Review NMA's World of Pure Imagination

[Jason]

Tags: Fallout 3

In an attempt to avoid the reality of a Bethesda Fallout 3, NMA's Kharn retreated into a fantasyland where ZeniMax never bought Fallout and Fallout 3 is actually a new post-apoc IP from Bethesda known as <b>Capital Wasteland: Revelation</b>. The poor demented lad has gone on to write a <a href="http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=47192" target="blank">review</a> of this imaginary, Fallout-less game.
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<blockquote>To come full circle, here's another way this game reminds me of Oblivion: it tries to wow you with first impressions and then just basically entice you on. Both games are like hot cheerleaders who you follow a year as they tease you on. And finally you sleep with them (both). And maybe this realization hits outright, maybe it takes a few years, but at some point you'll suddenly go: “hey, hang on, they were crap in the sack!” Capital Wasteland: Revelation works like that: it tries to wow you, sometimes in rather farcical ways (a mini-nuke catapult? Really?), and then it tries to take you by the nose and have you explore as you try to find the next awesome spot. But the thing is: most spots are really boring, a lot of quests are uninteresting and none of the NPCs come even close to being memorable...except for Moira Brown: I have never felt so passionate about killing any NPC as I did her, sometimes I had no choice but to exit dialog and shoot her in the face because she's just that annoying.
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Here is the real shocker: even though this game does not excel at much except creating annoying NPCs, it is still a good game. Because sometimes, even when the cheerleader is crap in the sack, it's still fun to chase after her. But more importantly, for years now RPG designers have focused purely on pretty graphics and fun combat, and while Capital Wasteland: Revelation also does that, it is a rare return to values of quest design we know of from Black Isle Studios and Troika, an approach that says quests have to be interesting, have to have multiple solutions and your choices really do matter. The latter point is probably the weakest one for CW:R and there are plenty of bad quests to turn you away, but this is still a remarkable accomplishment that I did not expect after Oblivion.</blockquote>
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If you ever get into an argument with Kharn and don't mind pulling things out of context, just point out the time he compared Bethesda favorably with Troika and Black Isle. Game over, r00fles, etc.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.nma-fallout.com/">No Mutants Allowed</A>

 

[Brother None]

If you ever get into an argument with Kharn and don't mind pulling things out of context, just point out the time he compared Bethesda favorably with Troika and Black Isle. Game over, r00fles, etc.

R00fles...why not, though?

Explain to me how, structurally, quests like the Wasteland Survival Guide, Tenpenny Towers or the Replicated Man are not just as good as anything BIS or Troika produced. They give you real choices, offer a variety of skills to be tested, give different rewards for different solutions and factor in long-term consequences (at least Tenpenny Towers does). The only problem in structure is Bethesda's predilection to fall back on dungeon crawl solutions.

That's pure structure, and structural design. When it comes to dialogue writing, consistency of setting and memorability of NPCs, Bethesda doesn't even reach the lowest standards, let alone those set by Troika/BIS. But that's no reason not to give credit where credit's due.

 

[thesheeep]

But that's no reason not to give credit where credit's due.

The "problem" is that not too many people here seem to share that insight.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Wrap it up, Fallout 3 haters.

WRAP

IT

UP

 

[inwoker]

When is Vince's review?

 

[Brother None]

When is Vince's review?

Within the week.

 

[Tintin]

Said that last week.

 

[Vault Dweller]

When is Vince's review?

It's done. Sneak peak:

Introduction

Fallout 3 is the third instalment in the award-winning series beloved by children and young adults. The game continues mature themes of exploring a huge world, looting everything that isn't nailed down, killing anything that looks at you funny, and levelling up. While there were other games in the series, no one at Bethesda could remember Arena and Daggerfall, so they stuck with Morrowind and Oblivion for the purpose of determining what exactly they "do well".

Even though the box clearly states that it’s Fallout and adds a very convincing "3", it’s not a Fallout game. It's not even a game inspired by Fallout, as I had hoped. It's a game that contains a loose assortment of familiar Fallout concepts and names, which is why you start the game in a "Vault", get a "Pipboy" device, become buddies with the "Brotherhood of Steel", shoot some "Super Mutants", and stop the evil "Enclave" from doing bad things to good people in a post-apocalyptic "retro-future" America. The main plot revolves around water (Fallout 1 plot) and requires a G.E.C.K. (Fallout 2 plot), thus assuring you that you really are playing a 100% authentic, notary certified Fallout game. With, like, vaults and stuff. Let's take a closer look, shall we?

 

[tunguska]

That is beautiful. VD is a good writer. That little paragraph nearly brings a tear to my remaining eye. Perfect prose. Please don't be pressured into releasing your review until it's done. I am really looking forward to reading it. If only for infotainment purposes.

 

[Balor]

When is Vince's review?

