Hello dear members of the Codex!
I found these forums a few days ago and now I decided to sign up.
I've been on the Elder Scrolls forums for quite some time [and once even having been banned for surpassing the auto censor... bleh. I hated Archaeopterix, and I think she hated me, too, that's why I got banned...] and played with the thought of creting a thread there which compares Oblivion to Dark Messiah of Might and Magic... in Roleplaying terms!
But, after I read quite a lot here on the Codex, I see that I could get a warning, or at least a dislike of the mods there [again...], when I say that Oblivion sucks in RP compared to a game which is not even an RPG.
Oh well, whatever. Let's just start with the thread and tell me what you think about it.
I am going to make a comparison of Role Playing options between Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, an Fantasy ACTION game and Oblivion, an RPG. Sounds like an unfair match for sure, one of them is action, the other one RPG... and it is unfair indeed, but we shall see for which of these two games...
So, basically, let's start with the basics. In Oblivion you can choose your own character. You can define race, gender and class. In Dark Messiah, you get a premade guy called Sareth. But still, you never see Sareth's face and thus you can "create" his looks in your mind. Imagine how your character looks. And you can develop him throughout the game, during the gameplay. Sure, it might be linear, but there are also "sidequests" [optional missions] during the game. And thus you can get a different number of experience points depending on how you play everytime you play the game. And you can develop your character. And this is done a LOT better than in Oblivion.
In Oblivion you end up being a master in ALL skills, no matter what you chose in the beginning. Every character class can max out all of her skills. All of them. There is no ROLE playing in that anymore, it's just powergaming. In Dark Messiah the experience you can get is limited. And thus are your choices in character development. Yes, you CAN choose to be assassin, warrior and mage at the same time. But it will be less effective than a specialization, which is realistic and adds to roleplay. Play a wizard. Play a warrior. Play an assassin. Play a jack-of-all-trades who is not as specialized but average to relatively good in everything. Isn't that more role-playing than being able to do everything? You have to live with the limitations of the game and of your character, and not max out everything till you are uber l33t.
Now let's come to immersion of the world, which is also quite important for an RPG. How the world feels, if it is realistic or just feels artificially created. Well, Oblivion DOES quite a good job here, in the beginning at least. The Radiant AI, even though underdeveloped, does its part here. Also inside the towns it feels quite good. But still not half as good as the Gothic series or even Ultima 7. Most people just wander around engaging in random convos. That's nothing compared to the daily work cycles of Gothic or Ultima 7. And then the wilderness and dungeons. Yes, they are, environmentally, very believable. But why the fuck is EVERYONE the same level as you? Always? There are no stronger enemies and no weaker ones. Everybody is the same. And then in the later stages when every bandit wears uber armor and weapons, it is just getting ridiculous.
Now let's see Dark Messiah. When come into the town in the first chapter, it gets sieged. Quite spectacular effects and all that. Looks great and really helps on immersion. Especially as the guard in front of the gates first asks you what you want in town and why you are here. Gives it all a realistic feel, and gives the gates and the guards a sense. Well, then, after successfully repelling the attack you are inside town. There are people walking around, scared because of the attack. some talk to each other. Guards are on patrol. I picked up one of the barrels and threw it at the walls just to see the physics engine react to it. Then a guard came running and looked what was up because of the noise it made. Nice. The town really feels alive, okay, also not as alive as Gothic or Ultiuma 7, but it has a more realistic feel than Oblivion. Oh, and when you enter a house, the guards call you out again. Also something that I missed in Oblivion, when you enter an unlocked house, nobody cares. Not even the owner.
Now, the dungeons. Sure, the game is linear. Very linear. But still, the enemies are more believable than in Oblivion for sure. They might be adjusted to your level, but not in the way of Oblivion. Actually, the don't level at all with you. You can just never spend your experience points and stay on the same noob level as in the beginning, but that won't affect the enemies. They will be still as strong as normally. Not weaker because you are weak. That's a clear bonus for Dark Messiah. Oh, and also the Orcs are having chats between each other and walk patrols and all that. More realistic than Oblivion's goblins who just stand around. And the goblins actually have a morale. They flee when you're getting to dangerous. And they mock you when you flee. Definitely more immersive.
