Review KotOR2 grooves IGN

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords

There's <A href="http://pc.ign.com/articles/586/586154p1.html">a review</A> of <A href="http://www.kotor2.com/">Knights of the Old Republic 2</a> over at <A href="http://pc.ign.com">IGN</a>. It got a big <b>8.7/10</b> score, if you care about that kind of thing. Anyway, on with the lightsaber stuff:
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<blockquote>Though the game starts out at an agonizingly slow pace, once you get past the first few hours, things start to pick up. I'm still ticked off that it takes so long to get your lightsaber. I had played the Xbox version already and it still took me a good 12 hours to get the lightsaber in the PC version. I respect that holding it back makes it more meaningful and dramatic once you do get it, but it's not like the developers bother to add anything dramatic around its acquisition. Once you manage to find the parts you need, a character on your ship just makes it for you. Talk about an anti-climax.</blockquote>
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I still don't get how holding it back makes it more meaningful when you get it. <A href="http://www.interplay.com/fallout2">Fallout 2</a> withheld guns from you for quite a while, and was anyone really impressed with getting a 10MM pistol in <i>The Den</i> as opposed to starting with one?
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.ve3d.com">VoodooExtreme</A>

 

[Mendoza]

I had played the Xbox version already and it still took me a good 12 hours to get the lightsaber in the PC version.

He was expecting it to take less time in the PC version despite the fact it's the same game? I don't see the point in getting the person who did the X-Box review to do the PC review if they're going to complain about repeating things they've already done.

 

[dagamer667]

The pistol doesn't stay useful for long, but it was a major step-up from a sharp stick you start with. I definitely appreciated it when I first got - even if I was selling them by dozens a few hours later.

 

[Reklar]

Well, honestly, the first time I was able to upgrade from the crappy pipe rifle I 'liberated' from Vic's house to the 10mm Pistol I was happy. After the first game though I don't think I ever used the pipe rifle again simply because it was an inferior weapon to my sharpened spear for virtually all combat situations. The Desert Eagle was a much better pistol, but not very easy to get until you had a longer range weapon like the Hunting Rifle.

Err, and to be on topic, I agree with Mendoza about having the same person doing both X-Box and PC reviews, especially looking at the general attitude the guy displays in the quoted snippet. As far as the lightsaber goes, the only Star Wars game I've played that made getting a lightsaber meaningful to me was Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight. It was certainly a kick to have something that didn't require ammo and if you learned how to use it properly it was an effective weapon. I guess if I'm ever going to play KotOR II though it'll probably be on my friend's X-Box since I don't have a computer that can run the game, and even if I did the combat system doesn't seem all that fun.

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)

 

[Vault Dweller]

KOTOR 2 is out in Toronto, if someone cares. I'm installing it now. Love the CD art.

 

[bryce777]

The pistol doesn't stay useful for long, but it was a major step-up from a sharp stick you start with. I definitely appreciated it when I first got - even if I was selling them by dozens a few hours later.

Actually the stick was more useful so long as you had some melee skill or throw skill...I went through the game solo using only spears one time.

 

[space captain]

if you know where to go, you can get the Power Armor in Fallout before you do anything else, before you even go to the first town - no fighting required... just do a little quest for some mutants

 

[Chris Avellone]

We wanted to avoid giving the lightsaber too soon so it felt like you earned it, but we probably erred on the side of giving it too late - many people felt it should have been given at the end of the second planet, similar to the first game, but we wanted to try and make the quest to retrieve it a little more personal and make it more role-playing oriented, but that didn't work as well as we'd hoped (the lightsaber crystal that resonates according to your personality was a nice touch, though, I didn't think it could be done - kudos to Tony and Kevin). Even if it's not the most effective weapon in the game, it's still the big carrot most people want and use, so I'm always in favor of trying to leave the biggest carrot as late as possible.

I think the only advantage to giving guns so late in the Den in Fallout 2 was it actually made you use the spear for once, something I doubt anyone did except enemies in Fallout 1 (and it helps reinforce your tribal status). Although the lightsaber comparison might be more applicable to when you get the plasma rifle or .232 pistol in Fallout 1 rather than a 10mm. Generally, you want to ramp up the damage and usefulness of weapons throughout the game when doing balancing as well as keep the player discovering cool things.

Still, others felt we should give the lightsaber at the start, but after playing Jedi Academy and feeling a little let down that I start with the badass weapon, we were worried it would hurt the game to get the big carrot right from the start (or too close to the start). Most players who play Star Wars games are playing it so they can swing their lightsabers around.

Anyway. Probably more info than you need to know, but more mystery around design decisions explained.

Chris

 

[Fez]

I have to agree that if you give the player the best weapon at the start, it won't feel as good. If you got power armour and a plasma rifle at the start of FO it would have taken away the fun of progressing through all the weapon and armour types.

In KOTOR it made the lightsaber a bit more special, like the PA, as you had to work to get it.

 

[NeverwinterKnight]

I had played the Xbox version already and it still took me a good 12 hours to get the lightsaber in the PC version.

