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A eulogy for Alignment in CRPGs

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Mon Dieu. Twelve pages of sophistry.
:deadtroll:

If you don't understand how to use the alignment axis, you're either not paying enough attention to the neutral alignments or you are some kind of sophomoric relativist. Also, you may be expecting too much out of a game mechanic, where the outcome of everything from a thrown pebble to reality shattering magic is determined by a D20+integer.
 
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Shitty Kitty

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Messages
556
Reputation > Alignment

Reputation doesn't make you recoil from Protection from evil 10". Nor would a 1000 years old sentient artifact sword care what do the hicks from Modoc think about you.
Sounds like a problem with the game system :smug:

Mon Dieu. Twelve pages of sophistry.
:deadtroll:

If you don't understand how to use the alignment axis, you're either not paying enough attention to the neutral alignments or you are some kind of sophomoric relativist. Also, you may be expecting too much out of a game mechanic, where the outcome of everything from a thrown pebble to reality shattering magic is determined by a D20+integer.
I know you autists love to dumb down philosophy to try and shoehorn it into crunch but have you ever considered you might be happier playing something that doesn't touch on philosophy? Something more appropriate for 10th graders?
I know!
The_Elder_Scrolls_IV_Oblivion_cover.png
 

mondblut

Arcane
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Self-Ejected

Shitty Kitty

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Messages
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Goose

Learned
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The Crucible
Reputation > Alignment

Reputation doesn't make you recoil from Protection from evil 10". Nor would a 1000 years old sentient artifact sword care what do the hicks from Modoc think about you.
Sounds like a problem with the game system :smug:

Mon Dieu. Twelve pages of sophistry.
:deadtroll:

If you don't understand how to use the alignment axis, you're either not paying enough attention to the neutral alignments or you are some kind of sophomoric relativist. Also, you may be expecting too much out of a game mechanic, where the outcome of everything from a thrown pebble to reality shattering magic is determined by a D20+integer.
I know you autists love to dumb down philosophy to try and shoehorn it into crunch but have you ever considered you might be happier playing something that doesn't touch on philosophy? Something more appropriate for 10th graders?
I know!
The_Elder_Scrolls_IV_Oblivion_cover.png

Wouldn't Oblivion be your kinda game?

There's no muh oppressive alignment, no skill/stat cap, you can join every faction without consequence, etc.
 
Self-Ejected

Shitty Kitty

Self-Ejected
Joined
Sep 9, 2020
Messages
556
Reputation > Alignment

Reputation doesn't make you recoil from Protection from evil 10". Nor would a 1000 years old sentient artifact sword care what do the hicks from Modoc think about you.
Sounds like a problem with the game system :smug:

Mon Dieu. Twelve pages of sophistry.
:deadtroll:

If you don't understand how to use the alignment axis, you're either not paying enough attention to the neutral alignments or you are some kind of sophomoric relativist. Also, you may be expecting too much out of a game mechanic, where the outcome of everything from a thrown pebble to reality shattering magic is determined by a D20+integer.
I know you autists love to dumb down philosophy to try and shoehorn it into crunch but have you ever considered you might be happier playing something that doesn't touch on philosophy? Something more appropriate for 10th graders?
I know!
The_Elder_Scrolls_IV_Oblivion_cover.png

Wouldn't Oblivion be your kinda game?

There's no muh oppressive alignment, no skill/stat cap, you can join every faction.
"N-no u!" screams the retard who wants to boil down philosophy to 9 choices

You're the one who wants an idiot-button for philosophical quandaries here, like you're choosing from a fucking sodapop machine
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
13,059
Good isn'’t stupid, Paladins & Rangers, and Female dwarves do have beards!
Gary Gygax©

There seems to be a continuing misunderstanding amongst a segment of Advanced D&D players as to what the term “good” actually means. This problem does cut both ways, of course, for if good is not clearly defined, how can evil be known? Moral and ethical precepts are based on religious doctrines, secular laws, family teachings, and individual perceptions of these combined tenets. It might be disturbing if one reflected deeply upon the whys and wherefores of the singular inability of so many players to determine for themselves the rights and wrongs of good behavior— unless one related this inability to the fact that the game is fantasy and therefore realized (rationalized?) that this curious lack must stem from the inability to draw a parallel between daily life and the imagined milieu. In order to clear the record immediately, then, and define the term “good” for all participants, it means everything defined in the dictionary as augmented and modified by one’s moral and ethical upbringing and the laws of the land!