Now to the physics. Oblivion and Dark Messiah both have quite a decent physics engine. In both games it adds to the believability of the game world and to the Roleplaying fun you can have [I'm the evil pillow thrower mwahaha!]. The difference is that in Oblivion it is just a thing to play with, like throwing around stuff for fun or dragging corpses around. It has absolutely no gameplay affects though. You throw something at someones head, he doesn't react. Throw everything from the table and the NPC doesn't care. In Dark Messiah the physics are integrated into the gameplay. Throw a chest or a barrel at an enemy and they get hurt. And thrown back. Kick a fragile statue and it falls down, smashing all standing underneath it. This is fun and adds a lot to the credibility of the world, and also to the gameplay. Not like in Oblivion where it has no effect at all [except that you can drag objects around, oh the fun].
Now to Item Placement. Oblivion does that quite, well... illogical. At high level even lowly bandits have uber stuff and in the beginning even the huge chest in the deepest part of the ruin has got lowly first level equipment. Just what the fuck, seriously?
In Dark Messiah you find mightier weapons the farther you progress, sure. But they are on logical places, mostly. You can find a sword in the chambers of the soldiers. Daggers sticking in an assassinated man [somewhere in the end of chapter 3]. You can even find metal and forge a sword out of it, when you find a forge. That's creative item placement. Give the player a raw material, then let him make his weapon himself when he finds a forge. Definitely adds to the experience. Oh, and none of the enemies has uber weapons and armor, you must find these in chests and other places [actually one of the best swords is the one you can forge out of flamegold or however that metal is called].
Now, the most important part of an RPG, choices and storyline. In this part Dark Messiah totally OWNS Oblivion. Oblivion has a cliché Fantasy story, which is also quite predictable. Not very interesting really. I still wonder why it won Gamespot's story award, but maybe Gamespot is just plain stupid and influenced by the mainstream media and the rich company that is Bethesda. Whatever. The sidequests are indeed creative though, and they got some of the best sidequest sotries ever. Really. It's NOT just go and fetch thing A and bring it to person B. It's really creative. But that's all about it. They are fairly linear though. And you are led by the hand with those green little pointers. It's quite good for an interactive novel maybe, but not for a game. There is no challenge in following a green pointer, hack some enemies which were scaled to your level so you can easily defeat them, and then get back to the questgiver [by following a green little pointer. Wow.].
In Dark Messiah, the storyline is much better. In the beginning you don't know anything really. And it gets more and more confusing till chapter 6. Then there finally comes a turning point in the storyline which gives everything a sense. And which is exceptionally dramatic. Wow. I loved that point. Well, after that the story is also quite nice. I'm not giving away any spoilers here though.
Now to the choices. Yes, it IS linear. Very. And you can't even choose your dialogue options, your character responds automatically with predefined phrases. But still, there is a LOT more choice than in Oblivion. At least in the end. In chapter eight, there is some particular person you can [optional!] rescue from the spider pits. If you don't, you miss out on XP. Whatever. I saved her. But you can kill her after saving her. If you keep her alive, she will help you in the end. Nice. Then in Chapter nine you can do a special pilgrimage. If you do it, you will lose a certain power but gain incredibly powerful weapons. The choice is yours! And it has quite an impact on the next chapter, too, not very big, but surly more than any of your choices in Oblivion [okay, you don't have any choices there, but whatever]. And in the end [in which you can get helped by a certain person, depending on if you kept her alive], when you defeated the main evil guy, you have another choice. A fundamentary choice. An important choice. The choice of what you do with the powerful artifact you have gained. Do the evil thing or the good thing?
Well, there are multiple endings then. Not only depending on if you did the good or the evil thing in the end, also on if you made this special pilgrimage and if you elft that particular person alive who helped you in the end. All in all that should make 6 different endings! [or even more, I dunno, or maybe less, whatever, I haven't tried all of them yet and I'm no math genius either.] Oblivion has exactly one ending.
So, what's the conclusion? An action game with a few RPG elements thrown in has more Role Playing value than an RPG. Actually, another action game which tries to be an RPG. Dark Messiah doesn't try to be an RPG, but it has more success in that than Oblivion which claims to be a real pure RPG.
Sure, Oblivion has more of the sterotypical stuff which defines an RPG, like character creation, free world exploration, more sidequests and blah blah etc etc yada yada.
What's the difference is that Oblivion might have the quantity and the usual features of RPGs, but Dark Messiah offers more in quality, despite the obvious more action and much much shorter game. It has a deeper story and even different outcomes of said story. So, actually, it is less linear than Oblivion, which would make me think now...
