Review Another retarded...er, I mean, Armchair Empire likes KOTOR

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

<a href=http://www.armchairempire.com>Armchair Empire</a> decided to share with you <a href=http://www.armchairempire.com/Reviews/PC%20Games/star-wars-knights-old-republic.htm>some thoughts</a> on <a href=http://www.bioware.com/games/knights_old_republic>KOTOR</a>, a game that deserves no less then <b>9.1</b> for various reasons.
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<blockquote>Role-playing game (RPG) purists – classified by the rabidity of their passion for the genre – seem to have more negative things to say about KOTOR than the typical gamer. I can’t really address their complaints, as I tend to fall into the typical gamer category</blockquote>
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Conclusion: typical gamer=moron who can't add two plus two and notice anything.
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<blockquote>Most of the RPG standards are here: collecting cool doo-dads, lots of side quests, increasing your stats, team building, wasting bad guys. It’s all done in a hybrid real-time/turn-based presentation that really does work, although the control takes some getting used to.
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When you’re exploring, everything is real-time but once you jump into combat KOTOR shifts to turn-based action. While turned-based combat may seem weird considering all the Star Wars action games that have been released, it works</blockquote>
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For the love of God, can somebody explain why people think that it's turn-based?
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<blockquote>And really, it was the only way to go as you can have a party of <b>four</b> characters</blockquote>
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Oh, I see, that certainly explains a lot. Another review written without the added benefit of actually playing the game.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.rpgdot.com">RPG Dot</A>

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Re: Another retarded...er, I mean, Armchair Empire likes KO

Conclusion: typical gamer=moron who can't add two plus two and notice anything.

Shudder my udders and call me Blackie, but that one was a bit out of line there, VD

 

[Volourn]

I think people get tricked into beleiveing that BIO's game are tb combat because the combat is not based on reflexes like true RT. That's why it should be termed pause n play; or pseudo RT or pseudo tb. It's a sold and great mix of both, imo.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Calling it real time with pause works just fine, given that's what it is.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, Blackie, here is how I see it. This reviewer and many others, including our recent guests from New Wave Gaming, indicated that only an RPG geek would find anything wrong with KOTOR which is otherwise an outstanding masterpiece that took RPG genre to the whole new level. This is not true, to put it simply. The reasons have been explained many times, so there is no need to start another round. So, since the reviewer basically said that a typical gamer wouldn't even be able to understand the nature of the complains, I drew the conclusion in question. Was I wrong to think so?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I agree with Role-Player. Armchair Empire is a fairly good site, and at least the reviewer acknowledges his standards for CRPGs aren't as high as hardcore roleplaying gamers going in to the review. Most sites wouldn't do that.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Well, Blackie, here is how I see it. This reviewer and many others, including our recent guests from New Wave Gaming, indicated that only an RPG geek would find anything wrong with KOTOR which is otherwise an outstanding masterpiece that took RPG genre to the whole new level. This is not true, to put it simply. The reasons have been explained many times, so there is no need to start another round. So, since the reviewer basically said that a typical gamer wouldn't even be able to understand the nature of the complains, I drew the conclusion in question. Was I wrong to think so?

No, you were right. However the problem is that that line of thought doesn't relate to what you posted. The reviewer only said he couldn't address purist's complains because he admitted from the get-go he was a casual gamer; whereas calling casual gamers morons just because of that comment was in my opinion unnecessary and unrelated.

 

[Vault Dweller]

No, you were right. However the problem is that that line of thought doesn't relate to what you posted. The reviewer only said he couldn't address purist's complains because he admitted from the get-go he was a casual gamer; whereas calling casual gamers morons just because of that comment was in my opinion unnecessary and unrelated.

Did you miss "Conclusion" before my very offensive line? You know as in the necessary consequence of two or more propositions taken as premises.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I agree with Role-Player. Armchair Empire is a fairly good site, and at least the reviewer acknowledges his standards for CRPGs aren't as high as hardcore roleplaying gamers going in to the review. Most sites wouldn't do that.

What that got to do with anything? If the only complains were about some sekret DnD rules, then yeah, that would make sense, but I believe even a casual SW fan would spot some questionable inconsistencies and even a casual RPG gamer would feel that the game could have been so much more. And as for the site, here is their review of NWN

http://www.armchairempire.com/Reviews/P ... nights.htm

I’ll admit to being a bit wary when I first opened Neverwinter Nights (NWN). The hype had become a big problem for me. Now, unlike some people, I don’t dismiss a game simply because it is being hyped heavily in the mainstream press. My problem with the NWN hype was that it mostly involved the game’s editing suite. So little was being said about the actual game that I became worried that the single player game was just a bonus for buying the marvelous, modular NN tool kit. Thankfully, soon after installing NWN on my hard drive, my niggling fears went directly away. Neverwinter Nights is a brilliant and highly polished RPG masterpiece, and I have never been so glad to be wrong.

