A great example of why TES matters

[Chefe]

I also agree with everything on your list except the above item TF. Label me an idiot but I kind of like the Greco/Roman flavor of the Imperials.

Same here, I don't see why people are complaining about the lore. I have no doubt the lore will be excellent, and I love the Roman stylings on the Imperials.

*shudders* LOR clichés

That would be a very bad thing.

 

[voodoo1man]

Must... resist... styrofome... sword...

Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I also agree with everything on your list except the above item TF. Label me an idiot but I kind of like the Greco/Roman flavor of the Imperials.

So long as they don't tip the scales by making everything parallel real world history or *shudders* LOR clichés, I'm okay with it.

Hey, that's not nearly as bad as what Fallout 2 did to Fallout with the talking deathclaws, super smart [insert any critter from FO here], supermutant baby making(which is awesome considering one way to beat the Master was to prove supermutants can't breed), and so forth.

Or how about FOT's mysterious uber vault that was the hub of all vault communications that was never even mentioned in either Fallout RPG? You'd think that place would be one stop shopping for water chips and GECKs. And think of all those poor, lonely centaurs and floaters that the Master's Army left behind at the Rocky Mountains when they moved in to the Great Plains.

Then there's the console game Interplay churned out as it's last death throw. There's a few pages of shit there.

Yeah, it's a bitch when developers fuck up the setting. Trust me on this, most Fallout fans sympathize when it comes to that. Really, we can't wait for Bethesda to fuck it up even more!

 

[match000]

Or how about FOT's mysterious uber vault that was the hub of all vault communications that was never even mentioned in either Fallout RPG? You'd think that place would be one stop shopping for water chips and GECKs. And think of all those poor, lonely centaurs and floaters that the Master's Army left behind at the Rocky Mountains when they moved in to the Great Plains.

Then there's the console game Interplay churned out as it's last death throw. There's a few pages of shit there.

Yeah, it's a bitch when developers fuck up the setting. Trust me on this, most Fallout fans sympathize when it comes to that. Really, we can't wait for Bethesda to fuck it up even more!

Well, speaking of uber vaults, do you know about the uber vault in Ultima 7 The Black Gate. Its where in Trinsic you stack the crates so high that you can walk onto the ceiling of the creepy Blacksmith building, then walk behind teh chimney, and voila, super vault of item goodness and quick travel..

Of course, thats a secret, so it doesnt count as a reason why Oblivion needs fast travel (which isnt a secret in Oblivion).

Time and time again, Ultima 7 proves superior to all other CRPG's. I doubt in Oblivion you can do cool fun stuff like stack crates to find secrets, "Hoes of Destruction", command boats, carriages, and slaughter everyone (including children). In U7 you could murder the mint-keeper in her sleep, steal the keys, then rob the mint To be extra stealthy in the murder, you should close the windows first..

And I remember just to make up my guilty conscience I dragged her body to the King and had him revive her.

 

[Twinfalls]

Tintin, now Twinfalls. I think all our T users fell out of the same idiot tree.

Gee, what a creative metaphor. I bow before your Power of Prose.

The TES store of artwork and lore is surely relatively impressive in the world of CRPGs.
[TES Lore is really cool in that no Lore from any other computer role-playing game even comes anywhere close to matching it in terms of detail and information.]

Yes, that's right. 'relatively impressive'=='far greater than everything else.' Welcome to DarkUnderlord world, where anything can mean whatever he says! He's just like that kid in the Twilight Zone..... spoooooky......

You also conveniently ignore the obvious reason for my maintaining that it is something impressive. It's in response to a complete dismissal, the 'meh, it's nothing, here - fallout.'

Please, explain to me how that page is any different from what you've pointed to (and saying "Wiki" doesn't count). If the format bothers you so much, I can save it as a static html page and put it up somewhere else if you like.

It's a wiki. Go on, make it just like the other page, and then we'll talk some more.

Yeah, I was backing up Saint. I read your first post and though "Meh" and then read that post, interpreted it the way I did and responded to that with why I believe you're wrong in that case. Hell, even in your original post you've got a bit on the end asking for Lore from other games.