Cheers
-Frank-
I found these forums a few days ago and now I decided to sign up.
I've been on the Elder Scrolls forums for quite some time [and once even having been banned for surpassing the auto censor... bleh. I hated Archaeopterix, and I think she hated me, too, that's why I got banned...] and played with the thought of creting a thread there which compares Oblivion to Dark Messiah of Might and Magic... in Roleplaying terms!
But, after I read quite a lot here on the Codex, I see that I could get a warning, or at least a dislike of the mods there [again...], when I say that Oblivion sucks in RP compared to a game which is not even an RPG.
Oh well, whatever. Let's just start with the thread and tell me what you think about it.
I am going to make a comparison of Role Playing options between Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, an Fantasy ACTION game and Oblivion, an RPG. Sounds like an unfair match for sure, one of them is action, the other one RPG... and it is unfair indeed, but we shall see for which of these two games...
So, basically, let's start with the basics. In Oblivion you can choose your own character. You can define race, gender and class. In Dark Messiah, you get a premade guy called Sareth. But still, you never see Sareth's face and thus you can "create" his looks in your mind. Imagine how your character looks. And you can develop him throughout the game, during the gameplay. Sure, it might be linear, but there are also "sidequests" [optional missions] during the game. And thus you can get a different number of experience points depending on how you play everytime you play the game. And you can develop your character. And this is done a LOT better than in Oblivion.
In Oblivion you end up being a master in ALL skills, no matter what you chose in the beginning. Every character class can max out all of her skills. All of them. There is no ROLE playing in that anymore, it's just powergaming. In Dark Messiah the experience you can get is limited. And thus are your choices in character development. Yes, you CAN choose to be assassin, warrior and mage at the same time. But it will be less effective than a specialization, which is realistic and adds to roleplay. Play a wizard. Play a warrior. Play an assassin. Play a jack-of-all-trades who is not as specialized but average to relatively good in everything. Isn't that more role-playing than being able to do everything? You have to live with the limitations of the game and of your character, and not max out everything till you are uber l33t.
Now let's come to immersion of the world, which is also quite important for an RPG. How the world feels, if it is realistic or just feels artificially created. Well, Oblivion DOES quite a good job here, in the beginning at least. The Radiant AI, even though underdeveloped, does its part here. Also inside the towns it feels quite good. But still not half as good as the Gothic series or even Ultima 7. Most people just wander around engaging in random convos. That's nothing compared to the daily work cycles of Gothic or Ultima 7. And then the wilderness and dungeons. Yes, they are, environmentally, very believable. But why the fuck is EVERYONE the same level as you? Always? There are no stronger enemies and no weaker ones. Everybody is the same. And then in the later stages when every bandit wears uber armor and weapons, it is just getting ridiculous.
Now let's see Dark Messiah. When come into the town in the first chapter, it gets sieged. Quite spectacular effects and all that. Looks great and really helps on immersion. Especially as the guard in front of the gates first asks you what you want in town and why you are here. Gives it all a realistic feel, and gives the gates and the guards a sense. Well, then, after successfully repelling the attack you are inside town. There are people walking around, scared because of the attack. some talk to each other. Guards are on patrol. I picked up one of the barrels and threw it at the walls just to see the physics engine react to it. Then a guard came running and looked what was up because of the noise it made. Nice. The town really feels alive, okay, also not as alive as Gothic or Ultiuma 7, but it has a more realistic feel than Oblivion. Oh, and when you enter a house, the guards call you out again. Also something that I missed in Oblivion, when you enter an unlocked house, nobody cares. Not even the owner.
Now, the dungeons. Sure, the game is linear. Very linear. But still, the enemies are more believable than in Oblivion for sure. They might be adjusted to your level, but not in the way of Oblivion. Actually, the don't level at all with you. You can just never spend your experience points and stay on the same noob level as in the beginning, but that won't affect the enemies. They will be still as strong as normally. Not weaker because you are weak. That's a clear bonus for Dark Messiah. Oh, and also the Orcs are having chats between each other and walk patrols and all that. More realistic than Oblivion's goblins who just stand around. And the goblins actually have a morale. They flee when you're getting to dangerous. And they mock you when you flee. Definitely more immersive.