For those who can't read small fonts: NWN OC is a brilliant and highly polished RPG masterpiece.
Any questions?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Role-playing game (RPG) purists – classified by the rabidity of their passion for the genre – seem to have more negative things to say about KOTOR than the typical gamer. I can’t really address their complaints, as I tend to fall into the typical gamer category

Conclusion: typical gamer=moron who can't add two plus two and notice anything.

Where exactly did one lead to the other? He just pointed out that he couldn't address other's complaints because he wasn't sure of what were the specifics of said complaints. He didn't exactly say he didn't understood them. If he isn't aware of a general set of complains, that doesn't make him a moron per se.

 

[Sol Invictus]

But it does make him a lazy ignorant bastard who's too much of a lazy and ignorant bastard to do a little research (translation: google.com) before writing the review. I don't think that an argument from ignorance should excuse anyone when they've got the means to alleviate the issue.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Conclusion: typical gamer=moron who can't add two plus two and notice anything.

Where exactly did one lead to the other? He just pointed out that he couldn't address other's complaints because he wasn't sure of what were the specifics of said complaints. He didn't exactly say he didn't understood them. If he isn't aware of a general set of complains, that doesn't make him a moron per se.

I see. A lesson in logic and reading comprehension is in order:

Role-playing game (RPG) purists – classified by the rabidity of their passion for the genre – seem to have more negative things to say about KOTOR than the typical gamer

The reviewer acknowledges the negative opinions do exist but attributed them mostly to RPG purists who are, as the reviewer explains, not just some fans of the genre but rabid fans. The adjective is being used as to explain negativity, the same way as the negativity toward FOBOS was blamed on rabid Fallot fans.

I can’t really address their complaints, as I tend to fall into the typical gamer category

"I can't address the complains as I'm a typical (not some rabid fan) gamer" means either that he is unaware of what the rabid ones are talking about or that he's aware but doesn't really get it being a typical gamer.

So, the first conclusion is that most typical gamers would not have any issues with the game (as none are mentioned). Considering that the game has many different issues that are hard not to spot, the second conclusion is that a typical gamer is unable to notice those, thus the moron comment.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

But it does make him a lazy ignorant bastard who's too much of a lazy and ignorant bastard to do a little research (translation: google.com) before writing the review. I don't think that an argument from ignorance should excuse anyone when they've got the means to alleviate the issue.

Not saying otherwise, but look at this from this angle. Some guy does a review, and claims there is a certain amount of criticism on behalf of purists, and admits he doesn't know what the criticism is. True, that is not excusing him of the ignorance. However, as a comeback, our ole VD, by the words of one admitedly casual and obviously lazy reviewer, rounds up every casual gamer, and tosses them all into the "moron" sack, implying they are morons who can't think and notice the most obvious of things (when in fact, these "obvious" things aren't that obvious, otherwise the casual gamer would be aware of them).

Dub me Skorpio v2.0. if you want, but to me that seems out of line, regardless.

 

[Vault Dweller]

*sighs
I didn't say that all casual gamers are morons, I said "conclusion: ..." as in that's the conclusion one might draw after reading the review. Not that I disagree with that

 

[Volourn]

Obviously, the causal fan doesn't see any major problems with KOTOR so he was dead on there. None of us here could be considered "causual" fans as we sit here all day nitpicking silly games.

 

[Greenskin13]

Why would people want to hear reviews from casual gamers? Wouldn't they prefer a review from someone with an indepth analyisis and experience? When I go out to buy a car, I don't want to hear what my neighbor thinks. I want to hear things from someone with critical skills who can tell me if they have one-too-many cupholders or if the fuel system is faulty.

 

[EvoG]

I play all so-called 'hardcore' crpg's AND I really enjoyed KotoR. Its kind of amazing that you guys waste this much effort to dislike something when its just a game. Who gives a damn what they call what or who made what or that it doesn't do this or that.

Is it fun? For most people including me, yes.

Did anyone here who complains about it really give it a try and play it through to the end? Probably not, yet if they did, they'd probably 'try' and dislike it so whats the point, right?

Its exhausting day after day to read the headlines like "Some fucktard likes this piece of shit!", then to read a point by point breakdown and response full of negativity, albeit, consistent and predictable.

I mean hell get over it. People are gonna like what they're gonna like. Why not just talk about what YOU like, not bash on everyone who doesn't like what you like or likes what they like that you don't like.(say that sentence without tripping).

The reviewer isn't in any way a moron, wrote a perfectly good review, and believe it or not, KotoR is a really good game. Not a good Uber Stat driven(there are about 8 - 12 stats and lots of force powers), ultra deep inventory(actually there are lots of stuff), multi-tiered dialog behemoth of an rpg(hmmm...convo's do get rather involved come to think of it), but it still is an rpg and it is very well made. Point is I'll agree with you most of the time on games that are low in quality and you can tell it was made to just get made or make money, but this isn't the case here.

