A great example of why TES matters

[Saint_Proverbius]

Creating an extensive set of supporting details for peripheric elements of the game's story and lore is not the same as creating consistency between all those details (ie, Fallout Tactics is set upon the lenghtly, fleshed out lore of Fallout and it still contradicts it in some situations), and cohesive gameplay is not a reflex of it either (ie, Lionheart had a good and detailed gameworld and lore and there was clearly no level of commitment to making its gameplay shine as much as the lore).

Fallout Tactics kind of shit all over the consistancy with the Fallout setting in favor of a whole bunch of "Wouldn't it be kewl if.." things. Gas powered cars that were completely out of the setting, Supermutants holing up in a working oil refinery, mostly real world weapons without any of the atypical Fallout weapons, and so forth. The designers thought these things would be cool so they added them without paying much attention to the setting from Fallout and Fallout 2.

 

[bryce777]

A good mythos does not a good game make, or else every star trek game would totally rock.

Also, if games truly 'matter' to you, you probably need to step away from the computer...you are getting dangerously close to LARPing territory, son!

 

[Chefe]

Must... resist... styrofome... sword...

 

[VisPater]

For those looking to install Daggerfall:
You might try DFInstall as an alternative to using DOS emulation software.
The only problem I've had so far is sound studdering during the cut-screens, though it may only be a problem on my end.

 

[Twinfalls]

A good mythos does not a good game make, or else every star trek game would totally rock.

Also, if games truly 'matter' to you, you probably need to step away from the computer...you are getting dangerously close to LARPing territory, son!

No-one, least of all me, is saying good lore == good game. I'm simply saying that TES lore is extremely good and very rare in the world of crpgs, and ought to be recognised as such.

As for 'matter', TES matters in the world of CRPGs, because despite the shitty direction Todd and Ken et al have taken the actual game design, the store of lore and art is such that the complete dumbing down of the series would be a great loss to CRPG gamers.

Fear not for me, my friend, there is no danger of me going LARP - I'm more likely to take up playing the harp.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

You can do that with nearly any CRPG that has a bit of info to discover, though. You could make a page like that devoted to Fallout's ghouls or Geneforge's servile factions or Prelude to Darkness's River Folk.

And those pages are at...

http://vault.duckandcover.cx

None of the actual content is fan-made there, just the summation and organisation.

The TES store of artwork and lore is surely relatively impressive in the world of CRPGs.

Lore is good but I don't think TES has some kind of market on that. Any game with enough sequels (Ultima, Fallout) has plenty of info in it for a crazy fan with lots of time to combine into some kind of article on it all. Morrowind simply has more pretty pictures.

Speaking of which, what happened to that language thing where that guy was hired just to create languages? That was for Oblivion wasn't it?

 

[Twinfalls]

You can do that with nearly any CRPG that has a bit of info to discover, though. You could make a page like that devoted to Fallout's ghouls or Geneforge's servile factions or Prelude to Darkness's River Folk.

And those pages are at...

http://vault.duckandcover.cx

That wiki is not the same kind of thing as the page I mentioned:

http://til.gamingsource.net/dwemer/

You guys are really something. All I post up is "TES lore is something really good" and all too predictably come the "meh, Fallout" responses.

Let me just put it a little more simply:

TES lore is great.
It is not the only crpg lore out there.
Others may also be great.
I like TES lore.
I think it's rather special.
I think the page above demonstrates this.
Great lore DOES NOT EQUAL A GREAT GAME.
Nonetheless, TES lore is great.

And the point of saying TES lore is great is that it is a very good reason for why dumbing TES down is a bad thing.

 

[The_Good_Doctor]

And this is why I hope TES in future avoids going down the 'making everything metaphoric for human historical eras' path - the 'Cyrodiil is now Ancient Rome' thing. We need original, fantastical game worlds to flourish.

This might be a diversion from the topic at hand as it simply focuses on one small aspect of the OPs thesis, oh well. I think the reason they deviated from the outlandish look of Morrowind and went with a more familiar and peaceful setting for the mainland of Cyrodil was so there would be an extremely stark contrast between it and the plains of Oblivion. If Oblivion is truely "out there" and nightmarish I think the pastoral familiarity of Cyrodil will be a particularly apt stroke. Also when the Daedra invade and everything falls to shit you'll have a similar sense of loss when you see the ruins because you'll have the historical tie to the fall of Rome to mirror it's importance.