Gentle Reader, if you are in doubt about a certain action, and this applies particularly to all who play Rangers and Paladins, relate it to your real life. It is most probable that what is considered “good” in reality can be “good” in fantasy. The reverse is not quite so true, so I’ll quantify things a bit.

Good does not mean stupid, even if your DM tries to force that concept upon you. Such assertions are themselves asinine, and those who accept such dictates are stupid. To quantify “good,” however, we must also consider the three modifiers in AD&D: 1) lawful, 2) neutral, 3) chaotic.

1) The lawful perception of good dictates that the order which, promotes the greatest good for the greatest number is best. It further postulates that disorder brings results which erode the capability of bestowing good to the majority. Therefore, without law and order, good pales into nothingness.

2) Good from the neutral perception is perhaps the purest sort, in that it cares not for order or individual freedom above overall good, so there are no constraints upon the definition of what is good. Whatever accomplishes the good result is acceptable, and the means used should not be so fixed as to bring bad to any creature if an alternative way exists which accomplishes the desired good without bringing ill to others—or better still, brings good to all in one degree or another.

3) The chaotic views good from an individual standpoint, of necessity. The very stuff of chaos is individual volition, freedom from all constraints, the right of person above all else. Good is first and foremost applied to self; thereafter to those surrounding self; lastly to those furthest removed from self—a ripple effect, if you will. It is important to understand that “good” for self must not mean “bad” for others, although the “good” for self might not bring like benefits to others-or any benefit at all, for that matter. However, the latter case is justifiable as “good” only if it enables the individual to be in a better position to bring real “good” to others within the foreseeable future.

One of the advantages of AD&D over the real world is that we do have pretty clear definitions of good and evil—if not conceptually (as is evident from the necessity of this article), at least nominally. Characters and monsters alike bear handy labels to allow for easy identification of their moral and ethical standing. Black is black, gray is gray, white is white. There are intensities of black, degrees of grayness, and shades of white, of course; but the big tags are there to read nonetheless. The final arbiter in any campaign is the DM, the person who figuratively puts in the fine print on these alignment labels, but he or she must follow the general outlines of the rule book or else face the fact that his or her campaign is not AD&D. Furthermore, participants in such a campaign can cease playing. That is the surest and most vocal manner in which to evidence displeasure with the conduct of a referee. In effect, the labels and their general meanings are defined in AD&D, and the details must be scribed by the group participating.

Perceptions of good vary according to age, culture, and theological training. A child sees no good in punishment meted out by parents-let us say for playing with matches. Cultural definitions of good might call for a loud belch after eating, or the sacrifice of any person who performs some taboo act. Theological definitions of good are as varied as cultural definitions, and then some, for culture is affected by and affects religion, and there are more distinct religious beliefs than there are distinct cultures. It is impossible, then, for one work to be absolute in its delineation of good and evil, law and chaos, and the middle ground between (if such can exist in reality). This does not, however, mean that “good” can be anything desired, and anyone who tells you, in effect, that good means stupid, deserves a derisive jeer (at least).

The “Sage Advice” column in The Dragon #36 (Vol. IV, No. 10, April 1980) contained some interesting questions and answers regarding “good” as related to Paladins and Rangers. Let us examine these in light of the foregoing. A player with a Paladin character asks if this character can “put someone to death (who) is severely scarred and doesn’'t want to live.” Although the Sage Advice reply was a strong negative, the actual truth of the matter might lie somewhere else. The player does not give the name of the deity served by the Paladin. This is the key to lawful good behavior in AD&D terms. Remember that “good” can be related to reality ofttimes, but not always. It might also relate to good as perceived in the past, actual or mythical. In the latter case, a Paladin could well force conversion at swordpoint, and, once acceptance of “the true way” was expressed, dispatch the new convert on the spot. This assures that the prodigal will not return to the former evil ways, sends the now-saved spirit on to a better place, and incidentally rids the world of a potential troublemaker. Such actions are “good,” in these ways:

1. Evil is abridged (by at least one creature).
2. Good has gained a convert.
3. The convert now has hope for rewards (rather than torment) in the afterlife.
4. The good populace is safer (by a factor of at least 1).

It is therefore possible for a Paladin to, in fact, actually perform a “mercy killing” such as the inquiring player asked about, provided the tenets of his or her theology permitted it. While unlikely, it is possible.

