Game News Bioware: Playing a DnD wizard is too complicated

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: BioWare; Dragon Age

<b>Marcy Darcy Pajak</b>, Bio's Assistant Producer, has made some <a href=http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=399222&post=3306329&forum=84&highlight=>comments</a> about how hard it is to play a wizard in DnD games (it's a rocket science if you listen to Darcy), and dropped a few hints about the <a href=http://www.bioware.com/games/dragon_age/>Dragon Age</a> magic system
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<blockquote>Spell casting in D&D is very complicated. The management of a wizards spell book is a key skill a PNP player needs. They only have so many spells they can cast each day and if they pick the wrong spells they're useless.
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First they need to decide how to balance their spell book between protection spells, enhancement, healing, attacking, and task-preforming. Then each spicific spell has certain components needed. (eye of neut, gems, etc.) Then, in a tatical situation, the speed of casting a spell plays an important factor. This is a lot for a casual play to do, and if they get it wrong, their gameplay experance suffers.
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After all that they finaly cast their spell, only to find out their target made a "saving throw" and the spell didn't work anyway.(It's no wonder few people played NWN as a pure spell caster).
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On the development side, making sure each of the hundreds of spells does what the rules say is not easy.
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In Dragon Age the spell caster still has a wide range of choices for spells, but instead of managing a spell book, they'll be managing power. They can cast lower level spells more often, but still have to reserve some power for a big monster.
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The exact nature of spells in Dragon Age is still being balanced, so I cannot go into anything more spicific.</blockquote>
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I actually cried when I thought of stupid bastards who really wanted to play as a wizard but couldn't because it was so damn hard.
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[Volourn]

I disagree with him almost 100%. I love the D&D magic system, and I'm dissapointed in the fact BIO is planning a mana type magic system for DA. I hate mana systems. One of the few I actually liked to a certain degree was BL. Meh. That's a huge negative with me for DA that's for sure.


"Dragon Age the spell caster still has a wide range of choices for spells"

I just hope - at least - this is true. It'll ease the pain soemwhat. of course, if one is having problems playing a D&D wizard don't they think that having a wide choice of spells which may or may not work in situations be way too complicated for 'casual' players to learn?

R00fles!

 

[Avin]

GURPS system is good.

the best magic system general idea is mage: the ascension... unfortunately storyteller is crap. i've heard that WW plans to tone down mages in the new system "storytelling"...

 

[Visbhume]

Geeky note: the D&D magic system (fire-and-forget, exotic spell names, spells named after its creators) in closely modeled after the magic described in "Tales of the dying Earth", a fantasy novel by Jack Vance published in the 50's (before the Lord of the Rings, if I am not mistaken).

 

[Whipporowill]

Seems to be true, LOTR wasn't published until 1954, but as for what I remember Tolkien writing Silmarillion as early as 1938.

Me, I'm not a fan of D&D's spellbook system. Not having access to every spell you know is lame, lame and lame. Mana or fatigue system is my bag, thank you.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

D&D's magic system is okay. My biggest complaint with it is all the replacement spells in it. I hate the fact you have Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, blah blah blah. I'd much rather it have one cure spell that heals wounds based on the level of the caster. The same thing goes for the summon spells, stoneskin, and the like. I'd rather have FEWER spells that get better as your caster gets better than redundant spells.

That said, mana is overdone, but then again, the D&D limited number of spells per day thing isn't that great either.

 

[Whipporowill]

I've been tinkering with a magic system with two attributes - a mana pool and a channeling limit. All spells have a ground cost in mana and your channeling limit is as much mana you can spend in one go - hence an explanation for all of those useless wizards who can only do fireworks and cointricks (minimal chan limit). It makes every mage unique (not relying on what everyone knows to be the best spell for every level) and you can set up spells on line with what Saint mentioned.

 

[Jed]

(It's no wonder few people played NWN as a pure spell caster).

I think that has more to do with why few people play NWN as anything other than a pure melee character...

 

[Volourn]

"I think that has more to do with why few people play NWN as anything other than a pure melee character..."

Of course, both you and him are wrong. Dink.

