Interview On Game Design and Deus Ex: Human Revolution

[Jason]

Tags: Deus Ex: Human Revolution; Eidos Montreal

<p><strong>Deus Ex: Human Revolution</strong> art director Jonathan Jacques-Belletête gave IGN a <a href="http://pc.ign.com/articles/112/1125874p1.html" target="_blank">short lesson</a> on what design is.</p>
<blockquote>IGN: I keep thinking back to Bioware, and how with Dragon Age and Mass Effect they're gradually stripping away the less intuitive elements.<br /><br />JJB: Yeah... I'm not gonna tell you what I really think of them doing that. But there's always a way to make something rather complicated work well. Our game director is a pragmatic, no-bullshit kind of guy and I'm really lucky to be working with him... one of his main skills is to ask what the reason is for something, and then make it usable and understandable.<br /><br />And that's what design is! Whether it's game design, graphic design, industrial design, it's the perfect marriage of complexity and usability. If you have a graphic interface that looks beautiful but nobody understands what it is or how to use it, or if an industrial designer makes a beautiful chair that hurts your back when you sit in it, that's bad design. There's always a way to make something work.</blockquote>
<p>The interview ends on a suspiciously positive note.</p>
<blockquote>IGN: The original Deus Ex had a lot of characters who'd lie to the player, with no foreshadowing and sometimes no explanation. Do you think there's a place for that in a modern commercial game?<br /><br />JJB: I think it definitely has a place. In just the same way that you might not find certain areas in the game, if somebody totally lies to your face and you finish the game without knowing it, that makes it more fun to replay it. It's the idea of multiple paths.</blockquote>
<p> </p>

 

[chzr]

gradually stripping away the less intuitive elements.

there are 2 words that mean exactly same thing

 

[Rohit_N]

At least the art director is talking about something that isn't about how the art style doesn't rip off Bladerunner's. That's an improvement.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Yeah, it could well be just hype. It is an interview, after all, and the purpose of those IS to hype your game. And there's no guarantee that their idea of complex-but-accessible is OUR idea of complex-but-accessible.

...but it's still nice to hear that we're an important enough segment to be worth hyping a game to. I'll give them this: the 'we're not dumbing things down' hype-element has been much more pervasive for this game than for anything Bioware and Bethesda have done recently. They spent around 95% of the hype talking about how simplified, consolised and button-mashing their game is going to be, and then once or twice over the product's marketing cycle through out a scrap saying 'nevermind everything else we've been saying - there's still detail/intelligence/rpg-mechanics here, really!'. These guys, by comparison, have been reasonably consistent.

Mind you, I think choice of game and genre could help. Deus Ex was never a complex game in terms of anything but the map design. The C+C was entirely cosmetic - the biggest change you get is skipping or delaying a boss fight, or having a different guy pop up and say the same dialogue at the same point. In terms of the rpg-mechanics, they were minimal compared to, say, FO3 even. Specter never pushed it as a rpg, and from what I've read, neither as these guys.

Deus Ex is pretty much my favourite game, and FO3 is one of my least favourite games (out of those that were tolerable enough to play - not including horrors like Oblivion here). But it isn't because DE was loaded with more complexity. Anyone who played FO3 could play Deus Ex just fine; they gave the player so much more than FO3 did, but they managed it using so much less base complexity.

Given that, I don't think you really need to 're-educate' gamers like you would with TBS games. There isn't the commercial imperitive to produce a different genre dressed up as an rpg. Deus Ex wasn't a rpg dumbed-down, it was a shooter smarted-up, and that style should still work.

It's one reason why I didn't think they needed to simplify Bioshock as much as they did. Sure, they couldn't sell it if it played like System Shock 2, where it's feasible to not be able to win the game if you make a retarded build. Those hard skill limits (not being able to even use a weapon if you lacked the right skill, having ultra expensive 'buy-in' costs for skill trees, making you think about whether or not you really need that weapon style, actual challenge in the game) would make console kiddies cry. But they already scrapped those in Deus Ex - you could pick up any weapon without skill, a small and cheap investment would give you enough accuracy to use that weapon style, and heavy weapons were effective even without any skill points invested (I almost never bother with heavy weapons skill - if you want to fry crowds or turn all opposition into chunks, you can do just fine with no points, the rocket's auto-locked-on-aim, and the flamethrowers' massive breadth/range).