Another case in point was that of a player with a Paladin character who wishes to marry and begin a lineage. Again, our “Sage Advisor” suggests a negative. While many religions forbid wedlock and demand celibacy, this is by no means universal. The key is again the deity served, of course. DMs not using specific deities will harken back to the origin of the term Paladin and realize that celibacy is not a condition of that sort of Paladinhood. Also, although the Roman Catholic church demands celibacy of its priests, the doctrines of Judeo-Christianity hold matrimony and child bearing and rearing as holy and proper, i.e. “good.” So unless a particular deity demands celibacy of its fighter-minions, there is no conceivable reason for a Paladin not to marry and raise children. This is a matter for common sense—and the DM, who, if not arbitrary, will probably agree with the spirit of AD&D and allow marriage and children (This must be a long-range campaign, or else its participants are preoccupied with unusual aspects of the game. No matter...)

The third inquiry concerned a Ranger character. The writer claimed that his or her DM combined with a lawful good Ranger to insist that a wounded Wyvern was to be protected, not slain, unless it attacked the party. Here is a classic case of players being told that (lawful) good equates with stupidity. To assert that a man-killing monster with evil tendencies should be protected by a lawful good Ranger is pure insanity. How many lives does this risk immediately? How many victims are condemned to death later? In short, this is not “good” by any accepted standards! It is much the same as sparing a rabid dog or a rogue elephant or a man-eating tiger.

If good is carefully considered, compared to and contrasted with evil, then common sense will enable most, if not all, questions regarding the behavior of Paladins and Rangers to be settled on the spot. Consideration of the character’s deity is of principal merit after arriving at an understanding of good. Thereafter, campaign “world” moral and ethical teachings on a cultural basis must rule. These concepts might be drawn from myth or some other source. What matters is that a definition of “good” is established upon intelligent and reasonable grounds. Viewpoints do differ, so absolutes (especially in a game) are both undesirable and impossible.

- Dragon Magazine #38, June 1980
 

DraQ

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Yes. Not because LG are adverse to killing though.

His actions would willingly lead to the death of an innocent.
So would his inaction.
Regardless of the choice the paladin makes decision and as direct consequence someone dies and someone survives.
The only difference is that in one case he remains passive, but hey, if your ideal of paladin is "as long as I don't lift my finger everything is ok and it doesn't matter who dies", who am I to judge?

:khajiit paladin would intervene but doesn't give a fuck:

If a paladin's personal code is such that orcs are always evil, then there is no issue with killing evil even if it is an infant.
And if paladin's personal code is that Jews are always evil...
:discohitler:
Shouldn't have expected better from the 'dex these days, TBH.
So much for "waah relativism!", BTW.
Lawful good is not lawful nice. There are plenty of LG(or similar) deities in the D&D multiverse pantheon that would agree with killing the orc baby that would choose said paladin as their champion.
We just have to look at The Triad for an example of three gods who would likely all view the situation differently despite all being LG. Torm would undoubtedly favor killing the orc baby, and Ilmater would oppose it. Tyr could possibly go either way.
And historically the concept would also differ wildly.
Which only highlights how useless it is in a game.
Alignment is a tool for both the DM and the player. The problem with cRPGs is that you can't present your case or reason with the DM.
Except it's a defective tool and unnecessary to boot.

A live GM and players are unlikely to benefit from any alignment system for communicating concepts, suffer the artificial constraints it imposes and mechanically you can express the same shit in much better ways (ethos, reputation - and yes, this may include reputations with all sorts of supernatural).
In a cRPG the idea is downright broken.

And not only is ethos+reputation vastly superior to any alignment system, the iso standard DnD alignment matrix is pretty much the bottom of the barrel when it comes to alignments too (only 4e version is worse):
  • The original bare law-chaos axis was better.
  • Replacing good evil-axis with selfish-selfless would already be better and less ambiguous.
  • Same with above and contracting the chaotic side yielding triangular alignment chart with selfless-selfish on the order side (use social order as a means of maximizing happiness and protecting the weak, VS using it as force multiplier for the strong) and just chaotic on the remaining one.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Perceptions of good vary according to age, culture, and theological training. A child sees no good in punishment meted out by parents-let us say for playing with matches. Cultural definitions of good might call for a loud belch after eating, or the sacrifice of any person who performs some taboo act. Theological definitions of good are as varied as cultural definitions, and then some, for culture is affected by and affects religion, and there are more distinct religious beliefs than there are distinct cultures. It is impossible, then, for one work to be absolute in its delineation of good and evil, law and chaos, and the middle ground between (if such can exist in reality). This does not, however, mean that “good” can be anything desired, and anyone who tells you, in effect, that good means stupid, deserves a derisive jeer (at least).
How anyone can read this (or for that matter, read the player’s handbook entry I posted) and conclude that D&D alignments are some caricature of good and evil that you’re forced into is beyond me.