 

[Transcendent One]

WTF it was great how they implemented D&D spellcasting into their games. Stupid "it's too hard" whiners. Always ruin everything.

I suppose mana isn't bad (most non D&D RPG's I've played seem to use it), but it's so easily exploitable. I hope they don't decide to implement mana restoring potions or garbage like that.

 

[PennyAnte]

In Dragon Age the spell caster still has a wide range of choices for spells, but instead of managing a spell book, they'll be managing power.

I interpret this to mean DA will have a magic system more like KOTOR's force points/powers than D&D's spell system. I bet the mechanics even will be virtually identical, right down to how you select the powers you use and the overall look and feel of the interface screen you use to do it. Of course, "force" will be called "cheese" I mean "chi" instead.

EDIT: I also think one reason people gravitate to melee characters in these types of games is because magic point pools always can run out in theory, leaving a player ineffective, while a fighter's ability to swing a weapon never runs out. This is why I prefer a "cooldown" mechanic to a point reservoir mechanic for all special abilities, whether melee or magical.

 

[HanoverF]

Ah the tyranny of choice rears its ugly head again... D&D spellcasting does suck implemented into a computer game, but not because it r hard, it's due to the allready mentioned memorization thing and crappy upgrades instead of new spells. Its fine for a pnp game where it might take 2 hours to venture part way into a dungeon and then head to an inn and sleep till next game night, but in a computer game it sucks more then Volourn in the bioware mens room.

 

[The Exar]

I hate mana systems!

But I don't. The devs don't too. First of all, mana is a powerful ballance tool. It turns to be the biggest limit when casting spells. So, many other limitations and factors(like spell components) can be striked out. It makes the game more simple(but never less interesting) and can dramaticaly change the gameplay - generaly make it faster.

It sounds crazy, but I think the best spell system is used in RTS - Warcraft. It's very well balanced. You have to consider MANA, spell LEVEL(power) and COOLDOWN before casting a spell.

 

[Volourn]

"First of all, mana is a powerful ballance tool."

Hahahaha. It is THE most unbalancing magic system in existence. Period.


"Ah the tyranny of choice rears its ugly head again"

You didn't read the post did you?



"but in a computer game it sucks more then Volourn in the bioware mens room."

R00fles! You blind or just plain stupid? A refernce to me being a fanboy in a thread where I was being critical of BIO's choices. Hahaha.

Hanover, I now refer you to Retardhands.

 

[Vault Dweller]

...in a computer game it sucks more then Volourn in the bioware mens room.

I don't care what you say, Volourn, but it's just too funny ('cause it's true )

"Ah the tyranny of choice rears its ugly head again"

You didn't read the post did you?

You've read the post but didn't get the point?

 

[Volourn]

"In Dragon Age the spell caster still has a wide range of choices for spells,"

Yeah. Tyranny of Choice. OMG


"I don't care what you say, Volourn, but it's just too funny"

Never said it wasn't. I do find it even more hilarious it is sued in a thead where I had/have an anti BIo stance though.


"'cause it's true"

And, you claim you have never called me a fanboy or even implied it. R00fles! Caught in a lie, huh?

 

[Vault Dweller]

"In Dragon Age the spell caster still has a wide range of choices for spells,"

Yeah. Tyranny of Choice. OMG

Not that part. The other one. The one that says:
"They only have so many spells they can cast each day and if they pick the wrong spells they're useless. (OMG! I have to pick something! Nobody told me I have to pick something! How do I know which one to pick?!")

First they need to decide how to balance their spell book between protection spells, enhancement, healing, attacking, and task-preforming (Oh, now I have to balance my spell book! Great! I don't even know how to balance my check book, and now this...)"

Edit: "In Dragon Age the spell caster still has a wide range of choices for spells"

Yeah, just like in Diablo. I have you agree that DnD spellcasting is a bit more complicated and strategic than that.

"I don't care what you say, Volourn, but it's just too funny"

Never said it wasn't. I do find it even more hilarious it is sued in a thead where I had/have an anti BIo stance though.

Yeah, you are such a rebel.