...

But oh wait, you're not enjoying that are you? In some bizarre way it's not the same. After asking for it, you can't even bring yourself to admit that "Hey, that is pretty cool Lore actually.

Yes. I didn't say to you or Saint 'Hey that's pretty cool'. Why? Well, once again:

Because your responses didn't invite it.

Saint's response was 'Meh'. Yours was 'Meh+Fallout'. Hell, you've just admitted that above.

But you can't understand this. And since you've decided to start flaming over your impossibly petty complaint, let me tell you why that is.

You are an idiot. Actually, you're something more than a mere idiot. There is a wilfulness to your stupidity, evidence of an even deeper idiocy. You are a Meta-Idiot. Both the motive and the means you employ stem from sheer idiotude. Stupidity squared.

And those pages are at...
[Sarcastic, those pages don't exist. Why would anyone be bothered making similar pages for another computer game? It just doesn't make sense. Go on, prove me wrong. Show those pages to me. I dares ya.]

None of the actual content is fan-made here, just the summation and organisation.
[Anything else you come up with is going to be fan made content that's made up and not actual info simply compiled from details found in the game. Otherwise, why would I mention this? I don't believe similar pages exist for any other game.]
...blah..blah....

Wow. So you're telepathic as well. The world's first Mind-Reading Meta-Idiot.
Here, since you're a mind-reader, there's no need for me to respond in writing. I'll just think my reply to you, how's that. *presses hand to head*
I'm thinking..... can you tell what I'm thinking? .......nanoo-nanaa..... Correct! Well done!

I was thinking that you're an idiot. Bravo!

 

[Twinfalls]

I also agree with everything on your list except the above item TF. Label me an idiot but I kind of like the Greco/Roman flavor of the Imperials.

Same here, I don't see why people are complaining about the lore. I have no doubt the lore will be excellent, and I love the Roman stylings on the Imperials.

You didn't find the whole 'Gluteus Maximus' Imperial names somewhat annoying? Well, we differ.

On the whole, Morrowind's lore was excellent. In fact, one other worrying aspect of Oblivion is the way, from all appearances, it seems to have lost the one really cool thing about MW - the uniqueness and alien-ness of its styling. Fair enough if that many people wanted more 'traditional' fantasy, but everything so far looks 'recognisable'. There are big Greco-Roman columns and shit (see the preview) and, most probably, none of the 'alien' Cyrodiil that Doug Goodall pointed out. (Note for MSFD, I couldn't care if he said that out of bitterness, it's not relevant).

 

[Athame]

'Gluteus Maximus'

Bwahaha! You're positively scintillating, m8!

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Regardless of which is more extensive, both pages are evidence of love by the fans of both games. Discriminating one over it's format is pretty inane, though. A page by fans is very much the same as a wiki by fans.

 

[Twinfalls]

Well , there's a shitload more art, and more effort made to make it an 'archaelogy digest essay' in the way it reads.

But really, yes, yes yes, of course they're essentially the bloody same. It's an inane response to an inane 'meh that's nothing' response (which wasn't inane to begin with?).
But thanks for trying.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

So your main complaint is that the page which presents TES lore is better than the Fallout wiki because it attempts to pass off its information under the guise of a fake archaeologist essay. Which would be valid, except that the presentation matters little to nothing when its the content that's being judged.

 

[Twinfalls]

Wrong.

The presentation is the content, insofar as one is making the point that the effort put into the page demonstrates the importance of the subject matter to its fans, and hence the loss if the subject matter is treated with commercially-motivated disdain. Notice the headiing of the thread. I have already stated that I do not consider one to be 'better' than the other, and that those specific responses of mine which would imply such, and therefore drew ire from DU, were made in the context of (his and and another's) prior comments which effectively served to treat both the topic and the page in question with complete disdain.

 

[Drakron]

The Imperials=romans was long ago made a connection, read Daggerfall lore to see it.

The thing some people are bitching about comes from Redguard, they made the Imperials roman like in that game to the point we now are, Morrowind did NOT.

