A great example of why TES matters

[Twinfalls]

Check out this page

http://til.gamingsource.net/dwemer/

Even if you're not a TES fan, just scroll down, click on some of the artwork, observe how cohesively and thoughtfully it's all been put together.

I really think this is stunning. Put together completely by fans, it is like an article from National Geographic of old, like a museum essay on the Aztecs. Look at the artwork for the Dwemer weapons. Wonderful.

It sums up why I care about TES. This is lore and history creation way beyond the call of commerce. The stuff this was based on was not for the money. Hence the inspiration for fans to build on it. When Tedders and the others wrote up all the background stuff for Daggerfall, it wasn't needed to sell the game. Same with Morrowind. I am assuming a lot of the stuff on this page originated with Morrowind. Beth didn't need to elaborate so much on the history, but they did. Plus it's sophisticated, mature and unusual.

Perhaps this is why I get bothered by the direction of TES. It matters, it's something worth complaining about.

And this is why I hope TES in future avoids going down the 'making everything metaphoric for human historical eras' path - the 'Cyrodiil is now Ancient Rome' thing. We need original, fantastical game worlds to flourish.

I don't see much discussion on this site about game-worlds - lore, history, writing etc. It's mainly gameplay mechanics. So:

What are some other examples of CRPG lore that people really like, that are worth exploring? What are game-worlds we'd like to see developed in future?

 

[Athame]

Perhaps this is why I get bothered by the direction of TES. It matters, it's something worth complaining about.

It is and I agree. I feel like it's mine personally. That's why I'm very defensive of it and care so much for its future. At the risk of sounding maudlin, I am a TES fan and I love Elder Scrolls. There is no CRPG world which has meant so much to me.

 

[Chefe]

IMO
Dwarven ruins in Redguard > Dwarven ruins in Morrowind

But anyways, I've said it before, the lore is awesome. The background and history that's been created in Daggerfall, Redguard, and Morrowind is amazing. Personally, I like the "Roman" look of the Imperials that was present in Morrowind and Oblivion. I do prefer the guards in Redguard over the ones in Morrowind though.

I can't think of any other gameworlds I enjoy, with the exception of Avernum and Arcanum. The rest are all just generic fantasy or high-fantasy settings, which I hate.

I'd like Arcanum to be expanded on more. Too bad about Troika though.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You can do that with nearly any CRPG that has a bit of info to discover, though. You could make a page like that devoted to Fallout's ghouls or Geneforge's servile factions or Prelude to Darkness's River Folk.

 

[Twinfalls]

And those pages are at...

None of the actual content is fan-made here, just the summation and organisation. The TES store of artwork and lore is surely relatively impressive in the world of CRPGs.

 

[corvax]

Yay! A thread for TES fans.

TES lore is extremely underrated. Most here forget to acknowledge it and tend to focus on the negative aspects like "OMG that pointless skill I never used is out".

 

[Dark Elf]

Yeah, I guess we all should just shut up and understand that less is more.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Its noteworthy that this guide was started by my good friend Raptormeat at Aldrien's chalice. He is now a Bethesda Dev. Yes, TES lore is fun, and surprisingly deep in its ambiguity. In the past there were great forum "dicusions" with developers impersonating in-game characters. It's indeed one of my favourite aspecst of the series.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I don't know. A relatively large lore and supporting aspects placed into a CRPG world are a nice touch but I don't find them an indication of excellence or superiority over other titles. There's no doubt examples in other RPGs where story designers didn't really need to go deep into the creation of the gameworld's lore, but it's there regardless. The Baldur's Gate series, Planescape: Torment, and the Fallout games managed to provide a compelling game experience without resorting too much to their own settings. Other than main points of interest, there were only a handful of aspects on each game that dwelled in its own lore, but it was never fully realized (especially with Baldur's Gate and Torment which never got very deeply in their lores).

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

TES lore is extremely underrated. Most here forget to acknowledge it and tend to focus on the negative aspects like "OMG that pointless skill I never used is out".

I see the lore as icing on the cake, an additional reason for me to immerse myself in the gameworld, but not an additional reason for me to play it. It's well developed, rich and vast, hands down. But knowing the names of all great heroes, the events behind House wars, and the journals of adventurers who explored lands which I can't visit in Elder Scrolls lore doesn't provide me with a reason to play. Since I care much more about game mechanics, most everything else becomes secondary. I can play a game without a story or extensive lore, but I can't play a game without the mechanics.

 

[Chefe]

Its noteworthy that this guide was started by my good friend Raptormeat at Aldrien's chalice. He is now a Bethesda Dev. Yes, TES lore is fun, and surprisingly deep in its ambiguity. In the past there were great forum "dicusions" with developers impersonating in-game characters. It's indeed one of my favourite aspecst of the series.

Yea, I've read those before.

Too bad that's gone forever, eh? Your little forum overrun by idiots, eh?
Well, Xbox'll do that do ya. Yep. Good ol' console gamers.

 

[Drakron]

Role-player you are a bit ... off.

BG was based around the Time of Troubles events were the patheon was altered, a lot of the game was build around existing FR lore.

PS:T design looks to be the setting basic design, the TNO story and its progression could not exist without it.

I agree lore does provide the little details that creates a world, if you pick JE you realize the game is empty, there is almost nothing outside the game story and that makes the game worst.