"'cause it's true"

And, you claim you have never called me a fanboy or even implied it. R00fles! Caught in a lie, huh?

No. I did realize that I've never called you a fanboy, said so, and now I have corrected my mistake

 

[Volourn]

"No. I did realize that I've never called you a fanboy,"

Liar.



I also repeat:

"In Dragon Age the spell caster still has a wide range of choices for spells,"

Yeah. Tyranny of Choice. OMG

 

[Ausir]

Seems to be true, LOTR wasn't published until 1954, but as for what I remember Tolkien writing Silmarillion as early as 1938..

Actually, he started to write the very first version of the mythology (The Book of Lost Tales) as early as in 1918.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"No. I did realize that I've never called you a fanboy,"

Liar.

Friendly exaggeration

I also repeat:

"In Dragon Age the spell caster still has a wide range of choices for spells,"

Yeah. Tyranny of Choice. OMG

Well, there are choices that matter, and choices that not. Technically every games is loaded with choices, you can go left or you can go right, you can wear this armor or you can wear that armor, you can cast a firebolt or a fireball, etc.

According to Darcy, the magic system won't have the "choices that matter" level of complexity, and most likely will be a Diablo-like system limited only by mana.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

TOEE had everything right as far as rules implementation goes. Both in combat and magic. I truly love that system and just wish Troika would get off their ass and tweak it out better, ironing out the bugs and such, and use it in another game. This time making their OWN DnD module. I prefer the DnD magic system. It has alot more strategy to it. Mana systems are for console RPGs and need to stay there. As Fez would say, they make baby jesus cry.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I for one dislike the D&D magic system. I think it's utterly crap that you have to memorize spells, and if you get the wrong ones, it renders you useless as a caster. I agree that it is too complicated to enjoy, and the only people who pride themselves in playing wizards are probably losers who think the unnecessary complications of ingredients, selective memorization and calculating saving throws repeatedly makes them more 'elite' than players who choose to consign themselves to less complicated classes like the Fighter or the Rogue.

The D&D magic system has absolutely no place in a CRPG. Going through a variety of menus just to cast a damn spell is pain enough as it is, and the hundreds of relatively redundant spells, most of which are mirrors of other basic spells makes the whole thing an excersize in frustration. Who really cares if I cast Magic Missile instead of Melf's Acid Arrow?

I wouldn't play a Wizard, not because it's too 'hard' as VD seems to think, but because it's fucking irritating. There is absolutely no fucking fun in memorizing your spells every day and selecting when to cast them, especially at the early levels. At some point you are just going to run out of spells and stand in the back while everybody else does the fighting.

Ah the tyranny of choice rears its ugly head again

What the fuck are you talking about? The game is going to feature a ton of spells regardless of the fact that it doesn't use a spell memorization system. Not many games use that system anyway. Why? Because it's crap. I rather like how some of you see fit to complain about the 'tyranny of choice' when Bioware decides to use a mana-pool instead of D&D's stupid memorization system. Funny how that never seems to come up in discussions of any other game. Get a hold of yourselves.

Since when did D&D memorization = choice? That's bullshit and you know it.

"They only have so many spells they can cast each day and if they pick the wrong spells they're useless. (OMG! I have to pick something! Nobody told me I have to pick something! How do I know which one to pick?!")

You must be really fucking stupid if you didn't understand the point Darcy was trying to make, Vault Dweller. She was saying that D&D forced you to become some sort of 'rules lawyer' just to play a Wizard effectively, and if you picked the wrong spells to memorize you would effectively limit yourself in combat/gameplay. If you came across a locked door and forgot to memorize a Knock spell you wouldn't be able to get past it until after you rested, again. Assuming you had no rogue and you were in a no-rest area, you'd have to leave to go back to town, memorize the fucking spell and come back again just to open the door. If you came across a group of monsters and didn't memorize your Fireball spell you'd be pretty useless, too.

It's unnecesarily complex and I fail to see how you, someone who doesn't even like D&D of all people can defend such a shitty game mechanic.

Yeah, just like in Diablo. I have you agree that DnD spellcasting is a bit more complicated and strategic than that.