It's done. Sneak peak:

Introduction

Fallout 3 is the third instalment in the award-winning series beloved by children and young adults. The game continues mature themes of exploring a huge world, looting everything that isn't nailed down, killing anything that looks at you funny, and levelling up. While there were other games in the series, no one at Bethesda could remember Arena and Daggerfall, so they stuck with Morrowind and Oblivion for the purpose of determining what exactly they "do well".

Even though the box clearly states that it’s Fallout and adds a very convincing "3", it’s not a Fallout game. It's not even a game inspired by Fallout, as I had hoped. It's a game that contains a loose assortment of familiar Fallout concepts and names, which is why you start the game in a "Vault", get a "Pipboy" device, become buddies with the "Brotherhood of Steel", shoot some "Super Mutants", and stop the evil "Enclave" from doing bad things to good people in a post-apocalyptic "retro-future" America. The main plot revolves around water (Fallout 1 plot) and requires a G.E.C.K. (Fallout 2 plot), thus assuring you that you really are playing a 100% authentic, notary certified Fallout game. With, like, vaults and stuff. Let's take a closer look, shall we?

Oh, this is going to be EPIC!
Can't wait.

 

[Kingston]

VD, I hope you included the fact that "War, war never changes" is said twice in the intro movie. You know, 'cos that'll get those old Fallout fans twice as excited.

 

[Hory]

Explain to me how, structurally, quests like the Wasteland Survival Guide, Tenpenny Towers or the Replicated Man are not just as good as anything BIS or Troika produced. They give you real choices, offer a variety of skills to be tested, give different rewards for different solutions and factor in long-term consequences (at least Tenpenny Towers does).

Jesus, another guy who thinks the Tenpenny Towers quest is good. I recall it to be particularly retarded, since the interactions with the characters were largely identical, and you always had the exact three lines to ask each of them. You could tell that someone who was particularly uncreative/lazy had been assigned to it. Yeah, you're given a few choices, but they're brain-dead straightforward, and involve mainly walking (with the omnipresent occasional combat).

Wasteland Survival Guide isn't even a quest, it's just debriefing/lying for visiting certain shallow locations. Contrary to what the dialogue implies, it doesn't have any consequences based on whether it's well written or not.

The problem with The Replicated Man being an acceptably good quest by BIS/Troika standards is that this level of quality has been already reached more than 10 years ago. Currently, developers just barely and occasionally reach what was accomplished back then. I understand that a console kid might be impressed, but haven't your standards, Brother None, evolved at all in ten years of life?

 

[Vault Dweller]

The problem with The Replicated Man being an acceptably good quest by BIS/Troika standards is that this level of quality has been already reached more than 10 years ago.

So? What was good 10 years ago no longer good now? Considering that that 10 year old design remains the best and hasn't really been beaten, I don't see why Bethesda doesn't deserve a praise for coming close to it.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

I agree with what he said about Moira Brown. Unbelievably annoying. I can't remember the last time I found a character in a video game so damn irritating.

 

[Hory]

So? What was good 10 years ago no longer good now?

It's not as enjoyable for someone who already experienced that level of goodness. One, I assume, would become more and more accustomed to the taste, and start desiring more. At least that's how it's happening with women, drugs, music, and so on.

Considering that that 10 year old design remains the best and hasn't really been beaten, I don't see why Bethesda doesn't deserve a praise for coming close to it.

Maybe they deserve praise in the context of today's offering, but that doesn't say much. It's irrelevant how good a product is when compared to "shit".
They don't deserve any praise in the context of games as an art form. Their company is over 20 years old, yet they're hardly getting close to the level games were at 10 years ago. What are they doing so respect-worthy in the craft of game production?
Do you think that Bethesda accomplished anything in FO3 that will be remembered 50 years from now, in the history of video game development? Can you say the same about FO1/2? That's why it's not as good.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Wasteland Survival Guide isn't even a quest, it's just debriefing/lying for visiting certain shallow locations. Contrary to what the dialogue implies, it doesn't have any consequences based on whether it's well written or not.

Yes it does. You get a good random encounter with an NPC thanking you with an item for a well-written guide, and an NPC that attacks you for releasing a bad guide.

 

[Brother None]

Wasteland Survival Guide isn't even a quest, it's just debriefing/lying for visiting certain shallow locations. Contrary to what the dialogue implies, it doesn't have any consequences based on whether it's well written or not.

Other than the dude you meet, the perk you get at the end changes depending on how you did the quest: it has 3 levels based on how many optional side-quests you did, and adds to stats depending on what kind of responses you chose. See here

I understand that a console kid might be impressed, but haven't your standards, Brother None, evolved at all in ten years of life?

Game development has been slow in many areas, like AI or in this case quest design. If a game then (ocassionally) equals the highest levels of quest structure that we've seen in the entire existence of cRPGs, then I'm going to say "wow, well done" and not "fuck you for not being better than anything we've ever seen".

Do you think that Bethesda accomplished anything in FO3 that will be remembered 50 years from now, in the history of video game development? Can you say the same about FO1/2? That's why it's not as good.