Reading these articles by Gygax has me finding a new appreciation for just how well thought out and nuanced the alignment system really is (or was).

It’s a shame D&D has become so watered down, to the point that even fantasy races no longer are allowed to have negative buffs to stats. Soon I’m sure they’ll eliminate the positive buffs too. Because we’re all “equal” after all. :roll:
 
Self-Ejected

Shitty Kitty

Self-Ejected
Joined
Sep 9, 2020
Messages
556
Perceptions of good vary according to age, culture, and theological training. A child sees no good in punishment meted out by parents-let us say for playing with matches. Cultural definitions of good might call for a loud belch after eating, or the sacrifice of any person who performs some taboo act. Theological definitions of good are as varied as cultural definitions, and then some, for culture is affected by and affects religion, and there are more distinct religious beliefs than there are distinct cultures. It is impossible, then, for one work to be absolute in its delineation of good and evil, law and chaos, and the middle ground between (if such can exist in reality). This does not, however, mean that “good” can be anything desired, and anyone who tells you, in effect, that good means stupid, deserves a derisive jeer (at least).
How anyone can read this (or for that matter, read the player’s handbook entry I posted) and conclude that D&D alignments are some caricature of good and evil that you’re forced into is beyond me.

Reading these articles by Gygax has me finding a new appreciation for just how well thought out and nuanced the alignment system really is (or was).

It’s a shame D&D has become so watered down, to the point that even fantasy races no longer are allowed to have negative buffs to stats. Soon I’m sure they’ll eliminate the positive buffs too. Because we’re all “equal” after all. :roll:
So you're telling me the only reason you'd play a given race is for the stats? You seem to be bemoaning the very idea of playing a given race simply because it might give a character a different perspective on the world in which it exists. OH NO NOW I CAN'T POWERGAME WITH (BEST RACE FOR X CLASS HERE). You want to be spoonfed a template with lots of shiny numbers on it and murderhobo.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Perceptions of good vary according to age, culture, and theological training. A child sees no good in punishment meted out by parents-let us say for playing with matches. Cultural definitions of good might call for a loud belch after eating, or the sacrifice of any person who performs some taboo act. Theological definitions of good are as varied as cultural definitions, and then some, for culture is affected by and affects religion, and there are more distinct religious beliefs than there are distinct cultures. It is impossible, then, for one work to be absolute in its delineation of good and evil, law and chaos, and the middle ground between (if such can exist in reality). This does not, however, mean that “good” can be anything desired, and anyone who tells you, in effect, that good means stupid, deserves a derisive jeer (at least).
How anyone can read this (or for that matter, read the player’s handbook entry I posted) and conclude that D&D alignments are some caricature of good and evil that you’re forced into is beyond me.

Reading these articles by Gygax has me finding a new appreciation for just how well thought out and nuanced the alignment system really is (or was).

It’s a shame D&D has become so watered down, to the point that even fantasy races no longer are allowed to have negative buffs to stats. Soon I’m sure they’ll eliminate the positive buffs too. Because we’re all “equal” after all. :roll:
So you're telling me the only reason you'd play a given race is for the stats? You seem to be bemoaning the very idea of playing a given race simply because it might give a character a different perspective on the world in which it exists. OH NO NOW I CAN'T POWERGAME WITH (BEST RACE FOR X CLASS HERE). You want to be spoonfed a template with lots of shiny numbers on it and murderhobo.
If what you say were true, I wouldn’t be upset about them removing *negative* buffs.

Strawman more, autismo.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
22,686
Location
Ingrija
a Paladin could well force conversion at swordpoint, and, once acceptance of “the true way” was expressed, dispatch the new convert on the spot. This assures that the prodigal will not return to the former evil ways, sends the now-saved spirit on to a better place, and incidentally rids the world of a potential troublemaker.

