Editorial Swen Vincke: Larian Studios' "Project E" RPG Inspired by Ultima VII

[Crooked Bee]

Tags: Larian Studios; Project E; Swen Vincke; Ultima VII: Serpent Isle; Ultima VII: The Black Gate

In his latest blog post, Larian Studios' Swen Vincke talks about the inspiration behind their upcoming RPG tentatively called "Project E" -- and that inspiration is apparently Ultima VII:

I’ve been talking a lot about the Ultima VII games these last couple of weeks when pitching project E to the press. I happily abused them to explain where a lot of my inspiration was coming from, and what aspirations we have with our new game.

While talking about Ultima VII, it unfortunately dawned on me again that I’m really not that young anymore. Apparently half the journalists had never played any of the Ultima games, and several of them had never even heard about them.

I was a bit shocked by this, because to me that was like a fantasy book reviewer saying that he’d never heard about Tolkien. Of course, if you think about it, it does makes sense. Most of these guys were still trying to figure out if Optimus Prime really existed when it was first released, yet for some reason that hadn’t occurred to me.

That didn’t dissuade me from talking about it though. I consider Ultima VII: The black gate and Ultima VII: Serpent Isle to be among the best RPGs ever made, and in my mind there’s not been a single RPG since 1992 that surpassed them, including those now considered to be the industry benchmarks.

So why was I talking about Ultima VII so much?​

To learn why (hint: it involves immersion and that special Ultima VII vibe that Swen wants to capture and reproduce for Project E), be sure to read the blog post in full.

 

[SerratedBiz]

I really enjoy reading this guy's blog posts. It just feels like he's cutting the BS to a minimum and just speaking his mind, which is something I wish more all developers did. Looking forward to see what the mysterious game is all about.

 

[Jaesun]

Swen Vincke and Larian are complete BROS. I give them 100 BRO Fists. I really hope they can do this project.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Metro]

Hope they don't use the Gamebryo engine again. Also I hope they improve upon the combat from Ultima 7~

 

[Dragon]

He's right, Ultima VII is definitely among the best RPGs, but if he wants to recreate the feeling I got from it, he really needs to go top down / isometric with an all-in-one world. Best exploration ever.

 

[Azalin]

Swen's blog is always a good read

 

[JudasIscariot]

This needs to be added to the emoticons list! STAT!

 

[abnaxus]

In the same blog, Swen has stated Project D (Dragon Commander) is inspired by Cinemax games.

 

[Infinitron]

In the same blog, Swen has stated Project D (Dragon Commander) is inspired by Cinemax games.

I hope you mean "Cinemaware". http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Skinemax

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Cinemax games.

Project E - After Dark

 

[SuicideBunny]

I consider Ultima VII: The black gate and Ultima VII: Serpent Isle to be among the best RPGs ever made, and in my mind there’s not been a single RPG since 1992 that surpassed them, including those now considered to be the industry benchmarks.

yeah, the clusterfuck real-time combat, simplistic mechanics, jrpg stat system and complete disconnection of social interactions from the rpg mechanics are truly the hallmark of a good rpg. it even fails as an rpg adventure hybrid when you compare it to the vastly superior quest for glory.
at least he could have picked u7 which might not have been as pretty to look at as u7p2's barbie dolls, but had tb combat and the bigger world along with really interesting settings in the two spin-offs.

 

[Infinitron]

at least he could have picked u7 which might not have been as pretty to look at as u7p2's barbie dolls, but had tb combat and the bigger world along with really interesting settings in the two spin-offs.

It's been a while since you played, huh? U7 and U7p2 both had real-time combat. You're thinking about Ultima VI.

BTW, how did U7 have a "JRPG stat system"? I'm pretty sure it had the same system as previous Ultima games...or did those have JRPG stat system too?

 

[ghostdog]

The only thing that concerns me is that after they spent five years to make an entertaining but flawed game (Divinity 2), suddenly they have 3 projects on their table.

 

[Roguey]

An Ultima 7 loving LARPer? For shame.

He's right, Ultima VII is definitely among the best RPGs, but if he wants to recreate the feeling I got from it, he really needs to go top down / isometric with an all-in-one world. Best exploration ever.

He's mentioned from the beginning that Divinity is going back to being pseudo-isometric, the third person remains with Dragon Commander.

 

[hoverdog]

I sense EMOTIONAL ENGAGEMENTS

 

[SuicideBunny]

It's been a while since you played, huh? U7 and U7p2 both had real-time combat. You're thinking about Ultima VI.

typo, and a pretty obvious one, seeing how i'm talking about the two spin-offs.

BTW, how did U7 have a "JRPG stat system"? I'm pretty sure it had the same system as previous Ultima games...or did those have JRPG stat system too?

p. much.
i mean they are awesome sandboxes and pretty good adventures, but they are amongst the worst rpgs out there. even mass effect has stronger and better rpg mechanics than ultima.

 

[Aeschylus]

I really, really hope Larian succeeds and can become a model for mid-sized devs in the future to become self sufficient and stop being forced to produce banal junk for publishers.

