Review Vampire: The Masquerade retrospective article at Hardcore Gaming 101

[Zed]

Tags: Vampire the Masquerade; Vampire the Masquerade - Redemption; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines

Hardcore gamers at retro gaming website Hardcore Gaming 101 recently published an article on Vampire: The Masquerade and the two CRPG titles Redemption, and Bloodlines. Their two-page article starts with a rundown of the setting and then a retrospective look at Redemption, with page two being dedicated to Bloodlines.

Here's a snip from the Bloodlines retro-review:

Lore-wise, Troika succeeded in mixing a general framework for neophytes with obscure details about the World of Darkness. By the end of the game, new players will despise Ventrues, fear werewolves and be disgusted by Kindred politics. Seasoned pen and paper players might be surprised to encounter lesser known vampiric bloodlines and other things from forgotten sourcebooks. With this level of detail and the depth of the story, it's a fantastic achievement.

The biggest problem of Bloodlines is that the more you progress, the less the gameplay becomes bearable. Mission zones slowly turn into hack and slash dungeons, giving you no other alternatives than fighting your way through dozens of enemies in extremely small corridors and bland environments (sewers, shady hotels, underground bases). Even worse, the final mission compels you to choose a faction to complete the game and kill one of the main antagonists of the game. The two finals dungeons are a pain in the ass to go through, both ending with a tough-as-nails unskippable boss fight. If your character don't have some good stats in combat skills, the whole thing can turn pretty sour fast.​

Thanks to Darth Slaughter for posting about it on the forums.

 

[Excidium]

Slow news day

 

[Haba]

But did you read this before posting it?

 

[Zed]

Slow news day

This is my way of procrastinating important IRL stuff.

 

[Irenaeus]

new players will despise Ventrues, fear werewolves and be disgusted by Kindred politics.

Couldn't disagree more.

This then new player, who had never heard of Vampire:The Masquerede, left the game in 2004 thinking that Ventrues were monocled, werewolves were retarded beasts easily tricked and very interested in Kindred politics.

 

[Excidium]

I just wanted to beat the fuck out of everyone with 5 strength brawl and potence.

 

[thesheeep]

He's right about playing with non-combat characters, though.
The last two stages will be very painful, far beyond the frustration threshold of most gamers (and I mean real gamers, not the casual crowd).

 

[Excidium]

"non-combat characters"

Considering how much VTMB showers you with XP, that sounds like a strong case of MCA-Arcanum Syndrome

 

[Azrael the cat]

new players will despise Ventrues, fear werewolves and be disgusted by Kindred politics.

Couldn't disagree more.

This then new player, who had never heard of Vampire:The Masquerede, left the game in 2004 thinking that Ventrues were monocled, werewolves were retarded beasts easily tricked and very interested in Kindred politics.

I never played or read White Wolf material at that time, and I came out of it thinking that Ventrues were devious politicians (which may or may not be monocled, depending on the individual), werewolves could wtfpwn pretty much any vampire and the only sane reaction was to run on sight (despite my killing the werewolf without spoilers - I didn't really expect Troika to give super-computer-esque AI in a game that ran on normal PCs), and that Kindred politics was vicious and self-defeating (but also a key part of the game - you can agree that Machiavelli would be a dick to worth with, while viewing it as a fun character to play in a game).

 

[Azrael the cat]

"non-combat characters"

Considering how much VTMB showers you with XP, that sounds like a strong case of MCA-Arcanum Syndrome

I never made this mistake (having played plenty of crpgs before, I already understood that when a game tells you that combat is inevitable in its setting, it means that there's going to be unskippable combat dungeons.). But I can see how it's possible to gimp a character, even with plenty of XP - most notably if you pump all the social skills instead of treating them as mutually exclusive paths. If you pumped charisma, speech, seduction, beauty and put some into haggle, that's going to set you a hell of a long way back. Then add computers and lockpicking, and I can see how someone who thought you might be able to play it like Torment and max everything non-combat in order to get as much content as possible, wouldn't have enough left for combat skills.

It doesn't help that the game looks like its playable that way (or that such a build might even be optimal) until late Hollywood, and then changes tack fast. Plus it puts a large chunk of its xp in 'special reward' conditions that many players would miss (take out the massive bonus xp you get for things like the best Tourette outcome, doing all the Giovanni dialogue quests then gunning the place up to lure out and kill the 2 senior Giovanni vampires, killing the werewolf etc, and the xp gets a lot less absurd).