Now to the physics. Oblivion and Dark Messiah both have quite a decent physics engine. In both games it adds to the believability of the game world and to the Roleplaying fun you can have [I'm the evil pillow thrower mwahaha!]. The difference is that in Oblivion it is just a thing to play with, like throwing around stuff for fun or dragging corpses around. It has absolutely no gameplay affects though. You throw something at someones head, he doesn't react. Throw everything from the table and the NPC doesn't care. In Dark Messiah the physics are integrated into the gameplay. Throw a chest or a barrel at an enemy and they get hurt. And thrown back. Kick a fragile statue and it falls down, smashing all standing underneath it. This is fun and adds a lot to the credibility of the world, and also to the gameplay. Not like in Oblivion where it has no effect at all [except that you can drag objects around, oh the fun].
Now to Item Placement. Oblivion does that quite, well... illogical. At high level even lowly bandits have uber stuff and in the beginning even the huge chest in the deepest part of the ruin has got lowly first level equipment. Just what the fuck, seriously?
In Dark Messiah you find mightier weapons the farther you progress, sure. But they are on logical places, mostly. You can find a sword in the chambers of the soldiers. Daggers sticking in an assassinated man [somewhere in the end of chapter 3]. You can even find metal and forge a sword out of it, when you find a forge. That's creative item placement. Give the player a raw material, then let him make his weapon himself when he finds a forge. Definitely adds to the experience. Oh, and none of the enemies has uber weapons and armor, you must find these in chests and other places [actually one of the best swords is the one you can forge out of flamegold or however that metal is called].
Now, the most important part of an RPG, choices and storyline. In this part Dark Messiah totally OWNS Oblivion. Oblivion has a cliché Fantasy story, which is also quite predictable. Not very interesting really. I still wonder why it won Gamespot's story award, but maybe Gamespot is just plain stupid and influenced by the mainstream media and the rich company that is Bethesda. Whatever. The sidequests are indeed creative though, and they got some of the best sidequest sotries ever. Really. It's NOT just go and fetch thing A and bring it to person B. It's really creative. But that's all about it. They are fairly linear though. And you are led by the hand with those green little pointers. It's quite good for an interactive novel maybe, but not for a game. There is no challenge in following a green pointer, hack some enemies which were scaled to your level so you can easily defeat them, and then get back to the questgiver [by following a green little pointer. Wow.].
In Dark Messiah, the storyline is much better. In the beginning you don't know anything really. And it gets more and more confusing till chapter 6. Then there finally comes a turning point in the storyline which gives everything a sense. And which is exceptionally dramatic. Wow. I loved that point. Well, after that the story is also quite nice. I'm not giving away any spoilers here though.
Now to the choices. Yes, it IS linear. Very. And you can't even choose your dialogue options, your character responds automatically with predefined phrases. But still, there is a LOT more choice than in Oblivion. At least in the end. In chapter eight, there is some particular person you can [optional!] rescue from the spider pits. If you don't, you miss out on XP. Whatever. I saved her. But you can kill her after saving her. If you keep her alive, she will help you in the end. Nice. Then in Chapter nine you can do a special pilgrimage. If you do it, you will lose a certain power but gain incredibly powerful weapons. The choice is yours! And it has quite an impact on the next chapter, too, not very big, but surly more than any of your choices in Oblivion [okay, you don't have any choices there, but whatever]. And in the end [in which you can get helped by a certain person, depending on if you kept her alive], when you defeated the main evil guy, you have another choice. A fundamentary choice. An important choice. The choice of what you do with the powerful artifact you have gained. Do the evil thing or the good thing?
Well, there are multiple endings then. Not only depending on if you did the good or the evil thing in the end, also on if you made this special pilgrimage and if you elft that particular person alive who helped you in the end. All in all that should make 6 different endings! [or even more, I dunno, or maybe less, whatever, I haven't tried all of them yet and I'm no math genius either.] Oblivion has exactly one ending.
So, what's the conclusion? An action game with a few RPG elements thrown in has more Role Playing value than an RPG. Actually, another action game which tries to be an RPG. Dark Messiah doesn't try to be an RPG, but it has more success in that than Oblivion which claims to be a real pure RPG.
Sure, Oblivion has more of the sterotypical stuff which defines an RPG, like character creation, free world exploration, more sidequests and blah blah etc etc yada yada.
What's the difference is that Oblivion might have the quantity and the usual features of RPGs, but Dark Messiah offers more in quality, despite the obvious more action and much much shorter game. It has a deeper story and even different outcomes of said story. So, actually, it is less linear than Oblivion, which would make me think now...
Cheers
-Frank-