Edit: I too will miss the great design of Morrowind and hope the next installment of the series tries to create an "orignal, fantastic gameworld." Hopefully Oblivion itself will not disappoint.

 

[Twinfalls]

TGD - It's more the change of Cyrodiilians into such obvious Romans. When I first Played Morrowind, I thought 'what's up with the overt Roman theme of the Imperials, their un-original dress and those names" (oh god the names. Felt like playing Asterix comics, only those were at least taking the Mickey).

Recently, reading Doug Goodall's interview made it clear.

http://til.gamingsource.net/interviews/ ... dall.shtml

It was a Ken Rolston decision to make them Romans. I wasn't alone in noticing that it felt a bit silly - one of the ex-devs had protested about it!

I agree with you though that overall, Morrowind had a great, unique style to it.

 

[Jaesun]

Speaking of which, what happened to that language thing where that guy was hired just to create languages? That was for Oblivion wasn't it?

Bioware's Dragon Age. Not Oblivion.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You guys are really something. All I post up is "TES lore is something really good" and all too predictably come the "meh, Fallout" responses.

Actually, I listed a number of games you could do the same sort of thing with. Sure, Fallout was one of them. However, you could do the same thing with the others I mentioned. The Taker faction in Geneforge could easily have a few pages written about it spanning both Geneforge and Geneforge 2 with their history and their culture. There was more than enough background written in both those two games given what they claim and what they said to influence your characters. There is also the matters of the tasks the leaders of the factions asked you to do as well as the lowly Takers' sidequests and other things they were dinking around with. The same thing goes for The Awakenned faction.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

one of the ex-devs had protested about it!

Very ex -- he only worked for Bethesda for roughly 16 months, and left 3 and a half years ago.

 

[Twinfalls]

Yes, but the points he made are very, very valid, non?

 

[Twinfalls]

You guys are really something. All I post up is "TES lore is something really good" and all too predictably come the "meh, Fallout" responses.

Actually, I listed a number of games you could do the same sort of thing with. Sure, Fallout was one of them. However, you could do the same thing with the others I mentioned. The Taker faction in Geneforge could easily have a few pages written about it spanning both Geneforge and Geneforge 2 with their history and their culture. There was more than enough background written in both those two games given what they claim and what they said to influence your characters. There is also the matters of the tasks the leaders of the factions asked you to do as well as the lowly Takers' sidequests and other things they were dinking around with. The same thing goes for The Awakenned faction.

Okay, fair enough - you didn't just say Fallout.

But your main point appears to be 'well, there's that lore-page, but so what? It could be done for other games too'. To which I can only re-iterate:

I simply think TES lore is good and special, and I like it. (Notice I did not say 'it's the only one'.) And I maintain that Dwemer page is very impressive of itself, but also highlights how TES lore is good and special, regardless of whether it 'could be done' for umpteen other games, too.

 

[Drakron]

Just wait until is dumb down to the masses ... it will stop being special.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

Yes, but the points he made are very, very valid, non?

No, I don't think so. I think you're just latching on to him because he's speaking out against Bethesda's practices, and you're not realizing that he's really speaking out of bitterness over not being able to change things to the way HE wanted them.

 

[Twinfalls]

I'll be honest, MSFD: I am latching onto him because he has perfectly articulated almost every single reason I was so disappointed with Morrowind.

In the order in which he raises them:

1. Jettisoning procedural quests and game-world;
2. Poor, inchoate MQ (to which I'd add cliched - 'you are the chosen one');
3. Discarding of analogue combat;
4. Wiki dialogue depriving the player of any real character role-play and development;
5. Lack of interesting NPC characters;
6. Turning Cyrodiilians into Romans (ie contradicting lore, moving away from original fantasy.)

To which I would add removal of skills and factions, and discarding of multiple MQ paths and multiple resolutions.

Notice I did not focus on his disagreements with Ken or anyone else. The list above stands up regardless of the rights/wrongs/history of his personal interactions with others, or his motivation in speaking. That stuff is not relevant here, MSFD, and your focus on that strikes me as a red herring.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

No, I don't think so. I think you're just latching on to him because he's speaking out against Bethesda's practices, and you're not realizing that he's really speaking out of bitterness over not being able to change things to the way HE wanted them.