I think they were on the right track by giving the player freedom with their build, but telling them that combat will be inevitable, but it wouldn't have hurt to repeat that to players ingame a few more times to ensure that anyone paying attention gets the point.

 

[Excidium]

If people are dumb enough to do that they deserve to be punished.

 

[thesheeep]

If people are dumb enough to do that they deserve to be punished.

You know, try posting something understanding, or friendly, or funny! People will be baffled! That would be some nice trolling!
But your mantra of "everything and everyone sucks" gets annoying fast.

Dumb enough to do what?
To create a new character, play for 12+ (we're talking about new players here) hours with a non-combat build, which the game definitely allows and even promotes with the large number of social/hacking/sneaking quests, and then being stuck at the end?
Sure, there are quite a few encounters you cannot avoid, and those are challenging for non-combat characters, but all doable. The end is not. Not if you are not an extremely capable (or patient) player.
Of course, when you reach that point, somehow avoid the rage-uninstall and restart, and then do the same mistake again, then you are dumb enough and deserve to be punished.

The biggest design flaw here is, just as Azrael said, that you don't know you're making a grave mistake until it is too late. That is fine for (and wanted in) a roguelike, Diablo (and good clones) or a game like Dark Souls. But in a game like VtMB, it is just a design flaw. A game so focused on story (and presenting it so well!) should not stop you directly before the end with a "you suck, please die".

Imagine the shitstorm that would arise when AoD would be released, you can play non-combat characters just fine, but then the final battle, which cannot be avoided, is pretty much impossible with that kind of build. Wtf?

And I definitely wouldn't say VtMB showers you with XP. Not even when doing all quests, I had the feeling I was overpowered or too "high level". Maybe in the path I focused on, but not in general.

 

[Don Peste]

When I played it, for some strange reason, Serena had a 99% chance to suck anybody's blood and kill him. So I used her all the time to lure enemies and then suck them dry. Was that a bug or something? I loved Serena.

Antitribu -Title given to any Camarilla affiliated clan member who joins the Sabbat.

Is that right?

 

[Excidium]

The biggest design flaw here is, just as Azrael said, that you don't know you're making a grave mistake until it is too late. That is fine for (and wanted in) a roguelike, Diablo (and good clones) or a game like Dark Souls. But in a game like VtMB, it is just a design flaw.

It's an Action RPG

A game so focused on story (and presenting it so well!) should not stop you directly before the end with a "you suck, please die".

Yes it should, it's a game where you go to all sorts of dangerous places by yourself, people expecting to win by way of rat diplomacy should indeed be taught a good lesson.

And I definitely wouldn't say VtMB showers you with XP. Not even when doing all quests, I had the feeling I was overpowered or too "high level". Maybe in the path I focused on, but not in general.

Considering in the span of a few nights you master vampiric disciplines that potentially take years without any sort of mentoring, reach the apex of human capability in many physical and mental abilities, kill all sorts of mortals and supernatural creatures including a werewolf and a wereshark...I'd say you do get to be p. overpowered.

 

[Night Goat]

Antitribu -Title given to any Camarilla affiliated clan member who joins the Sabbat.

Is that right?

Not exactly. They can be members of the Camarilla-founding clans who join the Sabbat, but can also include Assamites, Ravnos and Salubri who join the Sabbat, or Lasombra who do not join the Sabbat.

 

[Azalin]

I remember reading an article in the white wolf wiki that stated some of the characters invented for Redemption (e.g. Kristof) turn up in later, pre-reboot VTM novels. Anyone know anything about that?

Kristoff appears as a minor character in the clan novel series,I think as a member of Theo Bells' crew.

Ecaterina doesn't appear in the novels but she is in New York by Night supplement and I think she is in the Ventrue Chronicle adventures too

 

[Ninja Destroyer]

Fortunately, current players can use the amazing work of WASP 5, a loyal fan who has been patching the game for years

It's Wesp5 ffs.

That said I never finished the first part of the game. No matter how much I tried, the interest wasn't there. The stupid companions didn't helped.
Bloodlines, on the other hand, due to diffrences between clans is a good game for a replay. First Gangrel, then Malkavian and the last one, Nosferatu. Diffrent approaches, changes in the dialogues, etc. But the endgame is shallow - a couple of killrooms with easy puzzles, not hard but really tedious.