Why people rather forget that after Daggerfall we had Redguard and Battlespire before Morrowind come out?

Morrowind greatly expanded in dark elves culture and history, I like what they did and it shows a great deal of work.

As for Oblivion ... it was set long ago parts of it in Redguard (in "Pocket guide to the Empire" that come with it) so everyone that argues about how Cyrodiil sould be alien is a idiot, it was set that it was a elven kindom that had a slave (made of humans) rebelion that overthrown the elves.

Only thing "alien" there sould be the White Tower (since its predates the elves arrival).

 

[Twinfalls]

NB "Alien" as in unique, outlandish in look, and not based overtly on Earth history - rather than 'of another planet'.

So the pocket guide draws a picture of Cyrodill that is styled on Ancient Rome, and Cyrodiilians as having Roman names? It's been so long since I played Redguard that I cannot remember.

That would mean Goodall was completely wrong in his recollection of the pocket guide, then.

I myself am no expert whatsoever on TES lore. I simply recall finding the repetitive and overtly Roman Imperial names distracting - Processus Vitellius, etc etc. When reading Goodall's interview, I assumed he was talking accurately when saying this was a change made to previous lore by Rolston et al.

So if that's wrong, then I take back every criticism I made on the 'Rome=lore change' basis.

Nonetheless, the other criticisms levelled in his interview stand up very well, as they are game-related not lore related, and are basically what everyone else has been complaining about since Morrowind.

 

[Chefe]

What the fuck is wrong with using Wiki?

TIL should use Wiki, it'd make things alot easier.

 

[Twinfalls]

THERE'S NOTHING 'WRONG' WITH WIKI.

Who said otherwise?

 

[Chefe]

You... apparently.

You've stated 'that wiki is the same as the page I linked to'. What the hell are you talking about? It's a wiki. It's not the same

Have a look at that page. It is not a wiki. Therefore you are wrong.

It's a wiki. Go on, make it just like the other page, and then we'll talk some more.

 

[Twinfalls]

Okay, we're all on planet stupid today. 'Different' does not mean 'wrong'. That is, there is nothing inherently 'wrong' with wiki. I happen to like the format of the Dwemer page more. Okay?

And don't bother re-quoting unless you reproduce the entire context of the argument with DU.

 

[Chefe]

Okay, we're all on planet stupid today. 'Different' does not mean 'wrong'. That is, there is nothing inherently 'wrong' with wiki. I happen to like the format of the Dwemer page more. Okay?

Okay, so we've established that you don't care about the format contrary to what you already said. Whatever. So, why is Fallout's lore not up to snuff with the Elder Scrolls?

And don't bother re-quoting unless you reproduce the entire context of the argument with DU.

Why the hell would I repost the entire post? I'm assuming that if someone is smart enough to sign up for a forum they'd be smart enough to use the back button.

 

[Twinfalls]

Okay, so we've established that you don't care about the format contrary to what you already said. Whatever. So, why is Fallout's lore not up to snuff with the Elder Scrolls?

What, contrary to what I said just a few posts up?

Hate to have to quote myself, but:

Wrong.

The presentation is the content, insofar as one is making the point that the effort put into the page demonstrates the importance of the subject matter to its fans, and hence the loss if the subject matter is treated with commercially-motivated disdain. Notice the headiing of the thread. I have already stated that I do not consider one to be 'better' than the other, and that those specific responses of mine which would imply such, and therefore drew ire from DU, were made in the context of (his and and another's) prior comments which effectively served to treat both the topic and the page in question with complete disdain.

Or can't you read and understand that, Chefe?

And don't try to bait me into saying 'Fallout lore is worse than TES'. I've only repeated about a million times that I haven't been saying that.

Your efforts to suck up to DU here are pathetic, Chefe. Stop insinuating yourself into this discussion if you're too stupid to do so with any benefit. Go to bed or something.