 

[Excommunicator]

Firstly: on topic: I don't like when developers name-drop old games as it is usually only a superficial similarity and done to get the audience excited more than it is to actually emulate the older game mentioned. Still, I like the way this guy thinks (even though I haven't played any of his games), and would be very curious to see what he does about these Ultima 7-esque features.



The Ultima 7 Discussion

Ultima 7 is probably my favourite game (and my favourite RPG to play) but it is not a strong RPG in the grander scheme of things. It is more of an adventure game than real RPG as said above, however,

even mass effect has stronger and better rpg mechanics than ultima.

This is simply not true. The character progression mechanics are weaker in Ultima 7, but Mass Effect is a shooter with almost no RPG-related elements beyond character progression.

While Ultima 7 lacks the character progression of Mass Effect and other games (not that Mass Effect is in anyway strong in this aspect), it does have many strengths over a game like Mass Effect, strengths which are often overlooked

Here's a quick list

Party. Mass Effect forces you to take 2 companions at all times, while Ultima 7 will allow you to take anywhere from 0 to 7 companions, at your choice.

Inventory. Mass Effect allows you to choose the gun you use and little else. Ultima 7 has a full inventory for all 8 characters.

Trade/Merchants. Mass Effect has credits which allow you to buy...guns? (Anything else? I forget) While there is no shortage of money in Ultima 7, there are many shops and many things to buy; weapons, armour, vehicles, spells, food, and miscellaneous crap, as well as some interesting ways to make money.

Exploration. Mass Effect offers you missions to be approached in a varying order, but forces you into following small linear routes in mostly empty maps. Ultima 7 has a fully open world with traditional RPG things like traps, switches, teleporting etc., i.e. classical RPG dungeon type things.

World Interactivity. Mass Effect has no world interaction of any kind. Everyone knows of the interactivity of the Ultima 7 world. Interactivity that can be used to your advantage to affect the game in many ways (some listed below). I'm not doing a full list.

Non-scripted problem solving. Mass Effect offers only the ability to shoot things in the environment or sometimes talk to them. There is nothing else. While there is no alternative solution scripted at any point in U7 (AFAIK), the open world mechanics enable some creative solutions to be employed (potions, retaliation between NPCs, crate/object stacking, locked doors, collateral damage, serpent venom, NPC spell casting etc.).


Anyway that's about enough of that.



The comparison between the two is rather clear, although comparing Ultima 7 to many of the other classic RPGs out there will having it coming second place in many of the above options (and further points not discussed). Still, some of the above points give it strengths even over other stronger-overall RPGs, and on that basis it should not be under-appreciated. Contrary to popular belief, its biggest weakness is not its mechanics but its balance. If you were to slow combat down a LOT, made all characters hesitate before taking actions, and you made the enemies much more difficult to defeat, things would improve dramatically. The characters already have attributes for damage, accuracy, hit points, attack speed, magic points and movement speed, they are simply unnoticeable in the current combat system.

For the sake of some interesting discussion, we can also look at some things that they share that make them weak RPGs...

Neither game has dialogue skills I remembered wrong, ME1 has "charm" and intimidate". Thanks Infinitron.
(Ultima 7 on the other hand has mostly dialogue-based quests, but no skills involved and no alternative solutions)
Neither game has any real character creation process
Neither game allows you to create a blank slate, and both games thrust the PC's identity upon them
Neither game has any substantial levelup/advancement system (Mass Effect is stronger, Ultima 7 is almost non-existent)
Neither game has any persistence to starting stats or things that give any of the characters inherent strengths or that cannot be trained out over time.
Neither game has much control over the companions (Mass Effect has essentially 0 control, but Ultima 7 combat makes it pointless anyway)
Neither game offers explicit alternative solutions to missions or quests (Ultima 7 is still stronger that you only need to kill the main characters, and the rest can be avoided in clever ways if desired, as above)
Neither game appreciates a non-violent character or approach. Not many RPGs do, though.
Neither game has much to offer for combat. Twitch shooting for mass effect and auto-resolve for Ultima 7. No opportunity for tactics, different approaches, or thought-out strategies. This is the reason why turn based mechanics are preferred by so many on the Codex in an RPG.

Feel free to add more. I'm sure Jaesun and Sceptic know enough about both games to make a few points on it.

 

[Infinitron]

Actually, ME1 had Charm/Intimidate skills.

 

[SuicideBunny]

Party. Mass Effect forces you to take 2 companions at all times, while Ultima 7 will allow you to take anywhere from 0 to 7 companions, at your choice.

Inventory. Mass Effect allows you to choose the gun you use and little else. Ultima 7 has a full inventory for all 8 characters.

Trade/Merchants. Mass Effect has credits which allow you to buy...guns? (Anything else? I forget) While there is no shortage of money in Ultima 7, there are many shops and many things to buy; weapons, armour, vehicles, spells, food, and miscellaneous crap, as well as some interesting ways to make money.

Exploration. Mass Effect offers you missions to be approached in a varying order, but forces you into following small linear routes in mostly empty maps. Ultima 7 has a fully open world with traditional RPG things like traps, switches, teleporting etc., i.e. classical RPG dungeon type things.