 

[Night Goat]

I started playing Bloodlines recently, but the end of the first chapter really turned me off: being unavoidably captured, then rescued at the last moment by the DM Storyteller's Favorite NPC Who Is More Awesome Than You. It's like they read all the advice on how to be a good DM/GM/Storyteller/whatever, then laughed and decided to deliberately do the opposite.

 

[Excidium]

Don't worry because through the course of the game you get to be more awesome than him, by the end you feel there's nothing in the world (of darkness) that you can't take head on. Exactly the kind of atmosphere one would want to convey.

 

[Lancehead]

A game so focused on story (and presenting it so well!) should not stop you directly before the end with a "you suck, please die".

Actually, it should stop you precisely because it's so focused on story. According to the story, it doesn't make sense if you're able to talk and hack your way through everything.

 

[Paul_cz]

I really need to get around that Malkavian playthrough one of these days.

 

[godsend1989]

I played it twice and got stuck at the tentacle boss fight, the second time i planed the fight ahead cautiously and bam got my ass wooped, i used cheats to see the end game, i was so addicted that i played it with 5 min loading screen on my shit pc, this reminds me of Gothic 3, good times.

 

[Jaesun]

Considering in the span of a few nights you master vampiric disciplines that potentially take years without any sort of mentoring, reach the apex of human capability in many physical and mental abilities, kill all sorts of mortals and supernatural creatures including a werewolf and a wereshark...I'd say you do get to be p. overpowered.

That is (almost) every single cRPG ever made though....

 

[thesheeep]

Actually, it should stop you precisely because it's so focused on story. According to the story, it doesn't make sense if you're able to talk and hack your way through everything.

It might make some sense story/setting wise.
But that would mean the game would have been willingly designed to become impossible for some builds, which would just be bullshit.
"Hey, yeah, you can be this character if you want, but you won't be able to finish the game. Have fun!" Mhkay....
I'm pretty sure that was not the design goal.And even if it was, it should have been communicated.

I'm not saying the fight should have been easier for non-combat builds. But there should have been alternatives, like some people you could talk into helping you, or something else social-related. But it is clear that they simply never tested this or just didn't care/ didn't have the time to care.

Considering in the span of a few nights you master vampiric disciplines that potentially take years without any sort of mentoring, reach the apex of human capability in many physical and mental abilities, kill all sorts of mortals and supernatural creatures including a werewolf and a wereshark...I'd say you do get to be p. overpowered.

Again, that makes you overpowered in the context of the setting. And makes pretty much every PC in every video game ever overpowered. Nice find. That is the hold point of most stories. You are the hero. Of course you are stronger than other characters.

But anyway, it doesn't matter, as it does not make you overpowered gameplay wise.
Which is what we are talking about here, I assumed.

 

[Mangoose]

Dumbfuck detected

The biggest design flaw here is, just as Azrael said, that you don't know you're making a grave mistake until it is too late. That is fine for (and wanted in) a roguelike, Diablo (and good clones) or a game like Dark Souls. But in a game like VtMB, it is just a design flaw.

It's an Action RPG

LOL

A game so focused on story (and presenting it so well!) should not stop you directly before the end with a "you suck, please die".

Yes it should, it's a game where you go to all sorts of dangerous places by yourself, people expecting to win by way of rat diplomacy should indeed be taught a good lesson.

To create a new character, play for 12+ (we're talking about new players here) hours with a non-combat build, which the game definitely allows and even promotes with the large number of social/hacking/sneaking quests, and then being stuck at the end?
Sure, there are quite a few encounters you cannot avoid, and those are challenging for non-combat characters, but all doable. The end is not. Not if you are not an extremely capable (or patient) player.

And I definitely wouldn't say VtMB showers you with XP. Not even when doing all quests, I had the feeling I was overpowered or too "high level". Maybe in the path I focused on, but not in general.

Considering in the span of a few nights you master vampiric disciplines that potentially take years without any sort of mentoring, reach the apex of human capability in many physical and mental abilities, kill all sorts of mortals and supernatural creatures including a werewolf and a wereshark...I'd say you do get to be p. overpowered.

Which is the same thing as every almost every other RPG.

including a werewolf

Using trickery.