to make sure his party wouldn't die from a wounded state while fighting at the 'spawning ground', too, hence the 'imbalance'.

In my experience with playing the Iron Man mode (how it is meant to be played), trying to gain experience and earn levels by sleeping in dangerous areas can more or less get your party killed in less than no time. If it isn't the weakened state, it's the diseases you'll get which will turn your characters into mush.

In other words, try playing a game which you have to review without resorting to cheating or exploiting the in-game save system.

Tell me, are we going to complain about the Save and Load system? Because they make the game (and every other game) really very easy.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Saint_Proverbius: In my reference to the manual, I complained that the notion of a spawning point was not mentioned there. I expect random encounters in yellow resting area, but not three to four in a single 8-hour period. Within a week, my party members were Level 3, without progressing in the story at all.

I don't complain that I gained the levels so fast; at Lvl 3 going through the moathouse was a piece of cake. However, if the developers wanted the game to be more balanced, they should've included some kind of mechanism that prevents people from gaining cheap experience too fast. For example, they could've limited random encounters to one within a 24-hours period while resting, or giving much more experience for quests and less experience for killing enemies.

There is no 'spawning point'.

If you've played the D&D PNP game, which I doubt, you'd know that each time you rest in an unsafe area, you have to roll to see if you get interrupted by an encounter, as well as a roll against sickness or disease.

If you fail this roll, you are interrupted.

Now, the issue is this - how exactly did you manage to sleep in a dungeon for experience for as long as you did? In my experience, the combat is difficult, especially if you are in a weakened, and unrested state, unable to heal and such.

The only way you can achieve gaining 3 levels just by waiting for random encounters alone was if you used the save and reload mechanism each time your characters died or were the victims of sort of fate which you did not prefer for them. In other words, you cheated.

You cheated and you gained levels because you did. It's as simple as that. The game mechanics pertaining to resting is fine. It's how you abused the mechanics of loading and saving which caused these resting mechanics to break and henceforth imbalance the game. It's nobody's fault except your own that you don't know how to play a game.

Don't fault the company which made this game for your own lack of self-restraint.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

what resolution do you guys run the game at?

 

[chrisbeddoes]

That guy is a noob.
End of story.
Real reviewers play that game.
They do not review a game by reading other ppl posts in a message board.

 

[Volourn]

I agree that this review was very poor compared to most others including the other very harsh review which while had some bad points was much better.

Still, I have to say, both Exitium and SP need to relax. It's like a pack of wild dogs. Entertaining; though.

 

[chrisbeddoes]

I agree that this review was very poor compared to most others including the other very harsh review which while had some bad points was much better.

Still, I have to say, both Exitium and SP need to relax. It's like a pack of wild dogs. Entertaining; though.

Yea and i know the perfect way for them to relax.

They could ban you. :wink:

 

[Volourn]

They might not need to.

 

[chrisbeddoes]

They might not need to.

Because you do not care right ?

 

[Shevek]

Come on, guys, lets not get all personal.

Back on topic:
*Edit*
Woops, nevermind. I just found the review (followed the wrong link).
*Edit Edit*
I have to agree with Chris. The review really does seem like little more than a rehash of information (and misinformation) that could be gleaned by perusing the ToEE messageboards. Some things just seem odd to me even in this light, however. The reviewer's confusion over resting rules seem particularly strange as anyone with experience with numerous CRPGs (even Bio ones) should not be so taken aback at having a chance of your resting being interupted while in a dungeon. Niether do I grasp his deeming of these encounters as cheap experience points or how he equates such encounters with strictly non-linear titles when they are part of numerous linear ones. I really think that the guy is not even that familiar with CRPGs in general and maybe shouldnt be taking upon himself to write a review for one.

 

[chrisbeddoes]

Well it is not really that Volourn is a master Troll no it is not just that .
It is for me anyway that my favorite developers had a commercial failure and now i do not think that they will be able to make thir games their way .

So Volourn comes here with an attitude i told you so Troika are not gods they are as faulty as Bioware well that may be true Volurn .

But stop throwing salt in the Troika fandoys wound on purpose or you WILL be banned.

Your attitude is like i was going to a message boards were americans had flamed me because i was against their war and started post like ....

Where are the wmd ? Where are the wmb ?
No wmd you are Suckers !!!!!!
Whay I should do that ?
Everybody knows the truth.
Why should i throw oil into the fire ?