Edit: sorry about the flames - and the same to DU. I'm just getting a bit exasperated at having to repeat myself endlessly on this thread, while people keep hammering on this petty side-argument. Perhaps this one's best left to die.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Edit: sorry about the flames

Um.. Why? No one here cares if you flame someone.

 

[Drakron]

NB "Alien" as in unique, outlandish in look, and not based overtly on Earth history - rather than 'of another planet'.

So what?

You dont have Ceaser or the Senate in the empir.

So the pocket guide draws a picture of Cyrodill that is styled on Ancient Rome, and Cyrodiilians as having Roman names? It's been so long since I played Redguard that I cannot remember.

http://til.gamingsource.net/pge/

You can read it yourself.

As for names ... Tiber Septim and Zurin Arctus are from what games?

Yes there are a lot of non roman names in persons that are Imperials ( Amiel Richton was the governor name in Redguard) but they existed before.

That would mean Goodall was completely wrong in his recollection of the pocket guide, then.

I guess he is, note that the city was descrived to some point in the guide but not to great lenghts (also the guide damn old since it was written at Redguard time and we are close to the end of the 3rd age).

Another thing, Morrowind provice was suppose to be alien even to the rest Tarmiel, Oblivion sould NOT mimic Morrowind theme since its sould be similar the rest of the Tarmiel.

I myself am no expert whatsoever on TES lore. I simply recall finding the repetitive and overtly Roman Imperial names distracting - Processus Vitellius, etc etc. When reading Goodall's interview, I assumed he was talking accurately when saying this was a change made to previous lore by Rolston et al.

Yes, there was no naming convention to Imperials but the roman theme was present ... I think he is against the new naming system, I agree to a point.

So if that's wrong, then I take back every criticism I made on the 'Rome=lore change' basis.

There is still no goverment rule as Rome, you dont have a Ceaser and you dont have a Senate, if they done that we could say they are making it Rome but since the only thing is naming conventions that comes from latin ...

I am actually more afraid they will fuck up the Draedra and Oblivion making Draedra=demons and Oblivion=Hell by some comments being made, also I dont get the whole "gates of Oblivion" and its connection to the Emperor since we only HAVE a Empire in the 3rd Era and so we have about 3000 years were there was no Tiber Septim line.

Nonetheless, the other criticisms levelled in his interview stand up very well, as they are game-related not lore related, and are basically what everyone else has been complaining about since Morrowind.

Yes, that I agree but lore is always interpetration ... he wanted a direction as they wanted another.

 

[Chefe]

stuff

1. It's nice that you try and use elaborate words to make yourself seem smart. It feels funny to help you understand what you posted, but anyways you're saying that the Fallout fans didn't put as much effort into the page as the TES fans did. That essentially means you don't like the wiki, as does what you've said before. You prefer, and essentially think the better of, the Imperial Library. What has been pointed out to you is that how the information is presented isn't of importance, whether it's Wiki or just plain HTML, it's what the information is that counts.

2. Why would I bait you into saying Fallout lore is worse than TES lore? I like TES lore, and know almost nothing of Fallout lore. Where did I imply I was trying to "bait" you at all?

3. Why the fuck would I try and suck up to someone who I know nothing about other than he has a cow in his avatar? When did I ever imply in any way, shape, or form that I'm trying to suck up to DU? That's an incredibly dumb insult to try and put across. Do you even read what you post?

4. I'm not "insinuating myself into the conversation". I'm asking a question.

5. Go to bed? You're silly. Wouldn't it have been "cooler" to say Go crawl in a hole and die?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

The presentation is the content, insofar as one is making the point that the effort put into the page demonstrates the importance of the subject matter to its fans,

Just as the effort put into the wiki demonstrates how important the subject matter is to Fallout fans that contributed to it.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

I think it'd be a great idea to convert TIL over to a Wiki.

 

[Chefe]

I think it'd be a great idea to convert TIL over to a Wiki.

No! That's unthinkable! Better organization and a better search feature??

Shusshhh! Twinfalls might hear you! He won't but Oblivion!!


In related Elder Scrolls pages-with-lots-o-info News, UESP.net is converting to Wiki. The organization in the new version is wild.