 

[zeitgeist]

...but it's still nice to hear that we're an important enough segment to be worth hyping a game to. I'll give them this: the 'we're not dumbing things down' hype-element has been much more pervasive for this game than for anything Bioware and Bethesda have done recently. They spent around 95% of the hype talking about how simplified, consolised and button-mashing their game is going to be, and then once or twice over the product's marketing cycle through out a scrap saying 'nevermind everything else we've been saying - there's still detail/intelligence/rpg-mechanics here, really!'. These guys, by comparison, have been reasonably consistent.

He's not really hyping the game to "us". He's hyping the game to a recently created market segment that buys into the general concept of being like "us", as a counterculture movement to the current mainstream, but of course without actually being anything like "us". It's absolutely meaningless, they're selling the idea of playing complex games, not actual complex games.

 

[SoupNazi]

He's not really hyping the game to "us". He's hyping the game to a recently created market segment that buys into the general concept of being like "us", as a counterculture movement to the current mainstream, but of course without actually being anything like "us". It's absolutely meaningless, they're selling the idea of playing complex games, not actual complex games.

You're missing the point. The Codex, slowly and surely, is becoming just that - a counterculture dependent on the mainstream that would quickly lose purpose if there was nothing to bitch about.



Also:

The player can choose not to push him any further if they want.

IGN: Wouldn't that be like choosing not to level up in an RPG?

JJB: Obviously you might not get the full experience, but it's doable. It's totally doable. This is still a first-person shooter, and it's possible to have a lot of fun just shooting. So if you choose not to augment your hacking abilities or whatever you can still shoot your way through the front door.

On first read this scared the shit out of me but then it doesn't actually sound so bad - if only it had some impact on how other characters perceive you as well. After all, I can't think of a single point in Deus Ex where you necessarily need an augmentation or skill upgrade, things just become harder. If only the only option without augmentation didn't mean having to shoot - in the original, shooting wasn't really an option without augmentation. Hopefully the stealth in this game will be meaningful even without magic cloak and shit like that.

 

[DraQ]

IGN: I keep thinking back to Bioware, and how with Dragon Age and Mass Effect they're gradually stripping away the less intuitive elements.

JJB: Yeah... I'm not gonna tell you what I really think of them doing that. But there's always a way to make something rather complicated work well. Our game director is a pragmatic, no-bullshit kind of guy and I'm really lucky to be working with him... one of his main skills is to ask what the reason is for something, and then make it usable and understandable.

And that's what design is! Whether it's game design, graphic design, industrial design, it's the perfect marriage of complexity and usability. If you have a graphic interface that looks beautiful but nobody understands what it is or how to use it, or if an industrial designer makes a beautiful chair that hurts your back when you sit in it, that's bad design. There's always a way to make something work.

I hope it's not just empty hype. How long have I waited for a dev to discover that stripping away less intuitive elements leaves you with dumber game with less stuff in it and that the less intuitive elements should be made more intuitive instead.

IGN: The original Deus Ex had a lot of characters who'd lie to the player, with no foreshadowing and sometimes no explanation. Do you think there's a place for that in a modern commercial game?

JJB: I think it definitely has a place. In just the same way that you might not find certain areas in the game, if somebody totally lies to your face and you finish the game without knowing it, that makes it more fun to replay it. It's the idea of multiple paths.

Those hard skill limits (not being able to even use a weapon if you lacked the right skill, having ultra expensive 'buy-in' costs for skill trees, making you think about whether or not you really need that weapon style, actual challenge in the game) would make console kiddies cry.

Well, they made ME cry, but mostly due to how fucking idiotic and counterimmersive they were.

 

[hiver]

Very encouraging interview.
Shame we cant get one with the actual "no bullshit" mr game designer.