So stop mocking us because even though what you are saying may be the truth you are becoming irritating continously on purpose and that is what matters.

It does not matter that you may be telling the truth or that you may be sincere.

Stop annoying us .

It does not matter that you say the truth.It does matter that you are real annoying on purpose.It does matter that you spoil our fun .


The regulars are coming here to have fun.

We have fun by bashing the hype of some annoying publishers that over hype their trashy games.

You come here and point the real flaws of ToEE .

Well ok let me say that for you ToEE is flawed.

You win.

Now get the f*** out of our forums.

My 2 eurocents .

Chris.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Hey Chris, I thought you were australian? I didn't know they had euros there. Anywho, this guys that wrote the review is s schmuk and should not be taken seriously. WTF was he thinking anyway? Hell, even peops who are inexperienced with DnD games that I know know that if you rest in dungeon, you'll get messed up.

 

[chrisbeddoes]

Hey Chris, I thought you were australian? I didn't know they had euros there. Anywho, this guys that wrote the review is s schmuk and should not be taken seriously. WTF was he thinking anyway? Hell, even peops who are inexperienced with DnD games that I know know that if you rest in dungeon, you'll get messed up.

I am Greek .
That guy did not do his job.
He did not play the game to review instead he reviewd by reading forum comments.

Journalist must be impartial .
That means that if you can you MUST expience the truth first hand not second hand.

It is like reading the comments of Baath party members saying that Sadam was great instead of actually living under Sadam .

You have a copy of the game ?

Review the copy NOT the forums.


Or at least be truthful and state very clearly that your review was based on forum posts not on you playing the game.

Hey Chris, I thought you were australian?

If I was australian I would make much less spellaz and graamarz errorz dude.

 

[Shevek]

Chris:

Aww, come on Chris. I can understand your frustration with Volourn but lets try not to let this thread go astray. I really agree with Deathy that we have to try to leave this sort of thing out and try to concentrate on pertinant issues to bring more well thought out posts around here. So long asVolourn is not actively instigating negative discussion in a thread, perhaps we should not attempt to paint him in a corner so he has no option but to do so.

Since I already beat ToEE, I actually picked up the c64 version of Bard's Tale just so I can form a more informed opinion of Brian Fargo's new BT game. I think we should all try to follow similar pursuits. I mean, pick up a game, play it and then come here and try to stick to brass tacks (kinda like a book club ).

Also, you are right about that comment of bad journalism. Both this article and the Gamebanshee one smelled of it. While I believe GB review was biased, this review is even worse because, as you said, it really seems this guy just didnt play the game and formed his review by taking bits and pieces from the forums. I really hate bad journalism since I see freedom of speech as something of a priveledge. It is not something everyone has and we had (and continue to) fight for it. To see a publication use that priviledge so badly bothers me as they are abusing it and unfairly influencing the purchasing choices of many potential gamers. Such actions could have repercussions as to the kinds of games I will be able to play in the future and that doesnt make me particularly happy. They have the right to say what they wish, of course; I just have to the right to think they are morons.

 

[Rayt]

Snipped rant

While you have a point about Volourn's perseverence, I find it a bit hypocritical to find it perfectly acceptable to continuesly (to the point of getting lame) bash Bioware and Black Isle and their games (wheter that's justified or not) but when someone does the same with TOEE it's a trollish atitude, petty and being a dick. And RPGCodex is a site and forum where all kinds of crpg's are being discussed and where all points of views are accepted. It's not a haven for Troika fanboys. Well, that's what I think, anyway.

That said, I'm buying TOEE tomorrow. Yay!

Oh and it makes you wonder on what qualifications people get hired to write game reviews. This one is has set yet another low.

 

[Visceris]

RayT, it is a good buy overall. Just download the Co8 patch, its a good one, and enjoy.

 

[Volourn]

Hmmm... I must reiterate, despite the fact I dislike certain aspects of TOEE; I do inf act like the game. I don't bash Troika for fun espicially consideirng I like Arcanum which is one my fvaorites - even better than the NWN OC, IWD series, and as much as PST.

I think when peole actually read my full unsolicited review of TOEE they will see tha.. hopefully.

Like I said already, this particular review of TOEE isn't that good.

P.S. Chirs, I love the poem.