World Interactivity. Mass Effect has no world interaction of any kind. Everyone knows of the interactivity of the Ultima 7 world. Interactivity that can be used to your advantage to affect the game in many ways (some listed below). I'm not doing a full list.

Non-scripted problem solving. Mass Effect offers only the ability to shoot things in the environment or sometimes talk to them. There is nothing else. While there is no alternative solution scripted at any point in U7 (AFAIK), the open world mechanics enable some creative solutions to be employed (potions, retaliation between NPCs, crate/object stacking, locked doors, collateral damage, serpent venom, NPC spell casting etc.).

that's cool and mostly true, but none of those are rpg mechanics, and as i already said, it was a rather excellent sandbox and a good adventure but rpg mechanics are the heart and core of everything remotely rpg. you cannot have a good rpg while neglecting them, and at least for me, the very best rpg evar would have to implement them perfectly, meaning they apply to everyone and everything in the world, which means, amongst other things, that they flow into every subsystem/all forms of interaction, not just combat. both mass effect and ultima fail badly in that regard, but ultima does more so than mass effect since me at least has barebones social skills, while in ultima the mechanics do not affect anything outside of combat. when items are hidden, they are hidden below stacks of other items or behind some wall that makes the item near impossible to notice. there is zero influence of your character build (well, technically there isn't really much of a character build anyways) over that system, or any other.
the non-scripted problem solving would be nice for an rpg if your stats had anything to do with it, rather than it all depending on you dragging items around to abuse the engine to make stairs, or abuse the lame ai by placing items it cannot even pick up to block doors that are supposed to close on scheduled times and whatnot.
it's a cool sandbox feature, rpg not so much.

Neither game has dialogue skills I remembered wrong, ME1 has "charm" and intimidate". Thanks Infinitron.
(Ultima 7 on the other hand has mostly dialogue-based quests, but no skills involved and no alternative solutions)

me has dialogue skills, point for me.
me has skills to hack computers/unlock stuff, which is rpg-like. in ultima unlocking consists of finding the key via adventure-like pixelhunts and moving items around (or sandbox-style powder kegs, sometimes, again, no stats influencing it in any way), another point for me.

Neither game has any real character creation process

well, me has classes and upon replay bonus skills, plus the classes do affect gameplay and squad choice for hacking/decrypting. so point for me.

Neither game allows you to create a blank slate, and both games thrust the PC's identity upon them

yeah, but ultima is better in that regard due to being less constricted in your actions and thus freer to play the dickwad you want to play, including casting armageddon. point for ultima.

Neither game has any substantial levelup/advancement system (Mass Effect is stronger, Ultima 7 is almost non-existent)

point for me.

Neither game has any persistence to starting stats or things that give any of the characters inherent strengths or that cannot be trained out over time.

you get to pick up a bonus skill in me on replay, which like class might affect squad choice, the classes play very differently and affect squad choice due to hacking/decrypting, plus you cannot train all your skills to max. but that's already covered above.

Neither game has much control over the companions (Mass Effect has essentially 0 control, but Ultima 7 combat makes it pointless anyway)

parties aren't important in rpgs anyway, and are just a misguided attempt to make single player computer games seem superficially more like good old pnp with multiple people, which just results in shit like stuff made by bioware in the end.

Neither game offers explicit alternative solutions to missions or quests (Ultima 7 is still stronger that you only need to kill the main characters, and the rest can be avoided in clever ways if desired, as above)

weak point for ultima.

so that's what? 4 to 2 in favor of me? me might be the (much much much) shittier game, but it is the stronger rpg, simply becasue character stats allow you to pick new responses, unlock shit, and allow/prevent some bonus quests (the max renegade/paragon ones).

 

[Infinitron]

parties aren't important in rpgs anyway

 

[SuicideBunny]

case in point: choose your own adventure books, two man pnp sessions, quest for glory.

 

[SerratedBiz]

It is arguable whether CYOA and QFG are more adventure games than RPGs. Had either of them more sophisticated combat and more challenging encounters, the main guy would be mincemeat (let's not even go into how goblins form a nice, orderly line to fight you when you enter their HQ).

 

[Jaesun]

That is pretty much correct Excommunicator. Some things I would add are:

Neither game has any substantial levelup/advancement system (Mass Effect is stronger, Ultima 7 is almost non-existent)

What exactly do you mean by "levelup/advancement system". In U7 training STR, INT, DEX and Combat is VERY noticeable as you level them up. It really does give you, the player a sense of accomplishment. As well as finding and learning all the spells in the game, which (for the most part) are needed to get past many parts of the game. For example, start a new game of Ultima VII: The Black Gate and run straight to Dungeon Destard and play with the monsters there...

Also the "stealing" mechanic (if a party NPC or a NPC is within range and can view you stealing stuff, guards will attack, and/or party members will be pissed off and may leave you). Yes it is horribly implemented/easy to exploit but it deserves some mention. In ME you waltz around everywhere stealing peoples shit and no one cares.