IGN: Where I've been hearing complaints is regarding the "boss"-like setup that you end the E3 demo with, with an enormous augmented bastard showing up and starting to beat up Jensen.

[Hasty discussion between Jonathon and PR types]

JJB: Alright. If I had to answer that based on what we've shown so far, I'd say that there is nothing in there that tells you that you have no choice but to fight him. Alright, you have no choice about getting hit in the face. But that's it.

 

[Jaedar]

IGN: To me, the regenerating health and cover system seem like logical steps forward for the series.
JJB: That's exactly what we think.

Why are we praising this again?

 

[MetalCraze]

You're missing the point. The Codex, slowly and surely, is becoming just that - a counterculture dependent on the mainstream that would quickly lose purpose if there was nothing to bitch about.

Hahaha are you serious? Codex plays every single overhyped mainstream game that comes out. And it will be so with Desu Ex. I wonder if there is anyone on the Codex who really thinks we are trv3 h4ardkkor3 undergr0und.

Hopefully the stealth in this game will be meaningful even without magic cloak and shit like that.

In a console game? When will you learn? Also they said there that augs don't mean shit anymore right there - not that I'm surprised.

IGN: To me, the regenerating health and cover system seem like logical steps forward for the series.
JJB: That's exactly what we think.

Why are we praising this again?

Note how nobody quotes this part which always ruins every single shooter by stripping away all dynamics and making the game piss easy. How so, "counterculture" Codex?

 

[SoupNazi]

Augmentations never really "meant" anything in the first game either. They just opened new options and new plans, but you didn't need them to finish the game.

But yeah regen health is rage-worthy. I'm just not ready to ultimately discard the entire game just because of that.

 

[thesheeep]

If the game is hard enough, auto-regen is not really a bad thing.
Then again, I've yet to play a game with auto-regen that is actually hard.

 

[AnalogKid]

Hahaha are you serious? Codex plays every single overhyped mainstream game that comes out. And it will be so with Desu Ex. I wonder if there is anyone on the Codex who really thinks we are trv3 h4ardkkor3 undergr0und.

Not anymore, its not.

To your other point, I completely reject the idea that one has to boycott crappy modern games (i.e. all modern games) in order to have a trv3 h4ardkkor3 agenda. LIKING crappy modern games (i.e. any modern game) is the essence of fail. You still gotta try 'em because there might be something mildly interesting there.

Lots of folks claim they absolutely hate teh jooos, but unless you've tried 'em crispy with a little barbeque sauce then you don't know what you're talking about, so shut-the-fuck-up!

 

[MetalCraze]

@SoupNazi: Well the fact that it will be a typical Console Shooter #23835 is enough for me. Popping heads of passive enemies while sitting behind some invulnerable box for 100th time became boring 5 years ago.

If the game is hard enough, auto-regen is not really a bad thing.
Then again, I've yet to play a game with auto-regen that is actually hard.

And this one won't be hard either. If they wanted to make it hard there wouldn't be a health regen and a magical sticky cover the whole point of which is to make a game so easy that anyone will play it.

 

[AnalogKid]

If the game is hard enough, auto-regen is not really a bad thing.

REALLY depends on the rate of regen, imo. As long as it's too slow to actually affect combat (no ducking for 3 sec. full-health BS), then it doesn't have to be terribad. If there's any way to auto-regen combat wounds while still fighting, though, then you get that whole "not very hard" thing goin' on.

 

[AnalogKid]

Well the fact that it will be a typical Console Shooter #23835 is enough for me.

I'm not super-excited about DE:HR (sounds like derp!) either, but I think what some folks are hoping for (naively?) is that it isn't just tTpical Console Shooter (tm). I'm _definitely_ not convinced by some obscure interview comments, though.

Forget about "RPGness" for a sec, which do you think has more promise to be fun, DE:HR or FO:NV?

 

[CrimHead]

In a console game? When will you learn?

Yup. Human Revolution is for both PC and Consoles. Y'know, this sounds vaguely familiar....

Gasp.