 

[chrisbeddoes]

It's not a haven for Troika fanboys

It is a haven for hard core turn based thinking adults that love rpg with deep fun quests and non linearity.

 

[Chadeo]

It is in fact possible (though really very dull) to level up in one area by resting over and over.

You only have a chance to get interrupted during the eight hour rest, thus if you are lucky and make it through eight hours with no interruptions you will in fact recover spells and abilities.

So the typical pattern is to fight a handful of battles and then successfully rest. Though doing this at level one is questionable because of the tiny amount of power that you have. If you have a level three party, doing this is easily possible.

If I get an NPC to join my party, and they have a lower level than the rest of the group I tend to do this a few times to bring their level up to the rest of the group.

Anyhow, this does not change the quality of the review in question, but I just wanted to comment on its feasibility.

I still can’t get past the moathouse in iron man mode, even having full knowledge of what is coming. Had to switch to normal mode just so I could start to see the rest of the game. I am rather amazed at how difficult the first areas can be. Combined with the rather complex rule set ToEE is based on, the game is not very accessible. As a single data point, my wife who has played through and loved both fallout and Arcanum gave ToEE a try and after getting wasted by some zombies for the fifth time in a row lost interest in continuing.

 

[moron]

Hey guys, the moron responsible for the review here. Anyway, let me start by saying that phrases like "moron who wrote the review" don't make this site look too professional. I much prefer the neutral tone of RPGDot.

Anyway, I don't feel the need to explain my review and my rating. I hold Troika in high regard, and I lost count of how many times I played Fallout and Arcanum. If you don't like my review, suck it up and move to other reviews. In fact, my reviews aren't aimed at people who already have the game; they are aimed at people who are still deciding whether to purchase the game or not, and ToEE is clearly not a game I'd recommend with a clear conscience.

However, I think that for making my review so popular (other news sources already linked to your article) you deserve the courtesy of some clarification. I got the game the day it was released. I was unable to install and play it on both of my home computers that were good enough for the game, according to the box. The disc locked up in my Dell Inspiron CD-ROM, and my HP Pavilon didn't recognize it once I tried to run the game. Fortunatelly for me, I work as a SysOp for a small company, and had 12 computers available where I could test the game. You can see the results of my testing in the "Technical considerations" section.

One thing I learned early into my reviewing career was always to write down how much I spent with the game. According to my records, I spent over 60 hours playing it. During that time, I managed to finish the game only once. I was foolish enough to try the Ironman mode for several games, but the frustration at experiencing game-stopping bugs was too much for me. I switched to the normal mode, and once I got lucky enough to finish the game.

In an earlier piece I mentioned that I demand good documentation in game releases. To test whether a documentation is good or not, I spend considerable amoung of time without any outside information about the game. Thus, I didn't know that I should not rest in places where monsters will be stuck in walls. I didn't know that my monk shouldn't pick a certain feat if he wanted to gain monk levels. I never suspected that wearing a certain armor would crash my game. I could go on and on witl all the bugs that made my gaming experience miserable (please note that I reflected this in my review - while the game got an above-average 6.3, the gameplay got a sub-par 4). Only last week, when I wrote the first draft of my review, I went to the forums and copied the bugs list into a Word document and printed it out, in order to have some additional references when writing the review (I was so mad at the game that I forgot to take notes, as I usually do). If anything, the forums have forced me to cut some slack; my original rating was 5.8, with the gameplay being at 2. Only after visiting the forums I realized that not everyboy had the same amount of problems than I did.

I stand behind my rating and my review. If you don't like it, your best bet is pressuring other sites to inflate their scores, in order to offset my rating on sites like Gamerankings. I honestly hope, though, that I saved at least a couple of people from paying $50 for this pile of bugs.

 

[chrisbeddoes]

Hey guys, the moron responsible for the review here. Anyway, let me start by saying that phrases like "moron who wrote the review" don't make this site look too professional. I much prefer the neutral tone of RPGDot.

Anyway, I don't feel the need to explain my review and my rating. I hold Troika in high regard, and I lost count of how many times I played Fallout and Arcanum. If you don't like my review, suck it up and move to other reviews. In fact, my reviews aren't aimed at people who already have the game; they are aimed at people who are still deciding whether to purchase the game or not, and ToEE is clearly not a game I'd recommend with a clear conscience.