By itself lore does not make a game but allows the creation of a world, even if its just fluff.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Uh, I know Baldur's Gate used existing Forgotten Realms lore. Torment also used some. When I said "their own settings" I should have clarified a bit better the context, I guess.

Still the point is that all those games, especially Baldur's Gate and Torment had a very good amount of lore and backstory that is often mentioned but never really used much; and even without tapping deep into the setting's lore they managed to be good games.

 

[kathode]

And this is why I hope TES in future avoids going down the 'making everything metaphoric for human historical eras' path - the 'Cyrodiil is now Ancient Rome' thing. We need original, fantastical game worlds to flourish.

Someone's a Doug Goodall fan

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

And this is why I hope TES in future avoids going down the 'making everything metaphoric for human historical eras' path - the 'Cyrodiil is now Ancient Rome' thing. We need original, fantastical game worlds to flourish.

Someone's a Doug Goodall fan

Whats your take on his views in that interview? Or on the development of story and lore in general?

 

[Chefe]

Whats your take on his views in that interview? Or on the development of story and lore in general?

"We're not ready to talk about that yet. But trust us, our views are cool."

 

[Twinfalls]

Love it when you do that, Angler!

 

[Twinfalls]

Someone's a Doug Goodall fan

Yeah that's right, Kathode, it couldn't be because the criticism Goodall raises is obviously warranted, it's because I'm a 'Doug Goodall Fan'.

Bethesda Softworks - Where we Never Admit We're Wrong.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Sad thing is i actually collected all them weapons/armour and little maps and books that were dotted all over the game.

*loves junk*

 

[voodoo1man]

I agree, this is the best aspect of TES. It's the only thing that kept me playing through Morrowind. I haven't played Daggerfall yet, but after Morrowind it's been on my to-do list, again chiefly because of the TES mythology.

 

[Zli]

I agree, this is the best aspect of TES. It's the only thing that kept me playing through Morrowind. I haven't played Daggerfall yet, but after Morrowind it's been on my to-do list, again chiefly because of the TES mythology.

Well.... Morrowind's presentation of lore was much better and more consistent. But it's still the same lore, and DF's main quest is so much more involved than that Nerevarine crap, so I have no doubt you'll enjoy it. Just get the last patch (2.15, if I'm not mistaken) and use dosbox only as a last resort.

 

[Twinfalls]

I've kept ME on my machine, it runs very nicely - I use MoSlo with a setting of 55. The most noticeable problems if you don't use slowdown software are npcs flickering around, and you not being able to swim. I think it'd be worth setting up a 98 or ME partition to play it.

 

[Kamaz]

You may install VMWare - virtual machine on your Windows and launch there any OS at any time. I use it for some development (Windows/Linux) but it could be well used for old games, I guess.

 

[DarkSign]

I dont think lore is just the icing on the cake or pages and pages of writing that serve no purpose.

On the contrary, its evidence that the devs have not only worked through the details of the game that get put into models, but that they understand the soul of characters and civilizations that they are basing your gameplay around.

That may sound a bit naive, but if suddenly there was a Wookie crossbow gun inside a Star Trek game it wouldnt make sense and could throw the gameplay out of balance. Strange example but hopefully you see where Im going - i.e. that working out the details in words probably means the gameplay has the same cohesiveness.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I dont think lore is just the icing on the cake or pages and pages of writing that serve no purpose.

Note that I didn't said they have no purpose. They serve to branch out the details of the gameworld and associated lore. I just don't find them terribly necessary.

On the contrary, its evidence that the devs have not only worked through the details of the game that get put into models, but that they understand the soul of characters and civilizations that they are basing your gameplay around.

This assumes that the intrincacies of a gameworld's lore have an impact in my gameplay but this isn't necessarily the case. How many books in Morrowind that deal with adventures of explorers influence how you play? For the most part the distant events that eventually helped create and shape the whole set of places and people in Morrowind are beyond your grasp or effect. Knowing who Sotha-Sil (I may have fudged the spelling there) was and what the character contributed to the gameworld is nice but not knowing it will not alter your gameplay in any way; much like knowing or not knowing who were the first people responsible for developing the automobile will not change how you effectively drive said automobile.

Unless we're talking of characters or situations which are important to the current story your character is involved in (such as Vivec and the legends of the Nerevarine) most everything else does not influence gameplay.

That may sound a bit naive, but if suddenly there was a Wookie crossbow gun inside a Star Trek game it wouldnt make sense and could throw the gameplay out of balance. Strange example but hopefully you see where Im going - i.e. that working out the details in words probably means the gameplay has the same cohesiveness.

Creating an extensive set of supporting details for peripheric elements of the game's story and lore is not the same as creating consistency between all those details (ie, Fallout Tactics is set upon the lenghtly, fleshed out lore of Fallout and it still contradicts it in some situations), and cohesive gameplay is not a reflex of it either (ie, Lionheart had a good and detailed gameworld and lore and there was clearly no level of commitment to making its gameplay shine as much as the lore).

 

[Psilon]

You may install VMWare - virtual machine on your Windows and launch there any OS at any time. I use it for some development (Windows/Linux) but it could be well used for old games, I guess.

Not so well, actually. VMware emulates a PCI sound card without DOS drivers, thus making a straight MS-DOS VM mute. Plus, the clock speed of the emulated processor is much higher than is safe for old games like Daggerfall.

Use Bochs or DosBox unless you've got really weird hardware emulation requirements.