Oooh, crafty! :smug:
 
Self-Ejected

Shitty Kitty

Self-Ejected
Joined
Sep 9, 2020
Messages
556
Perceptions of good vary according to age, culture, and theological training. A child sees no good in punishment meted out by parents-let us say for playing with matches. Cultural definitions of good might call for a loud belch after eating, or the sacrifice of any person who performs some taboo act. Theological definitions of good are as varied as cultural definitions, and then some, for culture is affected by and affects religion, and there are more distinct religious beliefs than there are distinct cultures. It is impossible, then, for one work to be absolute in its delineation of good and evil, law and chaos, and the middle ground between (if such can exist in reality). This does not, however, mean that “good” can be anything desired, and anyone who tells you, in effect, that good means stupid, deserves a derisive jeer (at least).
How anyone can read this (or for that matter, read the player’s handbook entry I posted) and conclude that D&D alignments are some caricature of good and evil that you’re forced into is beyond me.

Reading these articles by Gygax has me finding a new appreciation for just how well thought out and nuanced the alignment system really is (or was).

It’s a shame D&D has become so watered down, to the point that even fantasy races no longer are allowed to have negative buffs to stats. Soon I’m sure they’ll eliminate the positive buffs too. Because we’re all “equal” after all. :roll:
So you're telling me the only reason you'd play a given race is for the stats? You seem to be bemoaning the very idea of playing a given race simply because it might give a character a different perspective on the world in which it exists. OH NO NOW I CAN'T POWERGAME WITH (BEST RACE FOR X CLASS HERE). You want to be spoonfed a template with lots of shiny numbers on it and murderhobo.
If what you say were true, I wouldn’t be upset about them removing *negative* buffs.

Strawman more, autismo.
The fact that you're upset about the possibility of innate stat differences disappearing means that no, it's not a strawman, and you're more attached to the presence of numbers than you are to the concept of the character, you powergaming faggot.
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
Again, you guys are focusing on whether or not the GM has an agenda, or whether or not the GM is able to read the players' minds... And all of this is completely and utterly irrelevant. The DM is the one who is the link of the players to the reality of the game's universe. For all practical purposes, the DM can even overrule a decision or description of a player, if he so wishes.

He can make factual statements about the characters' internal reality, such as "you (aka, your character) felt fear," or "you felt repulsion," or whatever else he wants.
He can also play with his plastic figurines alone after his players abandon him for the impaired fucktard he is.

Bad GMs and bad cRPGs maybe railroading players through *their* story, forcing them into cutscene mode, telling them what they do and say and think.
Good cRPGs and good GMs respect player's agency which means that player is actually a *player* and their character is actually *their* character.
Player is effectively their character's mind and their alignment. The character is free to act the way player decides (or die trying) unless there are specific reasons for overriding that (for example, character is under mind control).

GM is firmly the universe and PC's body, player PC's conscious mind, anything inbetween is a bit of a grey zone, but can be sorted out.

If you are to witness someone else's character performing someone else's actions, speaking someone else's words and going through someone else's story, there are plenty of genres that do it much better than RPGs and plenty of media that do it much better than games.

Good GM can, at best play character's senses and part of their subconscious - warn (preferably subtly) when the character is about to commit a blunder they normally wouldn't, or forgo doing something they normally would, offer cues and so on.

And yeah, that also means that when you want to have PC believe something you have to do it the hard way - by successfully bullshitting the player.

For that reason it makes sense to separate most of mental stuff and mechanics into a separate category and preferably just not use it as much as possible in a PnP, and only use it in cRPG as much as it is necessary to simulate mental state of NPCs.

And as far as alignment goes, while live DM is at least somewhat equipped (unless severely autistic) for guessing what goes in player's head, for computer player's motives are literally non-concept, and that's why including alignment systems in cRPGs is ultimately exercise in futility at best.

For the record, this guy looks like he's mostly GMing right:
https://theangrygm.com/insight-into-insight/
https://theangrygm.com/not-ready-to-manage-interaction/
 
Self-Ejected

Shitty Kitty

Self-Ejected
Joined
Sep 9, 2020
Messages
556
Again, you guys are focusing on whether or not the GM has an agenda, or whether or not the GM is able to read the players' minds... And all of this is completely and utterly irrelevant. The DM is the one who is the link of the players to the reality of the game's universe. For all practical purposes, the DM can even overrule a decision or description of a player, if he so wishes.