However, I think that for making my review so popular (other news sources already linked to your article) you deserve the courtesy of some clarification. I got the game the day it was released. I was unable to install and play it on both of my home computers that were good enough for the game, according to the box. The disc locked up in my Dell Inspiron CD-ROM, and my HP Pavilon didn't recognize it once I tried to run the game. Fortunatelly for me, I work as a SysOp for a small company, and had 12 computers available where I could test the game. You can see the results of my testing in the "Technical considerations" section.

One thing I learned early into my reviewing career was always to write down how much I spent with the game. According to my records, I spent over 60 hours playing it. During that time, I managed to finish the game only once. I was foolish enough to try the Ironman mode for several games, but the frustration at experiencing game-stopping bugs was too much for me. I switched to the normal mode, and once I got lucky enough to finish the game.

In an earlier piece I mentioned that I demand good documentation in game releases. To test whether a documentation is good or not, I spend considerable amoung of time without any outside information about the game. Thus, I didn't know that I should not rest in places where monsters will be stuck in walls. I didn't know that my monk shouldn't pick a certain feat if he wanted to gain monk levels. I never suspected that wearing a certain armor would crash my game. I could go on and on witl all the bugs that made my gaming experience miserable (please note that I reflected this in my review - while the game got an above-average 6.3, the gameplay got a sub-par 4). Only last week, when I wrote the first draft of my review, I went to the forums and copied the bugs list into a Word document and printed it out, in order to have some additional references when writing the review (I was so mad at the game that I forgot to take notes, as I usually do). If anything, the forums have forced me to cut some slack; my original rating was 5.8, with the gameplay being at 2. Only after visiting the forums I realized that not everyboy had the same amount of problems than I did.

I stand behind my rating and my review. If you don't like it, your best bet is pressuring other sites to inflate their scores, in order to offset my rating on sites like Gamerankings. I honestly hope, though, that I saved at least a couple of people from paying $50 for this pile of bugs.

Timeless.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Despite your writing here shows an intelligence almost parallel to mine own, your name says it all to me big guy.

 

[Shevek]

Hey guys, the moron responsible for the review here. Anyway, let me start by saying that phrases like "moron who wrote the review" don't make this site look too professional. I much prefer the neutral tone of RPGDot.

Anyway, I don't feel the need to explain my review and my rating. I hold Troika in high regard, and I lost count of how many times I played Fallout and Arcanum. If you don't like my review, suck it up and move to other reviews. In fact, my reviews aren't aimed at people who already have the game; they are aimed at people who are still deciding whether to purchase the game or not, and ToEE is clearly not a game I'd recommend with a clear conscience.

However, I think that for making my review so popular (other news sources already linked to your article) you deserve the courtesy of some clarification. I got the game the day it was released. I was unable to install and play it on both of my home computers that were good enough for the game, according to the box. The disc locked up in my Dell Inspiron CD-ROM, and my HP Pavilon didn't recognize it once I tried to run the game. Fortunatelly for me, I work as a SysOp for a small company, and had 12 computers available where I could test the game. You can see the results of my testing in the "Technical considerations" section.

One thing I learned early into my reviewing career was always to write down how much I spent with the game. According to my records, I spent over 60 hours playing it. During that time, I managed to finish the game only once. I was foolish enough to try the Ironman mode for several games, but the frustration at experiencing game-stopping bugs was too much for me. I switched to the normal mode, and once I got lucky enough to finish the game.

In an earlier piece I mentioned that I demand good documentation in game releases. To test whether a documentation is good or not, I spend considerable amoung of time without any outside information about the game. Thus, I didn't know that I should not rest in places where monsters will be stuck in walls. I didn't know that my monk shouldn't pick a certain feat if he wanted to gain monk levels. I never suspected that wearing a certain armor would crash my game. I could go on and on witl all the bugs that made my gaming experience miserable (please note that I reflected this in my review - while the game got an above-average 6.3, the gameplay got a sub-par 4). Only last week, when I wrote the first draft of my review, I went to the forums and copied the bugs list into a Word document and printed it out, in order to have some additional references when writing the review (I was so mad at the game that I forgot to take notes, as I usually do). If anything, the forums have forced me to cut some slack; my original rating was 5.8, with the gameplay being at 2. Only after visiting the forums I realized that not everyboy had the same amount of problems than I did.

