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People News David Gaider Complains about "Increasingly Toxic" Fan Feedback

Crooked Bee

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Tags: BioWare; David Gaider

In response to the question "Are you guys aware of how many people avoid the Bioware Social Network like the plague?", Bioware's David Gaider has published a blog post that could as well have been entitled "Lalala, don't hear you!", in which he laments the "toxic" atmosphere and overall tone at the company's official forums, stating that he prefers to "largely avoid them these days" and not listen to the kind of feedback they provide. Shocking, isn't it?

They are certainly a group of passionate folks, and while I wouldn’t say they were all “utterly gross” as you put it I do agree that the overall tone of the forums has become increasingly toxic. I tend to largely avoid them these days, myself. Why? Because spending too much time there starts to make me feel negative— not just about the games we make, but about myself and life in general. That’s not a good feeling to have. I’m sure there are folks there who would bristle at that comment, suggesting that all negative feedback is justifiable and that ignoring it is the equivalent of us sticking our heads in the sand. How will we ever improve unless we listen to their scolding and take our lumps like good little developers? That is, of course, ignoring the idea that we haven’t already digested a mountain of feedback— both positive and negative— and there’s really only so much of it you can take. Eventually you make decisions (informed by that feedback, though only in part— it can only ever be in part) and move on.

[...] I imagine that can happen to any online community. Eventually the polite, reasonable folks stop feeling like it’s a group of people they want to hang around. So they leave, and those who remain start to see only those who agree with them— and, because that’s all they see, they think that’s all there is. Everyone feels as they do, according to them. Once the tipping point is passed, you’re left with the extremes… those who hate, and those who dislike the haters enough to endure the toxic atmosphere to try and combat them. Each clash between those groups drives more of the others away.

Why that is, I have no doubt there are many theories. And no shortage of people who would like to point them out, and make sure that under no circumstances do we get the impression that theirs is not the proper point of view.

There’s no need to vilify them, however. There are people like that all over the Internet— they are right about something. So right that it justifies behavior which would never be acceptable in real life conversation. On the Internet, that’s supposed to just be background noise. We should hear how right they are and listen to their point, not react to how they’re flinging it in your face. We can point fingers at gamers, but there are people who do this for all sorts of reasons. Someone might have a social justice cause, for instance, and honestly believe the thing they’re right about makes them better than someone arguing about a game mechanic, but they’re no different. They could have an excellent point, same as the gamer, but that point will still be equally lost and their behavior still be just as unacceptable and toxic.​

Sounds like a cop-out to me. The sort of cop-out that he could also use to justify leaving the Codex forums a few years back. "It's not us and the kind of games we make, it's the fans!!" Of course, David. Keep fighting the good fight.

Thanks Yaar Podshipnik!
 

Roguey

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Obligatory.
tumblr_m90l6j8k8m1rqwupw.gif

But seriously the tone at BSN is awful. An open sewer below a glory hole sex shop.

Oh and as for his justification for leaving the Codex, I've been told he left because of a thread he wasn't even posting in where a bunch of posters were personally attacking him by calling him a fat bald retard. That's a justifiable reason for leaving. It's not even "criticism."
 

Grunker

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No wonder our industry is in proverbial shambles quality-wise. All the supposed "top guys" are in complete denial.
 

Angthoron

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How was it that they were justifying creation of BSN? Oh right, positive fan feedback forum, polite conversations etc. How ironic.
 

Brother None

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I dunno about cop-out. It seems pretty honest to me. BSN is the absolute pits (true) and he doesn't like listening to criticism because it makes him feel bad (honest). True and honest. BioWare is under no obligation to pay attention to its rabid fans, and are way too insular and self-congratulatory to give criticism their due anyway, so it's not like there'd be much of a point, and it's not like anyone would really pretend BioWare is a community-focused game company at this point. Those days are well behind us.

I do like how he tiptoes around the fact that maybe, just *maybe* the community has become so toxic because this crowd is the kind of people their games appeal to? What ya think about that, D-man? If you want intelligent, thoughtful, deep discussions, make intelligent, thoughtful, deep games, rather than romantic schlock and wish fulfillment fantasies.

I still think they should do a Mass Effect spinoff where Tali and Shepard marry and are happy and it's basically a sim of my happy family life with my sweet Tali. It'd sell like crazy.
 

Lancehead

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When you make games to explicitly pander to the fanboys, what else did you expect?
 

almondblight

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Sounds like a cop-out to me. The sort of cop-out that he could also use to justify leaving the Codex forums a few years back. "It's not us and the kind of games we make, it's the fans!!" Of course, David. Keep fighting the good fight.