He doesn't sound bitter to me. In fact, in a lot of cases, he sounds about right. He's pretty much echoing a lot of what I've said on this very forum about Morrowind and that's the first I've seen of that interview.

Yes, I think ditching the randomly generated stuff in Morrowind was mistake. I've said this since Morrowind was released. I've even said more games need to use randomly generated events and areas. It seems rather strange to me that Bethesda is moving away from things like that because of some complaints about Daggerfall when randomized areas and quests have cropped up in other games with more successful results.

He also mentions dialogue trees allowing you to connect more with your character. This has been mentioned numerous times since Morrowind came out. He's absolutely right, that's one positive of the dialogue tree. Being able to pick a topic is dull as dirt. Being able to rely a query or statement about that topic in a number of different ways is a hell of a lot more meaningful to a player with regard to his character.

Also, I totally disagree with the stance about NPCs lying to a player or betraying a player. If an NPC is a liar, he has to nearly always lie? That's Bethesda's design rule? That's totally gay, MSFD. You want to know what gives NPCs depth? The fact they'll be totally honest about some things but not other things! You know, like real people! No one out there is totally dishonest(unless their last name is Clinton) nor are people totally truthful. You want to make NPCs with depth, add dialogue trees and forget the bullshit about NPCs that are either totally honest about everything or mostly lie about everything. Have some NPCs have that one little thing they either can't or won't admit, something they'll lie about to keep you from finding out. That adds mystery and makes characters memorable.

 

[truekaiser]

You may install VMWare - virtual machine on your Windows and launch there any OS at any time. I use it for some development (Windows/Linux) but it could be well used for old games, I guess.

Not so well, actually. VMware emulates a PCI sound card without DOS drivers, thus making a straight MS-DOS VM mute. Plus, the clock speed of the emulated processor is much higher than is safe for old games like Daggerfall.

Use Bochs or DosBox unless you've got really weird hardware emulation requirements.

i got it working pretty well under dosbox.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

That wiki is not the same kind of thing as the page I mentioned:

http://til.gamingsource.net/dwemer/

Sure it is. There are articles in there about Mutations in the Fallout world, Ghouls and all sorts. Even a timeline. Everything your single page article has about Dwemer, the wiki has in spades about everything Fallout. All information gathered by fans from the computer games and put into a single source. Stop trying to presume that only TES lore allows such fan articles to be written.

All I post up is "TES lore is something really good" and all too predictably come the "meh, Fallout" responses.

No, you posted:

And those pages are at...

And:

The TES store of artwork and lore is surely relatively impressive in the world of CRPGs.

Which implies to me that:

1. It's hardly a ""Cool. Where are those pages?" response.
2. You don't believe such pages for other games exist.
3. TES Lore > Lore found in other CRPGs, relatively speaking.

All Saint and I did was point those pages out to you and that TES Lore doesn't stand alone (like you claimed) in the fact that it has some really great Lore and now what are you doing?

You're complaining saying "Noez! TES LORE!! TES LORE!! That not same as TES LORE!". Pull the carrot out of your arse and read what you're writing. If you had said what you claim to have said and only that (IE "Gee, TES Lore is great innit?"), you'd be fine. Instead, everything you've posted implies that ONLY TES LORE can have pages of information like that Dwemer page and further more, that similar pages from other CRPGs simply aren't anywhere near as possible. We're merely pointing out that other games have it too. I used Fallout as the example because well, hey, I'm a Fallout fan aren't I? What am I gonna do, post lore pages I don't know about from games I've never played?

And yes, that stuff is important.

 

[Twinfalls]

That wiki is not the same kind of thing as the page I mentioned:

http://til.gamingsource.net/dwemer/

Sure it is. There are articles in there about Mutations in the Fallout world, Ghouls and all sorts. Even a timeline. Everything your single page article has about Dwemer, the wiki has in spades about everything Fallout. All information gathered by fans from the computer games and put into a single source. Stop trying to presume that only TES lore allows such fan articles to be written.

All I post up is "TES lore is something really good" and all too predictably come the "meh, Fallout" responses.

No, you posted:

And those pages are at...