Also, nevermind that Deus Ex had regeneration as well. Regeneration that restored as much as 40 hit points per second. Power Recirculator+Regeneration makes combat trivial.

 

[FeelTheRads]

And did you play the PS2 version that you are so sure it's the same?

 

[MetalCraze]

Also, nevermind that Deus Ex had regeneration as well.

How about you will actually go and play Deus Ex?

Forget about "RPGness" for a sec, which do you think has more promise to be fun, DE:HR or FO:NV?

None. Both games are shooters and because they are multiplatform it means they need to be "adjusted" to the lowest common denominator (a guy with a gamepad). So in F3NV the enemies will be ridiculously slow again (just like in its predecessor) and in Desu Ex they will just sit behind some box.

oh and

I completely reject the idea that one has to boycott crappy modern games (i.e. all modern games) in order to have a trv3 h4ardkkor3 agenda.

Nobody hates modern games on the Codex because they are modern. But it so happens that games like F3, Desu Ex, Civ5, Mafia2 and so on are all inferior to their predecessors and carry a newer release date. Console action games can be good too when they are not going full retardo with health regens and cover systems. Even nothing-special DR2 was way better than any of the cover-regen games.

 

[CrimHead]

And did you play the PS2 version that you are so sure it's the same?

Yes. It's actually one of the best ps2 ports out there. AI, textures, models, facial expressions, and cutscenes have all been improved. The only bad thing is the longer and increased loading times. Besides that, however, it's basically the same game.

Edit: Linked to info about Deus Ex IW lol. Anywho, Skyway. There was regeneration in Deus Ex. Sorry, but you're just flat out wrong here.

 

[SoupNazi]

Also, nevermind that Deus Ex had regeneration as well. Regeneration that restored as much as 40 hit points per second. Power Recirculator+Regeneration makes combat trivial.

The difference is that in Dues Ex, it was an augmentation. An augmentation that consumed some kind of power, augmentation that wasn't automatic, and somewhat made sense in the setting. On the other hand, automatic regeneration without having to at the very least invest in a skill/augmentation (i.e. forcing you to use up a canister), which is what will apparently be in HR, is pretty stupid. Even I admit that, and I hold HR in such high hopes.

 

[DraQ]

Even popamoliest health regen has no more game breaking potential than ability to spam instaheal medkits, especially if you can do it in inventory time (DX1).

See STALKER, for instance. Health regen had almost no effect on combat, but medkit spam could often kill all the challenge.

 

[MetalCraze]

Because health regen that regenerates 1 hp per second ruins almost nothing. And medkits (or equal stuff) spam is nothing but a lack of balance (which f.e. DX1 suffers from greatly in the very late game - having a one year dev time can do that not that it's an excuse). But we are talking about the console regen here which is in DX3 on purpose - the one which gets your health to 100% in a few seconds.

 

[DraQ]

Because health regen that regenerates 1 hp per second ruins almost nothing. And medkits (or equal stuff) spam is nothing but a lack of balance (which f.e. DX1 suffers from greatly in the very late game - having a one year dev time can do that not that it's an excuse). But we are talking about the console regen here which is in DX3 on purpose - the one which gets your health to 100% in a few seconds.

Of all the stuff in game, single variables like regen rate are easiest to tweak between versions.

If they are at least 10% sincere, things look pretty good.

 

[CrimHead]

Because health regen that regenerates 1 hp per second ruins almost nothing. And medkits (or equal stuff) spam is nothing but a lack of balance (which f.e. DX1 suffers from greatly in the very late game - having a one year dev time can do that not that it's an excuse). But we are talking about the console regen here which is in DX3 on purpose - the one which gets your health to 100% in a few seconds.

Just digging yourself into a deeper hole here, buddy.

Fully upgraded regeneration in Deus Ex can bring your health to 100% multiple times DURING COMBAT. Meaning someone can shoot you and literally a second later you will be back to full health.

I think Deus Ex would be better off without that augmentation, but health regeneration in itself is not enough reason to hate a game. Period.

I mean FFS, VtmB had health regeneration.