He can make factual statements about the characters' internal reality, such as "you (aka, your character) felt fear," or "you felt repulsion," or whatever else he wants.
He can also play with his plastic figurines alone after his players abandon him for the impaired fucktard he is.

Bad GMs and bad cRPGs maybe railroading players through *their* story, forcing them into cutscene mode, telling them what they do and say and think.
Good cRPGs and good GMs respect player's agency which means that player is actually a *player* and their character is actually *their* character.
Player is effectively their character's mind and their alignment. The character is free to act the way player decides (or die trying) unless there are specific reasons for overriding that (for example, character is under mind control).

GM is firmly the universe and PC's body, player PC's conscious mind, anything inbetween is a bit of a grey zone, but can be sorted out.

If you are to witness someone else's character performing someone else's actions, speaking someone else's words and going through someone else's story, there are plenty of genres that do it much better than RPGs and plenty of media that do it much better than games.

Good GM can, at best play character's senses and part of their subconscious - warn (preferably subtly) when the character is about to commit a blunder they normally wouldn't, or forgo doing something they normally would, offer cues and so on.

And yeah, that also means that when you want to have PC believe something you have to do it the hard way - by successfully bullshitting the player.

For that reason it makes sense to separate most of mental stuff and mechanics into a separate category and preferably just not use it as much as possible in a PnP, and only use it in cRPG as much as it is necessary to simulate mental state of NPCs.

And as far as alignment goes, while live DM is at least somewhat equipped (unless severely autistic) for guessing what goes in player's head, for computer player's motives are literally non-concept, and that's why including alignment systems in cRPGs is ultimately exercise in futility at best.

For the record, this guy looks like he's mostly GMing right:
https://theangrygm.com/insight-into-insight/
https://theangrygm.com/not-ready-to-manage-interaction/
I like this guy. Good insights. No pun intended.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Perceptions of good vary according to age, culture, and theological training. A child sees no good in punishment meted out by parents-let us say for playing with matches. Cultural definitions of good might call for a loud belch after eating, or the sacrifice of any person who performs some taboo act. Theological definitions of good are as varied as cultural definitions, and then some, for culture is affected by and affects religion, and there are more distinct religious beliefs than there are distinct cultures. It is impossible, then, for one work to be absolute in its delineation of good and evil, law and chaos, and the middle ground between (if such can exist in reality). This does not, however, mean that “good” can be anything desired, and anyone who tells you, in effect, that good means stupid, deserves a derisive jeer (at least).
How anyone can read this (or for that matter, read the player’s handbook entry I posted) and conclude that D&D alignments are some caricature of good and evil that you’re forced into is beyond me.

Reading these articles by Gygax has me finding a new appreciation for just how well thought out and nuanced the alignment system really is (or was).

It’s a shame D&D has become so watered down, to the point that even fantasy races no longer are allowed to have negative buffs to stats. Soon I’m sure they’ll eliminate the positive buffs too. Because we’re all “equal” after all. :roll:
So you're telling me the only reason you'd play a given race is for the stats? You seem to be bemoaning the very idea of playing a given race simply because it might give a character a different perspective on the world in which it exists. OH NO NOW I CAN'T POWERGAME WITH (BEST RACE FOR X CLASS HERE). You want to be spoonfed a template with lots of shiny numbers on it and murderhobo.
If what you say were true, I wouldn’t be upset about them removing *negative* buffs.

Strawman more, autismo.
The fact that you're upset about the possibility of innate stat differences disappearing means that no, it's not a strawman, and you're more attached to the presence of numbers than you are to the concept of the character, you powergaming faggot.
The presence of numbers is what differentiates an RPG from playing pretend.

It’s increasingly clear that you don’t like numbers or the alignment system because they limit your ability to just makeup whatever you want about your character at the drop of a hat like a true casual.

You’re a larper and you should be playing Skyrim, not discussing the mechanics of D&D which you clearly despise the very nature of.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
And as far as alignment goes, while live DM is at least somewhat equipped (unless severely autistic) for guessing what goes in player's head, for computer player's motives are literally non-concept, and that's why including alignment systems in cRPGs is ultimately exercise in futility at best.
I disagree. I remember back when I played BG for the first time, my alignment served as a constant reminder as to what kind of character I was playing and kept my game consistent. The world also reacted to it, prohibiting me from using some items and spells and letting me use others.