And:

The TES store of artwork and lore is surely relatively impressive in the world of CRPGs.

Which implies to me that:
1. It's hardly a ""Cool. Where are those pages?" response.
2. You don't believe such pages for other games exist.
3. TES Lore > Lore found in other CRPGs, relatively speaking.
All Saint and I did was point those pages out to you and that TES Lore doesn't stand alone (like you claimed) in the fact that it has some really great Lore and now what are you doing?

You're complaining saying "Noez! TES LORE!! TES LORE!! That not same as TES LORE!". Pull the carrot out of your arse and read what you're writing. If you had said what you claim to have said and only that (IE "Gee, TES Lore is great innit?"), you'd be fine. Instead, everything you've posted implies that ONLY TES LORE can have pages of information like that Dwemer page and further more, that similar pages from other CRPGs simply aren't anywhere near as possible. We're merely pointing out that other games have it too. I used Fallout as the example because well, hey, I'm a Fallout fan aren't I? What am I gonna do, post lore pages I don't know about from games I've never played?

And yes, that stuff is important.

Top marks for trying to wear the Hat of Pretentious Pedantry, but guess what, DU? You're completely wrong. Here's why.

You've stated 'that wiki is the same as the page I linked to'. What the hell are you talking about? It's a wiki. It's not the same.

Here. Here's how I described the Dwemer page:

...click on some of the artwork, observe how cohesively and thoughtfully it's all been put together.

I really think this is stunning. Put together completely by fans, it is like an article from National Geographic of old, like a museum essay on the Aztecs. Look at the artwork for the Dwemer weapons. Wonderful.

Have a look at that page. It is not a wiki. Therefore you are wrong.

Am I saying that Fallout wiki is no good? NO. Am I saying the Fallout Lore contained in that wiki isn't every bit as good as any TES lore? NO. Am I saying the work put in by Fallout fans for that Wiki isn't as hard as TES fans put into anything? NO.

But it's not the same. Not the same according to my description, which is the relevant one, since it's what I raised and what you responded to.

The TES store of artwork and lore is surely relatively impressive in the world of CRPGs.

Which implies to me that:
1. It's hardly a ""Cool. Where are those pages?" response.
2. You don't believe such pages for other games exist.

Oh give me a break. What a blatant freaking double standard. Yes, my response was not a "Cool, where are those pages". Why? Because Yours and Saints responses were not a "Cool nice page, here are some others like it". Saint's response was simply "meh, you can do that with tons of other games". And yours just sought to back that up. Why in the hell would I respond with 'yeah, cool, blah'? What the fuck do you take me for, some kind of weed-addled hippy push-over?

It is completely untrue that I can enjoy pages such as that only if they are TES related. I shouldn't have to mention that, for it would be simply bizarre.

The TES store of artwork and lore is surely relatively impressive in the world of CRPGs.

Which implies to me that:
...

3. TES Lore > Lore found in other CRPGs, relatively speaking.

How on Earth does 3. follow from what you just quoted me saying? On what planet does "relatively impressive" mean "better than everything else" ???? ??!??

All Saint and I did was point those pages out to you and that TES Lore doesn't stand alone (like you claimed)

Where did I claim this? Go on, back that up - quote me.

You're complaining saying "Noez! TES LORE!! TES LORE!! That not same as TES LORE!". Pull the carrot out of your arse and read what you're writing. If you had said what you claim to have said and only that (IE "Gee, TES Lore is great innit?"), you'd be fine. Instead, everything you've posted implies that ONLY TES LORE can have pages of information like that Dwemer page and further more, that similar pages from other CRPGs simply aren't anywhere near as possible. We're merely pointing out that other games have it too. I used Fallout as the example because well, hey, I'm a Fallout fan aren't I? What am I gonna do, post lore pages I don't know about from games I've never played?

Yeah, turn it up mate. What a load of bulldust.

You and Saint have not "merely pointed out that other games have it too." Why? Because at no point in my initial post did I imply that wasn't the case. (go on, show me where I did). Instead, the very clearly implication you both make is "That's nothing special, nothing you said about that page being impressive, nothing about the artwork and history suggesting TES lore is indeed a good thing, matters. Therefore, we will say just 'others have that too'".

It's got 'Meh' written all over it.