He was expecting it to take less time in the PC version despite the fact it's the same game? I don't see the point in getting the person who did the X-Box review to do the PC review if they're going to complain about repeating things they've already done.

agreed. i dont think its a good idea for the same reviewer to review games on different platforms, especially when one comes out after the other. no matter how "unbiased" a person tries to be, its very difficult to "forget" youve played it before and review things objectively.

 

[errorcode]

my only wish was that there had been more to constructing your lightsaber. From reading various star wars books, lightsabers are personal things that require a jedi to create his own and bond with it. Just collecting the parts and giving them to Bao-dur was...well...anti-climatic.

Chris, was there any thought to do a more dramatic or extended lightsaber creation scene before going with the Bao-Dur route?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Even if it's not the most effective weapon in the game, it's still the big carrot most people want and use, so I'm always in favor of trying to leave the biggest carrot as late as possible.

Basically, I want a better carrot from KotOR. I want the kind of carrot that if anyone with a metal melee object is foolish enough to oppose me, they get diced up. I want the carrot that slices open doors and steam pipes. I just never thought KotOR's carrot was very carroty.

Making me wait and wait and wait to get said carrot doesn't make that carrot any more carroty.

I think the only advantage to giving guns so late in the Den in Fallout 2 was it actually made you use the spear for once, something I doubt anyone did except enemies in Fallout 1 (and it helps reinforce your tribal status).

Then again, they kept the vault suit. Why not keep the vault issue 10MM pistol as a sacred relic as well? Even if the Vault Dweller chucked it after finding a new gun, surely the Vault 13 refugees that left to follow him north would have taken some. Vault items were supposedly "holy", after all. You'd think one reason they would be holy would be in case the Chosen One would need them at some point.

Although the lightsaber comparison might be more applicable to when you get the plasma rifle or .232 pistol in Fallout 1 rather than a 10mm. Generally, you want to ramp up the damage and usefulness of weapons throughout the game when doing balancing as well as keep the player discovering cool things.

Well, the lightsaber you start with won't be as cool as the one you end with either. The .223 pistol is as cool as it's ever going to get. The plasma could only be upgraded once.

Still, others felt we should give the lightsaber at the start, but after playing Jedi Academy and feeling a little let down that I start with the badass weapon, we were worried it would hurt the game to get the big carrot right from the start (or too close to the start). Most players who play Star Wars games are playing it so they can swing their lightsabers around.

Might have been neat to start with it and have it taken away if that's the case. I agree you shouldn't have the best lightsaber ever at the start, but we're talking about something that can be continually upgraded.

Anyway. Probably more info than you need to know, but more mystery around design decisions explained.

Well, even if you don't think it matters to us here, it's a nice topic of discussion and we appreciate the insight/hindsight.

PS. About your registration comment.. We don't hate Obsidian here. It's just that BioWare Junior is so gosh darned funneh.

 

[bryce777]

We wanted to avoid giving the lightsaber too soon so it felt like you earned it, but we probably erred on the side of giving it too late - many people felt it should have been given at the end of the second planet, similar to the first game, but we wanted to try and make the quest to retrieve it a little more personal and make it more role-playing oriented, but that didn't work as well as we'd hoped (the lightsaber crystal that resonates according to your personality was a nice touch, though, I didn't think it could be done - kudos to Tony and Kevin). Even if it's not the most effective weapon in the game, it's still the big carrot most people want and use, so I'm always in favor of trying to leave the biggest carrot as late as possible.

I think the only advantage to giving guns so late in the Den in Fallout 2 was it actually made you use the spear for once, something I doubt anyone did except enemies in Fallout 1 (and it helps reinforce your tribal status). Although the lightsaber comparison might be more applicable to when you get the plasma rifle or .232 pistol in Fallout 1 rather than a 10mm. Generally, you want to ramp up the damage and usefulness of weapons throughout the game when doing balancing as well as keep the player discovering cool things.

Still, others felt we should give the lightsaber at the start, but after playing Jedi Academy and feeling a little let down that I start with the badass weapon, we were worried it would hurt the game to get the big carrot right from the start (or too close to the start). Most players who play Star Wars games are playing it so they can swing their lightsabers around.

Anyway. Probably more info than you need to know, but more mystery around design decisions explained.

Chris

I guess to my thinking, with a weapon like that it should all be in how much skill you have in wielding it. For example a jedi should not be magically immune to having his face blown off as soon as he puts on a robe.

It would be better if only once you have a lot of skill in the force a lightsaber is actually useful and if you dont have it you are better off fighting from afar. To my thinking anyhow.

 

[Pegultagol]

That reminds me of Arcanum where any lack of proficiency with a weapon always comes with a risk of either disabling parts of body or scarring your face but in the worst case permenantly crippled. But it is a Jedi with former training with the force in this case and I guess that scenario would only be possible if someone not trained enough gets hold of the lightsaber.

I would like to hear VD's impression and perhaps a review of the game. If it is any comparable to the original game, then I would want to give it a go as well. Right now, with numerous glitches in the AI and graphics being reported, I am not as enthused.