Also sounds like someone has aspirations of being Saint-Lite.tm.

Cheers

 

[Volourn]

Green, there's a difference in buying a car and buying a agme. If you can't see the difference; there's a problem.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Still it makes sense that you'd ask someone who's knowledgable with a product for opinions on it before buying it, wouldn't it?

 

[Volourn]

Aye; which is why you want someone who played the game to review it.

 

[Greenskin13]

I'm aware for that Volorun. But I'm still investing money in something. Call me frugal, but I'd rather not spend cash on something I won't enjoy for more than an hour. While the dissapointment in a car and one in a game has a difference of several thousand dollars, I still feel ripped off at the end of the day. When Halo came out, everyone was preaching GOTY. They said that the repititiion was just a minor flaw, but when I played it I found it to be completely crippling. Really, I would have rather used that money to buy something else, but alas, the day.

 

[Spazmo]

Don't worry, EvoG, we'll go easy on Phoenix. You can even put in horribly lame NPC romances and we'll look the other way!

And you'll know that Vault Dweller, Exitium, Saint and I have all played through KOTOR at least once. I think we all enjoyed the game overall, but we agree that it's not a great RPG and it's sure as hell not worthy of the accolades it's been getting.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Obviously, the causal fan doesn't see any major problems with KOTOR so he was dead on there. None of us here could be considered "causual" fans as we sit here all day nitpicking silly games.

Did you just call me a rabid fan? Well, anyway, there are many issues in KOTOR, enough for everybody I don't expect a casual gamer to talk about linearity and discuss the nuances of character development, but I do expect them to notice that ranged combat is useless, combat is repetetive, the limited number of classes and skills/feats, that interface is fucked, and I'm sure that there are plenty of casual players who wanted to be play Darth Vader in the Academy but couldn't, etc.

Why would people want to hear reviews from casual gamers? Wouldn't they prefer a review from someone with an indepth analyisis and experience? When I go out to buy a car, I don't want to hear what my neighbor thinks. I want to hear things from someone with critical skills who can tell me if they have one-too-many cupholders or if the fuel system is faulty.

Excellent point.

Green, there's a difference in buying a car and buying a agme. If you can't see the difference; there's a problem.

The concept is the same though.

Aye; which is why you want someone who played the game to review it.

Not exactly. For example, I'd not ask most people on the Bio boards for their opinions on RPGs. As for playing the game, I'm sure that somebody who did would have remember the fact that you can have only 2 NPCs not 3 :wink:

 

[EvoG]

Don't worry, EvoG, we'll go easy on Phoenix. You can even put in horribly lame NPC romances and we'll look the other way!

And you'll know that Vault Dweller, Exitium, Saint and I have all played through KOTOR at least once. I think we all enjoyed the game overall, but we agree that it's not a great RPG and it's sure as hell not worthy of the accolades it's been getting.

Cool, though I think it does deserve the acclaim. It did everything it set out to do and executed each with very high quality and care. *shrugs* Don't see why it shouldn't.

THen again, the word 'Tard' in the title of this news post tells a slighty different story then you just did.

Cheers

 

[Vault Dweller]

I play all so-called 'hardcore' crpg's AND I really enjoyed KotoR. Its kind of amazing that you guys waste this much effort to dislike something when its just a game.

Uh, this is a website devoted to discussing games, dude. I mean, that's what we do.

Is it fun? For most people including me, yes.

You're right, it was fun. You know what else is fun? Minesweeper. I hope Phoenix would have a Minesweeper mini-game

Did anyone here who complains about it really give it a try and play it through to the end? Probably not, yet if they did, they'd probably 'try' and dislike it so whats the point, right?

Attention, we have a psychic! He knows stuff!

Its exhausting day after day to read the headlines like "Some fucktard likes this piece of shit!", then to read a point by point breakdown and response full of negativity, albeit, consistent and predictable.

Yes, it's boring to open one KOTOR review after another and read about intuitive interface completely redone for PC, turn-based combat, general awesomeness of Bio and KOTOR, etc without a paragraph devoted to actual gameplay. Like I said before, KOTOR is a decent game overall, we aren't trashing it, we are trashing reviewers.

I mean hell get over it. People are gonna like what they're gonna like. Why not just talk about what YOU like, not bash on everyone who doesn't like what you like or likes what they like that you don't like.(say that sentence without tripping).

Are you familiar with the concept of news?

The reviewer isn't in any way a moron, wrote a perfectly good review, and believe it or not, KotoR is a really good game.

I am trying to hope that Phoenix is a great game but you're not helping here A clue: the reviewer thinks that combat is turn-based and you can have 4 people in your party.

Also sounds like someone has aspirations of being Saint-Lite.tm.

How predictable. Whenever anybody has an opinion, it must be because they want to be like Darth Saint, the evil bastard from hell who never liked anything in his life, even as a child . Well, if you paid any attention, Saint disagreed with me.