Strategic? What's so fucking strategic about memorizing spells before you even know what to use the next day? It's one thing to be a Ranger and know when to use an ability like 'Called Shot' during combat, just like it takes a smart mage to know when to use a spell like Fireball against a group of monsters instead of a single enemy. But I'd like you to tell me what's exactly 'complicated and strategic' about memorizing a bunch of possibly-redundant spells to use the next day.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

"First of all, mana is a powerful ballance tool."

Hahahaha. It is THE most unbalancing magic system in existence. Period.

How is the concept of MANA USE unbalanced? When you think about it, it and D&D's memorization thing are basically the same, only instead of assigning point values to spells, you assign levels and you're stuck with the confines of those spell levels.

It's much easier to fine tune the balance of a mana system than it is to fine tune D&D's level system. In D&D, Remove Blindness is on the same spell level as Cure Serious Wounds. Which spell is more useful? With a mana system, you can equate a mana point value based on the usefulness of the spell itself to balance out the need for the spell casting.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I for one think that some of you (VD) are just trying to stir up sone controversy where none exists. Why? Because it's Bioware and some of you just like spouting crap like 'Tyranny of Choices' even when the term barely applies to the situation. Honestly what's so fucking great about memorization? It's a horrible game mechanic that introduces unnecessary. READ: UNNECESARY complexity to a game. 'Complex' != good. It's one thing for a game to have high tactical and strategic value but adding redundancies like additional menus, an entire plethora of WORTHLESS spells and screwing players for the choices they make isn't a 'good' thing, nor is it fun.

As Kerec said in IRC (And I paraphrase):
Honestly, who the fuck designed a system where you have to camp a day just to get off a single useless spell? If you were gonna design it as a timer for using a powerful spell (e.g. Armageddon) and forcing the player to wait a long time before recasting it, I could certainly understand that, however its inherantly flawed at the beggining and mid stage of game.

Yeah, just like in Diablo. I have you agree that DnD spellcasting is a bit more complicated and strategic than that.

And Prince of Qin, Nox, Kult, Sacred, Bloodlines, Arcanum, Gothic 2, Seal of Evil, Deus Ex, etc. Nice way to make the game look bad by comparing it to Diablo which by the way kicks the shit out of NWN.

D&D != CRPG material.

It just doesn't work well. It didn't work well on paper, either. I'd have been so much happier if D&D's magic system featured individual spell timers and global timers (based on rounds or turns).

 

[Volourn]

Ex is an idiot. D&D magic system is the best.


"Honestly what's so fucking great about memorization? It's a horrible game mechanic that introduces unnecessary. READ: UNNECESARY complexity to a game."

Youa re onc rack. Memorization is greta because it focuses on the fact that to be a wizard you have to be studious. Spells just aren't used on a whim; but studied, and practiced, and perfected.

LONG LIVE D&D MAGIC SYSEM! DOWN WITH THE MORONIC MANA SPAM!!!

"In D&D, Remove Blindness is on the same spell level as Cure Serious Wounds. Which spell is more useful?"

Theya re both equally useful. CSW is useful more foten; but in the situation where remove blindness comes in; it kicks the best. There's not too many spells that do what remove blindness does; but there's a TON of spells that do what CSW does.


"How is the concept of MANA USE unbalanced?"

It is for several reasons. For starters, most mana systems include auto regen of mana just by the passage of time limiting the need to even bother resting at all. You can spam the spells pretty much unlimited. It's retarded. Plain, and simple. KOTOR's mana system is one of the main reasons why the combat was so easy - because you can always spam 'Heal' over and over and your 'mana' will return rather qucikly. And, KOTOR sin't unique here. That's common practice amongst mana magic systems.

D&D is as close to a perfect magic system as can be because it stresses the studious nature of magic. You have to study your spells to use them instead of them being insta power grabs.


VD, I also repeat, again:

"In Dragon Age the spell caster still has a wide range of choices for spells,"

Yeah. Tyranny of Choice. OMG

That choice *does* matter. Unless you think it's better if you have just 5 spells. R00fles!