Who said Fallout 3 is as good as Fallout 1/2? That's ridiculous. Taken whole, Fallout 3 is a good game, with a lot of crap and some great moments. It's not a classic, nor did I ever say it was.

 

[HanoverF]

Maybe they deserve praise in the context of today's offering, but that doesn't say much. It's irrelevant how good a product is when compared to "shit".
They don't deserve any praise in the context of games as an art form. Their company is over 20 years old, yet they're hardly getting close to the level games were at 10 years ago. What are they doing so respect-worthy in the craft of game production?

That's one thing I don't get with the (ultimately) positive reviews. To me it just speaks more to how very pathetically low standards have sunk. Or how very low peoples expectations of Beth making a <s>good</s> game were. A light scattering of quests where you can use multiple solutions or dialog to resolve doesn't make up for the rest of the horrible quests, or hours of painfully bad combat, poorly realized world, atrocious dialog, pathetic console UI.

 

[Hory]

Other than the dude you meet, the perk you get at the end changes depending on how you did the quest: it has 3 levels based on how many optional side-quests you did, and adds to stats depending on what kind of responses you chose. See here

I didn't meet him, and in this case, it's also Bethesda's fault. In any case, I was talking about greater consequences, as it could have been worthy of inclusion in the end narration.

Game development has been slow in many areas, like AI or in this case quest design. If a game then (ocassionally) equals the highest levels of quest structure that we've seen in the entire existence of cRPGs, then I'm going to say "wow, well done" and not "fuck you for not being better than anything we've ever seen".

The problem is that if you praise a quest as being of Fallout-level, it will reflect unevenly on FO3, unless you'll criticize each and every other quest which isn't as good. Usually, the gameplay in FO3 sucks, and to imply similarity with Troika/BIS games by comparing exceptions is misleading.

Who said Fallout 3 is as good as Fallout 1/2? That's ridiculous. Taken whole, Fallout 3 is a good game, with a lot of crap and some great moments. It's not a classic, nor did I ever say it was.

I was replying to VD as to why a good, exception-from-the-rule quest of today isn't as good as the quests from ten years ago, which were in the context of "consistent goodness", as well as innovation.

 

[DarkSign]

I understand that a console kid might be impressed, but haven't your standards, Brother None, evolved at all in ten years of life?

Game development has been slow in many areas, like AI or in this case quest design. If a game then (ocassionally) equals the highest levels of quest structure that we've seen in the entire existence of cRPGs, then I'm going to say "wow, well done" and not "fuck you for not being better than anything we've ever seen".

You're both right and both wrong, simply because you're confusing two elements: technology and fiction.

As regards fiction - well written quests with choices and consequences worked into the storyline, being just as good as 10 years ago is perfectly acceptable....even laudable. New best sellers aren't crap simply because they're "only as good as 10 years ago." Most books can't hold a candle to Homer's Iliad, created thousands of years ago. By the same token, human beings have increased in sophistication and may require more to remain interested. What was funny in the 20s and 30s may seem childish compared to a hard-core set at The Laugh Factory today.

But there in lies the problem with discussing a computer game... they aren't just fiction. You don't simply flip a page or stare blankly onto a page. They are interactive via technology.

So to say a quest is only as good as 10 years ago vis-a-vis technology....then that could be bad. Better AI, better processing speeds, a rubric of better gameplay might have advanced in time.

To expect some advancement isn't crazy for a cRPG...but when there's been naught else that's touched FO1, something that finally (maybe) does shouldnt be kicked in the teeth.

 

[Hory]

Thing is, there have been post-Fallout games that have touched Fallout's level, and they did it more consistently and to a higher degree than FO3 does. If only 5% of its quests do it, shouldn't one criticize them 95% of the time when quests are the subject? This isn't what's happening at all, that's what bothered me.
Our arguing doesn't really accomplish anything either, so that's it from me on the subject.

 

[dagorkan]

Can't wait for the VD review, snippet sounds like it will be amazing

 

[DarkUnderlord]

The review fails on believability for its alternate world as I sincerely doubt Kharn has ever slept with one cheerleader, let alone two.

 

[Brother None]

We don't really have cheerleaders in our country, so you're probably right DU.

Usually, the gameplay in FO3 sucks, and to imply similarity with Troika/BIS games by comparing exceptions is misleading.

I'm not sure I agree. Of the named, PipBoy-tied quests, I'd say the majority is "interesting".

Also, again, I'm not talking about gameplay in general, or how much of the gameplay sucks, I'm just talking about the structural side of game design.

 

[Barrow_Bug]

That is beautiful. VD is a good writer. That little paragraph nearly brings a tear to my remaining eye. Perfect prose. Please don't be pressured into releasing your review until it's done. I am really looking forward to reading it. If only for infotainment purposes.

And The Lord Said: Let the Semen flow Forth!