 

[NeverwinterKnight]

It would be better if only once you have a lot of skill in the force a lightsaber is actually useful and if you dont have it you are better off fighting from afar. To my thinking anyhow.

id mentioned that on the obsidian forum once. i dont think its part of the d20 rules but theyve deviated enough that i dont think it would matter, but my idea was that until/unless you learned how to actually wield a lightsaber, you could still use it but risked doing damage to yourself as easily as damaging your opponent.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I would like to hear VD's impression and perhaps a review of the game.

Sure. I'm planning to write a review, but if someone beats me to it, I'll post my impressions. Anyway, I'm playing it now. Just completed the first area - the mining station. So far, I like it a lot, but I haven't seen much yet. Skills are very useful. I'm playing Guardian, so I even restarted with a new character with higher Intelligence to have more skill points.

I have 2 complaints so far. First, combat is ridiculously easy. I can understand my triumph over mining robots, but killing waves of Sith Assassins without taking a scratch (literally) is a bit too much. Second, the "chosen" thing. I knew that PC is the last Jedi, as stupid as that sounds, but I hoped that nobody knows that. Turns out, everyone is after me, because I'm very special. That's the part that reminds too much of the first game. References to special travelling arrangements prior to the game events, special Force bond with another Jedi, etc.

 

[bryce777]

It would be better if only once you have a lot of skill in the force a lightsaber is actually useful and if you dont have it you are better off fighting from afar. To my thinking anyhow.

id mentioned that on the obsidian forum once. i dont think its part of the d20 rules but theyve deviated enough that i dont think it would matter, but my idea was that until/unless you learned how to actually wield a lightsaber, you could still use it but risked doing damage to yourself as easily as damaging your opponent.

Well I dont know so much about cutting your own leg off, but at close range unless a jedi is able to block the lasers blasts with the sword he should get blown to pieces.

At further range while you are both moving around I can see them missing a lot or hitting you in areas largely protected by armor, but if some joker with a light saber rushes boba fett, then unless he was amazing at blocking blaster shots he would be toast in a heartbeat, and I would think only the strongest jedi would be that good, let along good enough to take on a dozen bounty hunters with just a light saber.

 

[errorcode]

That reminds me of Arcanum where any lack of proficiency with a weapon always comes with a risk of either disabling parts of body or scarring your face but in the worst case permenantly crippled. But it is a Jedi with former training with the force in this case and I guess that scenario would only be possible if someone not trained enough gets hold of the lightsaber.

I would like to hear VD's impression and perhaps a review of the game. If it is any comparable to the original game, then I would want to give it a go as well. Right now, with numerous glitches in the AI and graphics being reported, I am not as enthused.

you could check out my review here. Hopefully it'll tide ya over until VD gets his review wrapped up and posted.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Although I haven't finished the game yet, I agree with your review, errorcode. So far, it's a much better game than KOTOR 1. Everything - NPCs, quests, writing, areas, art, skills - is greatly improved.

So, Pegultagol, if you liked the first one, I'm pretty sure you will like this one.

 

[Volourn]

I got the game now. Installing it now...I'm not surprised VD likes it more than the original - BIo ain't making it. <>

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I gotta disagree with VD. The mines area is overly long and pretty much nothing but combat.

 

[NeverwinterKnight]

id mentioned that on the obsidian forum once. i dont think its part of the d20 rules but theyve deviated enough that i dont think it would matter, but my idea was that until/unless you learned how to actually wield a lightsaber, you could still use it but risked doing damage to yourself as easily as damaging your opponent.

Well I dont know so much about cutting your own leg off, but at close range unless a jedi is able to block the lasers blasts with the sword he should get blown to pieces.

why not? i mean, i forget who said it in the movies (might have been obi-wan), but they said that someone who isnt trained can have just as much doing themselves damage as their opponent. i think it would be a neat little twist where anyone can actually weild the lightsaber (as opposed to only the jedi character) but that only those with proficiency can weild it without worry of injurying themselves.
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[Vault Dweller]

I gotta disagree with VD. The mines area is overly long and pretty much nothing but combat.

I don't believe I've said anything about this area being short and filled with role-playing opportunities.

It IS overly long, but I consider it a lesser sin then overly short areas. It IS mostly combat, but then again, it has the same gameplay as KOTOR, so I didn't expect anything else. However, unlike the orginal that had boring combat AND boring dialogues, KOTOR 2 offers better quests, interesting less black-n-white dialogues, and skill checks like awareness, treat injury (to understand medical stuff), and even Intelligence to figure something out. The NPCs are better written and better looking too.

 

[errorcode]

I got the game now. Installing it now...I'm not surprised VD likes it more than the original - BIo ain't making it. <>

i hope you're planning on doing a review when ya finish it, i'm actually pretty curious as to your view on it

 

[errorcode]

I gotta disagree with VD. The mines area is overly long and pretty much nothing but combat.

There are a couple pretty interesting ways around the combat. Nothing like Bloodlines foced combat areas. There are ways to disable the droids, make you invisible to them, make them fight each other, etc etc etc. All in all for an action/RPG like the KOTOR series KOTOR@ handled the balance pretty well and i never felt royally screwed by planning a total stealth or total diplomat type character