Which is a reply to a point only you (and Saint) implied. Where in my original post did I say that other lore is incapable of generating that kind of page?

You've just claimed I said 'Oh noez, only TES lore, TES lore'. Quote me saying that, DU.

You are basically suggesting someone can't say 'This stuff is great and deserves recognition on its own merit' without neccessarily saying 'It's the only stuff like that'. Blind Freddy can see what rubbish that is.

 

[Chefe]

Come on scouts! Can't we all just get along?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well, there are two ways to take your original post. The way I took it was that TES is special because it has a degree of depth to it's lore about groups of people that exist in the game. It's really not special because there are any number of CRPGs that establish detailed histories and cultural examples of the groups of people in the setting. Really, that's what CRPGs *should* do because without history of cultures, there's no relevence in interacting with them.

Arcanum did a bang up job of displaying cultural identities within it's setting as well as portraying certain religious aspects of the world. They even made a nifty miniquest that takes place all over the world involving the dieties of the world.

However, I think your point is that TES lore is special but you don't really like the changes Bethesda is making with the world such as the Roman stuff. Right?

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Tintin, now Twinfalls. I think all our T users fell out of the same idiot tree.

You can do that with nearly any CRPG that has a bit of info to discover, though. You could make a page like that devoted to Fallout's ghouls or Geneforge's servile factions or Prelude to Darkness's River Folk.

And those pages are at...
[Sarcastic, those pages don't exist. Why would anyone be bothered making similar pages for another computer game? It just doesn't make sense. Go on, prove me wrong. Show those pages to me. I dares ya.]

None of the actual content is fan-made here, just the summation and organisation.
[Anything else you come up with is going to be fan made content that's made up and not actual info simply compiled from details found in the game. Otherwise, why would I mention this? I don't believe similar pages exist for any other game.]

The TES store of artwork and lore is surely relatively impressive in the world of CRPGs.
[TES Lore is really cool in that no Lore from any other computer role-playing game even comes anywhere close to matching it in terms of detail and information.]

That's what I responded to.

On what planet does "relatively impressive" mean "better than everything else" ???? ??!??

Relatively Impressive: When compared to Lore from other games, TES has more info and more detail. Therefore it is better ("superior to the average") than other Lore. On the whole, other Lore doesn't have as much info and detail as TES Lore.

If not, then what the hell do you think you're saying by using the phrase "relatively impressive"? You just throw words around 'cause you feel like it, eh?

Yeah, I was backing up Saint. I read your first post and though "Meh" and then read that post, interpreted it the way I did and responded to that with why I believe you're wrong in that case. Hell, even in your original post you've got a bit on the end asking for Lore from other games.

Once again, here's Fallout's Lore: http://vault.duckandcover.cx/ Enjoy!

But oh wait, you're not enjoying that are you? In some bizarre way it's not the same. After asking for it, you can't even bring yourself to admit that "Hey, that is pretty cool Lore actually. Though not the same because ... (here are a bunch of reasons why it's different other than 'it's a wiki' - which is only a format issue)" When you do try and bring up reasons...

You've stated 'that wiki is the same as the page I linked to'. What the hell are you talking about? It's a wiki. It's not the same.

Here. Here's how I described the Dwemer page:

...click on some of the artwork, observe how cohesively and thoughtfully it's all been put together.

I really think this is stunning. Put together completely by fans, it is like an article from National Geographic of old, like a museum essay on the Aztecs. Look at the artwork for the Dwemer weapons. Wonderful.

Mutations and their causes

One single page from the Vault, the Fallout Encyclopedia.

I really think this is stunning. Put together completely by fans, it is like an article from National Geographic of old, like a museum essay on the Aztecs. Look at the artwork. Wonderful.

Please, explain to me how that page is any different from what you've pointed to (and saying "Wiki" doesn't count). If the format bothers you so much, I can save it as a static html page and put it up somewhere else if you like.

 

[Athame]

Turning Cyrodiilians into Romans (ie contradicting lore, moving away from original fantasy.)

I also agree with everything on your list except the above item TF. Label me an idiot but I kind of like the Greco/Roman flavor of the Imperials.

So long as they don't tip the scales by making everything parallel real world history or *shudders* LOR clichés, I'm okay with it.