I remember him getting pissed when VD said that, despite Bioware's press release, you weren't really going to be able to "enslave nations with necromancy" in DA:O.
 

Roguey

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I do like how he tiptoes around the fact that maybe, just *maybe* the community has become so toxic because this crowd is the kind of people their games appeal to? What ya think about that, D-man? If you want intelligent, thoughtful, deep discussions, make intelligent, thoughtful, deep games, rather than romantic schlock and wish fulfillment fantasies.
Actually the problem is that their games don't appeal to the kind of people they're trying to sell them to, hence the backlash. They wanted the Call of Duty audience, they got it. Enjoy all the angry homophobic 12 year olds.
 

Crooked Bee

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I dunno about cop-out. It seems pretty honest to me. BSN is the absolute pits (true) and he doesn't like listening to criticism because it makes him feel bad (honest). True and honest. BioWare is under no obligation to pay attention to its rabid fans, and are way too insular and self-congratulatory to give criticism their due anyway, so it's not like there'd be much of a point, and it's not like anyone would really pretend BioWare is a community-focused game company at this point. Those days are well behind us.

A cop out doesn't have to be untrue or dishonest. No matter how awful BSN is, Gaider's post is still first and foremost an excuse to put the blame and the responsibility on someone else, and to avoid blaming the kind of games Bioware make, which is the real source of the problem here.
 

Infinitron

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he wasn't even posting in where a bunch of posters were personally attacking him by calling him a fat bald retard. That's a justifiable reason for leaving. It's not even "criticism."

Will you also leave if we call you a retard? :troll:
 

grotsnik

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Damn, if only everyone could be as good-natured, reasonable and polite online as David is.

David Gaider said:
Hmm. What IF we changed more about a future Dragon Age than you might like? Quel horreur!
I imagine it would look something like this:
Stage 1: Denial
Posts of "no, it can't be true!" and "maybe they didn't mean what we think it means!"
Stage 2: Anger
As the truth sinks in, posts of "Bioware, you have betrayed all that is good and righteous!" and furious predictions of financial collapse and boycotts, etc. etc.
Stage 3: Bargaining
Hopeful posts of "Well, if we don't get X will we still get Y?" and "Well, since there's still Z maybe X won't seem that bad" or even "Will we be able to change X ourselves?"
Stage 4: Depression
"Bioware is dead", "RPG's are dead", etc. ad nauseum as that glorious, scintillating might-have-been is now really gone.
and finally Stage 5: Acceptance
You see whatever game it is for what it actually is and enjoy it on its own terms.
or, alternatively Stage 5: Acceptance
You realize it's not the game for you, but might be for other people. You move on.
or, if you really must, you go back to Stage 1: Denial
You refuse to accept the presence of X in your beloved game, or any game for that matter, and begin a bitter campaign to convince everyone else that it is the travesty you think it is. If you play the game, you are determined to hate it-- and voila! You do! Possibly you hang out on RPG Codex.

The BSN forums may be a hole, but I really don't think that man has any right at all to complain about 'toxic' behaviour online; he's exceptionally fond of just trilling sarcastically at his detractors rather than engaging critically with what they're saying. (As the hilariously strawmannish likes of "How will we ever improve unless we listen to their scolding and take our lumps like good little developers?" is testament to, conveniently enough.)
 

Black

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I still think they should do a Mass Effect spinoff where Tali and Shepard marry and are happy and it's basically a sim of my happy family life with my sweet Tali. It'd sell like crazy.
I thought more of you:rpgcodex:
 

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Damn, if only everyone could be as good-natured, reasonable and polite online as David is.

David Gaider said:
Hmm. What IF we changed more about a future Dragon Age than you might like? Quel horreur!

The BSN forums may be a hole, but I really don't think that man has any right at all to complain about 'toxic' behaviour online; he's exceptionally fond of just trilling sarcastically at his detractors rather than engaging critically with what they're saying. (As the hilariously strawmannish likes of "How will we ever improve unless we listen to their scolding and take our lumps like good little developers?" is testament to, conveniently enough.)

Beside, he misspelled "Quelle".
 

LeStryfe79

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Bioware should have gotten a deal to make Twilight Saga RPGs. They would have been very good at that I think. Instead, they decided to make a Fantasy RPG which was a cross between Game of Thrones and Twilight and wonder why their target audience wasn't 10 million strong. Their other games include a pedestrian WoW knock off and a disappointing Sci-Fi with Peter Molyneux-like unfulfilled promises. At this point, it goes beyond EA blame. They just weren't very good at their jobs . Gaider and the others need to hang this shit up if they want to avoid further embarrassment.
 

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