I stand behind my rating and my review. If you don't like it, your best bet is pressuring other sites to inflate their scores, in order to offset my rating on sites like Gamerankings. I honestly hope, though, that I saved at least a couple of people from paying $50 for this pile of bugs.

In that entire thing, the man did not reply to any of the major criticisms of his review. He did not address the "breaking the main quest comment." He did not deal with the resting restrictions snafu. The "cheap experience" thing was not expanded on either. He even added insult to injury by making yet another snafu with respect to the Monk feats since the manual details monk bonus feats on page 52 of the manual. Oh well.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Hey guys, the moron responsible for the review here. Anyway, let me start by saying that phrases like "moron who wrote the review" don't make this site look too professional. I much prefer the neutral tone of RPGDot.

Who said we ever wanted to look professional? But, while I'm on the subject of professionalism..

• Aren't you the guy who wrote a review saying ToEE had spawning grounds?
• Aren't you the guy who wrote a review saying resting wasn't covered in the manual?
• Aren't you the guy who said formations affect surprise?
• Aren't you the guy who complained about the lack of documented hotkeys for things in the game? (I'll explain this one, it's like that so you can assign your own hotkeys - this is explained in the manual)
• Aren't you the guy who said the list of bugs is eight pages long? (It's not, it's a discussion thread on bugs, and many of them are changes to the rules from 3E to 3.5E or rules correcly implimented which BioWare didn't impliment correctly)
• Aren't you the guy who said that monsters stuck in walls won't let you end combat? (In fact, combat won't even START when this happens, just hit C to get them out of those walls.)

I'll stop there. Your review is about as unprofessional as it gets, boy. It's grossly inaccurate, and down right false in places. Perhaps you should spend less time reading the forum for things and more time playing the game yourself.

In fact, my reviews aren't aimed at people who already have the game; they are aimed at people who are still deciding whether to purchase the game or not, and ToEE is clearly not a game I'd recommend with a clear conscience.

Of course it's aimed as those who haven't played the game. Those who have played it would know your review is ludicriously inaccurate!

I'm also not faulting you for pointing out flaws in the game, I'm faulting you for making them up or not checking your damned facts. Don't even BEGIN to preach to me about what is or isn't professional when you do that.

However, I think that for making my review so popular (other news sources already linked to your article) you deserve the courtesy of some clarification.

I'm not sure popular is the right word for it, unless you think PeeWee Herman got more popular after getting caught spanking off in a public theater.

I got the game the day it was released. I was unable to install and play it on both of my home computers that were good enough for the game, according to the box. The disc locked up in my Dell Inspiron CD-ROM, and my HP Pavilon didn't recognize it once I tried to run the game. Fortunatelly for me, I work as a SysOp for a small company, and had 12 computers available where I could test the game. You can see the results of my testing in the "Technical considerations" section.

I would question the competitence level of any IT person who buys an HP Pavilion, especially one who doesn't know how to update the firmware on those drives they ship with. HP Pavilions are notorious for shipping with cheap drives that use outdated firmware, which is why HP has a nice, special page on their site devoted to firmware updates for that series of computer.

Oddly enough, I have two computers in my house that are currently up and running, and ToEE worked great on both. This is probably because they are both maintained by someone who actually knows what they are doing!

One thing I learned early into my reviewing career was always to write down how much I spent with the game.

You'd think you would have learned not to take forum posts as gospel. Instead, though, I'll think you're more likely to learn that cutting and pasting forum posts and calling it a "review" is a real time saver.

In an earlier piece I mentioned that I demand good documentation in game releases. To test whether a documentation is good or not, I spend considerable amoung of time without any outside information about the game.

Try openning the manual next time. You won't get much from the documentation by staring at the cover.

Thus, I didn't know that I should not rest in places where monsters will be stuck in walls.

Why not? That's actually the best place TO rest if you're interested in exploiting a bug.

I didn't know that my monk shouldn't pick a certain feat if he wanted to gain monk levels.

Uh? What? It's not the feat, it's picking another class that halts monk advancement. Sounds to me like you got this from a forum post.

I never suspected that wearing a certain armor would crash my game.

Yup, nice bug there. Switching maps with a bard's song effect on them crashes it as well.

 

[Seven]

Hey guys, the moron responsible for the review here. Anyway, let me start by saying that phrases like "moron who wrote the review" don't make this site look too professional.

You obviously don't know codex. BTW, nice post, do you also walk around with a sign that says "bend me over and ream me".