In BG2, your alignment also determined your starting innate abilities.

And that’s BG, which had a mostly broken and superficial implementation of the alignment system.

While at times I disagreed with the alignment system (often times Jaheira is NG, not TN), I have always found it a useful tool in games. It adds structure and reactivity when properly implemented.

It’s also a useful tool in game design to try to make sure characters have some moral and philosophical dimensions beyond their immediate plot objectives.

Of course, when improperly implemented, it’s trash, but so is any system.
 
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Self-Ejected

Shitty Kitty

Self-Ejected
Joined
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Messages
556
Perceptions of good vary according to age, culture, and theological training. A child sees no good in punishment meted out by parents-let us say for playing with matches. Cultural definitions of good might call for a loud belch after eating, or the sacrifice of any person who performs some taboo act. Theological definitions of good are as varied as cultural definitions, and then some, for culture is affected by and affects religion, and there are more distinct religious beliefs than there are distinct cultures. It is impossible, then, for one work to be absolute in its delineation of good and evil, law and chaos, and the middle ground between (if such can exist in reality). This does not, however, mean that “good” can be anything desired, and anyone who tells you, in effect, that good means stupid, deserves a derisive jeer (at least).
How anyone can read this (or for that matter, read the player’s handbook entry I posted) and conclude that D&D alignments are some caricature of good and evil that you’re forced into is beyond me.

Reading these articles by Gygax has me finding a new appreciation for just how well thought out and nuanced the alignment system really is (or was).

It’s a shame D&D has become so watered down, to the point that even fantasy races no longer are allowed to have negative buffs to stats. Soon I’m sure they’ll eliminate the positive buffs too. Because we’re all “equal” after all. :roll:
So you're telling me the only reason you'd play a given race is for the stats? You seem to be bemoaning the very idea of playing a given race simply because it might give a character a different perspective on the world in which it exists. OH NO NOW I CAN'T POWERGAME WITH (BEST RACE FOR X CLASS HERE). You want to be spoonfed a template with lots of shiny numbers on it and murderhobo.
If what you say were true, I wouldn’t be upset about them removing *negative* buffs.

Strawman more, autismo.
The fact that you're upset about the possibility of innate stat differences disappearing means that no, it's not a strawman, and you're more attached to the presence of numbers than you are to the concept of the character, you powergaming faggot.
The presence of numbers is what differentiates an RPG from playing pretend.

It’s increasingly clear that you don’t like numbers or the alignment system because they limit your ability to just makeup whatever you want about your character at the drop of a hat like a true casual.

You’re a larper and you should be playing Skyrim, not discussing the mechanics of D&D which you clearly despise the very nature of.
Nigger an RPG is playing pretend. You want a numbers-and-dice-rolling murderhobo sim, not an RPG.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Nigger an RPG is playing pretend. You want a numbers-and-dice-rolling murderhobo sim, not an RPG.
Another strawman, what a shock. :roll:

I like how you don’t even deny you just want to play pretend though.

You’re arguing in bad faith since you claim the system is inadequate, but really you just hate the concept of defining things because it limits you. Childish.

Larp harder, casual.
 
Self-Ejected

Shitty Kitty

Self-Ejected
Joined
Sep 9, 2020
Messages
556
Nigger an RPG is playing pretend. You want a numbers-and-dice-rolling murderhobo sim, not an RPG.
Another strawman, what a shock. :roll:

I like how you don’t even deny you just want to play pretend though.

You’re arguing in bad faith since you claim the system is inadequate, but really you just hate the concept of defining things because it limits you. Childish.

Larp harder, casual.
Ok retard. You should run along and let the adults talk, I hear there are people who haven't heard how much you hate the Jews yet. Get on it.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Nigger an RPG is playing pretend. You want a numbers-and-dice-rolling murderhobo sim, not an RPG.
Another strawman, what a shock. :roll:

I like how you don’t even deny you just want to play pretend though.

You’re arguing in bad faith since you claim the system is inadequate, but really you just hate the concept of defining things because it limits you. Childish.

Larp harder, casual.
Ok retard. You should run along and let the adults talk, I hear there are people who haven't heard how much you hate the Jews yet. Get on it.
Uh huh. Keep deflecting. Maybe no one will notice what a giant moron you are and how you not only lost the argument, but also admitted that you’re a filthy larping casual.
 

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